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Trials For Parents Who Chose Faith Over Medicine
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Worm
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Old Mar 5, 2009, 01:48 AM #51 of 107
That's nice, but in order to have a society that's not a complete shithole, we have to say that some people's valuations are stupid and wrong. No one cares if a criminal thinks--as almost all do--that his or her crime was justified.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
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Old Mar 5, 2009, 02:31 AM 1 1 #52 of 107
This is from the tl;dr part of Brady's post:

Quote:
The Neumanns, who had operated a coffee shop, Monkey Mo’s, in this middle-class suburb in the North Woods, are known locally as followers of an online faith outreach group called Unleavened Bread Ministries, run by a preacher, David Eells. The site shares stories of faith healing and talks about the end of the world.

An essay on the site signed Pastor Bob states that the Bible calls for healing by faith alone. “Jesus never sent anyone to a doctor or a hospital,” the essay says. “Jesus offered healing by one means only! Healing was by faith.”
Now, if I remember correctly, Jesus was the Son of God, right? So, he had certain abilities, right? Not to mention a smaller population.

Well, I don't think God has any other offspring, so why wouldn't it stand to reason that God would give man (who is created in God's image) the ability to learn to heal in the absence of Jesus? It's not as direct as Jesus' method--but it still works.

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Old Mar 5, 2009, 03:04 AM #53 of 107
Originally Posted by Leknaat
Well, I don't think God has any other offspring, so why wouldn't it stand to reason that God would give man (who is created in God's image) the ability to learn to heal in the absence of Jesus? It's not as direct as Jesus' method--but it still works.
Following that train of thought, God did give man the ability to heal in the absence of Jesus in the form of knowledge and reason that led to the development of modern medicine. These people are just nutcases who think Jesus or whoever will do the work for them if they close their eyes and pray hard enough.

I was speaking idiomatically.
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Old Mar 5, 2009, 04:58 AM #54 of 107
That's my point, Tritoch, but I guess mt previous post was a little unclear. Let's see if I can clear it up.

1) The Neumann's follow a religion that advocates faith healing because Jesus healed by faith.
2) Jesus was the actual Son of God, so he had certain abilities normal man didn't.
3) Jesus--depending on your beliefs--does or doesn't still walk among us--but he can't be everywhere.
4) God didn't have any other children.
5) God made it possible for normal man to learn how to heal.

Bottom line: the Neumann's should have realized that the doctor was put on this earth by God.

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Last edited by Leknaat; Mar 5, 2009 at 05:09 AM.
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Old Mar 5, 2009, 05:55 AM Local time: Mar 5, 2009, 04:55 AM #55 of 107
(long time lurker, first time poster here) I just had a random quote pop into my head from reading the thread.

"If I break my leg, I believe it happened for a reason. I believe God wanted me to break my leg. I also believe He wants me to put a cast on it." from an episode of House of all places. Still, sums up how I'd put it better than I could.

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Old Mar 5, 2009, 11:08 AM Local time: Mar 5, 2009, 10:08 AM 1 #56 of 107
Just as a doctor is put on earth by God, so are rapists and murderers. Look, I completely disagree with what they did, but I would hope that my faith is more important to me than my country. Lives are not as important as souls, but as Christians they also need to accept the laws of their culture (Writings of Paul). If their faith and their culture clash, they follow their faith but have to take the consequences their culture provides.

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Old Mar 5, 2009, 11:26 AM Local time: Mar 5, 2009, 11:26 AM 2 #57 of 107
Look, I completely disagree with what they did, but I would hope that my faith is more important to me than my country.
I don't know what country you are from, and I really don't give a fuck, but this comment right here has to be one of the most selfish, self centered things I have every fucking heard in my life. Yes, God wants you to follow his words, and he gives you tests of faith and blah blah blah, but if you take more pride in caring more about a fairy tale book than another human being's life, then you sir are a god damn asshole.

I do of course mean human beings in general. It's perfectly okay to say "Hey, the bible is cooler than Jimmy down the street who catapults frogs into Old lady Sanderson's yard."

Quote:
Lives are not as important as souls
Tell that to someone laying in bed, suffering immensely and wanting help, and the only two people in the world that supposedly love them unconditionally are pretty much saying that some magical force will make them feel better and refuse to help said dying person in anyway.

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Old Mar 5, 2009, 11:29 AM #58 of 107
You guys are thinking of this very rationally, so let me put it in a way the parents likely thought of it: their child's eternal soul was worth infinitely (like, in a very mathmatical sense) more than their child's life. I'm not saying I agree with their theology, but you're all very ignorant of the magnitude they believed their decision was - far more than you all think.
No God worth believing in will hold the actions of the parent against the child.

No government worth respect will refuse to punish a parent who kills their child through neglect, regardless of their religious beliefs.

Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. Look it up.

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Old Mar 5, 2009, 11:35 AM Local time: Mar 5, 2009, 10:35 AM 2 #59 of 107
I don't know what country you are from, and I really don't give a fuck, but this comment right here has to be one of the most selfish, self centered things I have every fucking heard in my life. Yes, God wants you to follow his words, and he gives you tests of faith and blah blah blah, but if you take more pride in caring more about a fairy tale book than another human being's life, then you sir are a god damn asshole.

I do of course mean human beings in general. It's perfectly okay to say "Hey, the bible is cooler than Jimmy down the street who catapults frogs into Old lady Sanderson's yard."



Tell that to someone laying in bed, suffering immensely and wanting help, and the only two people in the world that supposedly love them unconditionally are pretty much saying that some magical force will make them feel better and refuse to help said dying person in anyway.
Then it's merely a difference in opinion. I try as much as possible to follow the social gospel, which teaches that helping human suffering is indeed part of God's ministry and it is part of our mission on earth to relieve that suffering. I believe wholely in the sanctity of human life.

However, within my religious context, our funerals are just as much a time of happy remembrance as mourning. We do not believe that death is the worst thing in the world, because we entirely believe that there is an afterlife and that the deceased is with God. Our funerals are beautiful and meaningful, I assure you, but we choose to celebrate life at them.

I have very little national pride. I am surrounded by western hypocracy and as much as people hate on Christianity I hate on the "democratic" west (which is a horrible misnomer, anyway). The belief that we can police the world and know better than everyone is exactly the reason people aquate these philosophies with Christianity, much like it is the warfaring few in the middle east who give a bad name to Islam. As Christ said, though, "give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." I accept that I am a citizen of my country and accept that that comes with certain responsibilities. I am not ignorant of the world merely because I don't conform completely to humanism. There was a world of intelligence and caring before the englightenment, and we have already passed the humanist era which many have forgotten. Welcome to Post-modernism. Not everything that is true is quantifiable.

I appreciate that what you say you say out of love for your fellow man, but know that there are many caring Christians who do the same, who do not judge, and who are quite open to other faiths. A belief in God is not the same as ignorance, but a denial in the religious lives of others is.

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Old Mar 5, 2009, 11:45 AM 1 #60 of 107
I appreciate that what you say you say out of love for your fellow man, but know that there are many caring Christians who do the same, who do not judge, and who are quite open to other faiths. A belief in God is not the same as ignorance, but a denial in the religious lives of others is.
What are your opinions re: ritual sacrifice?

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Old Mar 5, 2009, 11:45 AM #61 of 107
hey guys the 9/11 dudes really believed in what they did

like, a lot

so please don't be ignorant about that

I was speaking idiomatically.
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Old Mar 5, 2009, 11:50 AM Local time: Mar 5, 2009, 10:50 AM 1 #62 of 107
If someone writes a history of Nazi Germany, it does not make them a Nazi.

If someone writes a book on the history of Rape, it doesn't mean they support it.

If I'm trying to explain what was going on in their head and tell you why it was rational, it doesn't mean I agree with them or that I'm not frustrated with the situation. Yes, just like the guys on 9/11. I understand why they did what they did. It wasn't right. But I understand why.

Ignorance does not mean not accepting something as right. It means not accpeting it as true. Something can be true but morally wrong. Unless you deny the holocaust because it was morally wrong?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
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Old Mar 5, 2009, 11:53 AM #63 of 107
Okay, thanks for speaking up for all the oppressed child killers out there. That was a refreshing outlook! It is important to, when denouncing someone for killing their child, to step back and understand how demented they were such that there was some rationale that explains why they did it. If we didn't do that, we'd be...

Well, anyway. Thanks for your input!

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Old Mar 5, 2009, 11:53 AM #64 of 107
So, you came into this thread to belabor an incredibly obvious point that has no special relevance to the topic at hand and call everyone ignorant at the same time?

dammit lurker stop being faster

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Old Mar 5, 2009, 11:54 AM Local time: Mar 5, 2009, 11:54 AM #65 of 107
A belief in God is not the same as ignorance, but a denial in the religious lives of others is.
Christianity itself was a huge movement of denial of other religions before it. Hell, Christianity used to kill every single person that came along that didn't believe in THEIR GOD.

I'm not denying people to believe in a fairy tale, I mean no one denied me as a child my belief in santa claus or the tooth fairy...but there has to be a time where everyone grows up and realize that characters of lore and fantasy are just that.

Besides Ness...what if this article had read: "Scientologists deny child medical care based on faith"? Would you feel any different?

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Old Mar 5, 2009, 11:55 AM 4 #66 of 107
The word "rational" does not mean what you appear to think it means

hint: someone is not rational simply because they have a rationale

the words are similar-looking but different

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Old Mar 5, 2009, 12:26 PM Local time: Mar 5, 2009, 11:26 AM 1 #67 of 107
Ok, at this point the thread is so derailed I don't feel guilty in defending myself. Rational means exactly how I used it.

Rational means according to reason (according to Dictionary.com).

Reason means having a basis or cause.

Rationality does not mean conforming to American beliefs, and I'm sorry if I have to specify that. It merely means that your actions have a pattern behind them, whether accepted by general society or not. If this is not how you are used to using the word rational, then I'm sorry that you and the dictionary have a difference of opinion.

Oh, and the only difference between rationale and rational is one is an adjective and the other a noun.

Grail, I wholeheartedly hope that you are not actually trying to actually start a discussion here and now on religion, because we both know how that ends up on forums. I was not trying to enforce my beliefs on anyone, nor was I arguing the absolute goodness or truth of it. Yours is an example of someone making an irrational comment. I do not call all americans slave drivers because, at one time, it was a major driving force behind their economy. The whole idea of the socio-economical move to the enlightenment is that we are not defined by our ancestors.

As per the comment on scientology, once again the point is missed. I disagree with these parents. I think they should receive prison time, or at least have their child taken away from them. This is the lawful and right thing to do. Do I have a beef with scientology? Yes, quite. But it isn't because it isn't Christian. I am quite tolerant of Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Budhism, and most forms of Wicka. If a person from any of these faiths did the same thing as these parents, I would still say it was morally wrong.

Finally, Salient worm, I was not calling everyone ignorant. I merely said that if you can't appreciate that people have religious beliefs you are ignorant. I did NOT say that if you disagree with them you are ignorant. You can believe whatever you want about anyone or anything, but as long as you accept that it is real than you are not ignorant of it. I'm merely defining what the word means. I was not intending to call anyone here ignorant, just stating a fact and reminding us that we disagree with eachother but at least we (mostly) believe each other has merit. If you disagree with that last part then say so, and I won't post here again, not because I particularily care about what you think, but because if there isn't some level of basic mutual appreciation then conversations go nowhere, and thats worth no-one's time.

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Old Mar 5, 2009, 12:29 PM #68 of 107
Rational means according to reason (according to Dictionary.com).

Reason means having a basis or cause.
Having reason is not the same as having a reason

English is complicated like that

For example, children possess many reasons for their behavior (want toys, hate girls, etc) but they are not considered to possess reason because they are not rational actors in the way that adults are.

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Old Mar 5, 2009, 12:31 PM Local time: Mar 5, 2009, 11:31 AM #69 of 107
Fine.
–verb (used without object)
8. to think or argue in a logical manner.

Logic is not finite. People can have different logic and still both be reasoning.

I was speaking idiomatically.
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Old Mar 5, 2009, 12:32 PM #70 of 107
All these words and yet NOTHING to the defense of ritual sacrifice

am I invisible or something

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Old Mar 5, 2009, 12:36 PM Local time: Mar 5, 2009, 11:36 AM #71 of 107
I have nothing to say, I have someone who keeps me in fresh stock of live skinned cats, and I'm not about to stop abusing that. Ritual sacrifice is just handy when in a tight bind.

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Old Mar 5, 2009, 12:38 PM #72 of 107
lol so randum

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Old Mar 5, 2009, 12:42 PM #73 of 107
What about people who mutilate genitalia for sake of religion? If they're a christian, and don't get a flap of skin cut off their penis for health issues, does that mean their soul is in peril?

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Old Mar 5, 2009, 12:57 PM #74 of 107
People can have different logic and still both be reasoning.
They can have different premises, but you cannot have "different logic" any more than you can have "different math."

I understand what you are saying here, that people do not make "irrational" decisions, that they truly believe they are always making the best choice possible. But, what we mean when we call someone rational, if the word is to have any use at all, is that their arguments are generally sound. For people like those in the OP, we usually find that even if the choice is rational, they made an error at some point in their valuations.

Quote:
I was not calling everyone ignorant. I merely said that if you can't appreciate that people have religious beliefs you are ignorant.
you're all very ignorant of the magnitude they believed their decision was
Oh, okay, so you were just making the retarded assumption that people in this thread don't know that heaven is supposed to be infinitely good?

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Old Mar 5, 2009, 01:21 PM Local time: Mar 5, 2009, 12:21 PM 1 #75 of 107
Assuming a higher value is better ...

Where an expected lifespan is 80 ...

80/80 + heaven(infinite) = infinite
80 + heaven - heaven = 80.

This, I'm sure, is what they were thinking. I'm not saying that giving healthcare to your kids is bad. I'm saying this is what THEY were thinking.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
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