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[PS3] Cooking Guide: Can't Decide What To Eat? PROTIP: THIS IS THE MGS4 THREAD
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Sexninja
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Old Apr 30, 2006, 06:51 AM Local time: Apr 30, 2006, 04:51 PM #76 of 1533
Snake with beard looks cool...nice fanjob.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?
Cel
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Old Apr 30, 2006, 03:34 PM Local time: Apr 30, 2006, 12:34 PM #77 of 1533
Btw, to an earlier post I read, you're not alone. The only true MGS to me is the first one for playstation, after that, part 2 started getting corny and more confusing than it really needed to be, MGS3 was just one big piece of garbage, Hideo is just like Lucas, he may be able to come up with good ides, but he can't write a script worth a shit. About 90% of the lines AND character names were so horribly corny, that I had to put the game down. I was actually waiting for MGS4, but now they make him look old and you're all saying it's supposedly something about his clone thing, but then otacon is also old, so that doesn't really say anything to me.

I've gotten in arguments before about this, it's fine if you guys like MGS3 and still love it, but I couldn't get past the fact that the main bosses' names started with "The" and ended with some retarded word. I don't think even the japanese language could've saved it from making me disgusted.

We'll see how MGS4 goes, but as far as i'm concerned, he doesn't even want to work on MGS games at all, he even said so himself, that he wanted to finish off the games, but then he keeps making them on cliffhangers, so that's his own fault. If he really wants to move on, he should at least let someone else work on it, instead of butchering up the story.

my 2 cents, and my opinion alone.

I was speaking idiomatically.
Aardark
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Old Apr 30, 2006, 03:40 PM Local time: Apr 30, 2006, 09:40 PM #78 of 1533
Originally Posted by Faust 72
Which Snake would you prefer, the one without stache or the with beard??



The latter one looks like the cliche 'badass grizzled action hero'. At least moustache is something different; I'm glad that Hideo Kojima is not desperately trying to appeal to kids that think everything should look as 'cool' as possible.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
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Old Apr 30, 2006, 08:37 PM Local time: Apr 30, 2006, 10:37 PM #79 of 1533
Originally Posted by Cel
Btw, to an earlier post I read, you're not alone. The only true MGS to me is the first one for playstation, after that, part 2 started getting corny and more confusing than it really needed to be, MGS3 was just one big piece of garbage, Hideo is just like Lucas, he may be able to come up with good ides, but he can't write a script worth a shit. About 90% of the lines AND character names were so horribly corny, that I had to put the game down. I was actually waiting for MGS4, but now they make him look old and you're all saying it's supposedly something about his clone thing, but then otacon is also old, so that doesn't really say anything to me.

I've gotten in arguments before about this, it's fine if you guys like MGS3 and still love it, but I couldn't get past the fact that the main bosses' names started with "The" and ended with some retarded word. I don't think even the japanese language could've saved it from making me disgusted.

We'll see how MGS4 goes, but as far as i'm concerned, he doesn't even want to work on MGS games at all, he even said so himself, that he wanted to finish off the games, but then he keeps making them on cliffhangers, so that's his own fault. If he really wants to move on, he should at least let someone else work on it, instead of butchering up the story.

my 2 cents, and my opinion alone.
Hell, okay, you're entitled to your opinion. Some of your reasons are a little valid, but I'm going to have to dissagree to your view using logic.

As it is, you begin with the argument, "part 2 started getting corny and more confusing than it really needed to be." That's really not true at all, in fact, MGS2's storyline is not complicated in the least bit if time is taken out to understand what is said in the codec conversation of GW's Colonel Cambell. That 30 minute or so conversation outlines the exact plan of the S3 program with quite a lot of detail.

Secondly, your argument for MGS3 is put as, "MGS3 was just one big piece of garbage." Well, that's fantastic, but you give not a single bit of evidence toward the significance and causes of what makes the game a "pice of garbage." All you ever state is the fact that the enemy bosses have "retarded names". Okay, fantastic, ever heard of codenames? I can't give you any other explaination other than the fact that they're just other ways of saying 'echo' 'bravo' or the sort, christ, it may even be the victim of an iffy Japanese to English translation, but that's even doubtful.

I really have no other way to completely prove your argument false now, so I'll just leave the discussion open then.

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SketchTheArtist
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Old Apr 30, 2006, 10:21 PM Local time: May 1, 2006, 12:21 AM #80 of 1533
Originally Posted by Aardark
I'm glad that Hideo Kojima is not desperately trying to appeal to kids that think everything should look as 'cool' as possible.
Let's not forget that Kojima was the one who created Raiden in order to please the young Japanese chicks.

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Cel
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Old Apr 30, 2006, 11:52 PM Local time: Apr 30, 2006, 08:52 PM #81 of 1533
Originally Posted by Pietak
Hell, okay, you're entitled to your opinion. Some of your reasons are a little valid, but I'm going to have to dissagree to your view using logic.

As it is, you begin with the argument, "part 2 started getting corny and more confusing than it really needed to be." That's really not true at all, in fact, MGS2's storyline is not complicated in the least bit if time is taken out to understand what is said in the codec conversation of GW's Colonel Cambell. That 30 minute or so conversation outlines the exact plan of the S3 program with quite a lot of detail.

Secondly, your argument for MGS3 is put as, "MGS3 was just one big piece of garbage." Well, that's fantastic, but you give not a single bit of evidence toward the significance and causes of what makes the game a "pice of garbage." All you ever state is the fact that the enemy bosses have "retarded names". Okay, fantastic, ever heard of codenames? I can't give you any other explaination other than the fact that they're just other ways of saying 'echo' 'bravo' or the sort, christ, it may even be the victim of an iffy Japanese to English translation, but that's even doubtful.

I really have no other way to completely prove your argument false now, so I'll just leave the discussion open then.
Well yeah, they are code names, but it's just that they weren't all original like in the rest of the games. They're all part of the same squad sure, but so were the others in part 1 and 2, it's not so much that I completely despise part 3, it's just that I noticed a lot of iffy things as soon as I started playing it. For example:

Voice Actors: it seemed like David Hayter was losing his touch, and his voice started sounding a little too forced, and you could almost hear his "real" voice behind the acting. Other actors also over-acted their parts, I really love Ocelot but some parts and lines he was given just.. made him out to be like one of those douche bags that hang around DDR machines and start 'shadowing' as they call it.(And by that, I mean his mannerisms) It was funny that he dropped his gun when he started flipping it in his hand, at least it showed that he wasn't all 'that' just yet. But then his little 'roar' to call on his squad really made me laugh cuz it sounded so damn lame, especially since I didn't know what it was for at first. (finding out what it was after, really made no difference)

Script: So it doesn't seem to be all his forte and he's not as bad as Lucas, so that may have been a bad comparison, he does have some good lines. But jesus, at the beggining of the game when Snake talks to The Boss, she just.. oh god... she goes on ranting about what it is to be a soldier... it's like... listen up 'hoe', we already know what it is to be a soldier, it's only been pounded into us the past 2 games, plus you're not talking to a f'ing n00b, you're talking to THE snake, even on part 3 he's revered as a great soldier, so why the hell do we even need that speech from her? I complain because it went on for far too long and it was unnecessary to begin with. See what I mean? if you look back at a couple of things, you'll know what i'm talking about.

About part 2: Yeah it made some sense, and sure they explained it, but it wasn't feasible. I didn't say "SURE! that's awesome", it was more like.... "*vomit*". They pretty much ruined a couple of things about the story:

A) They made part 1 to be completely insignificant of a story and more of a "prelude" of things to come.

B) Liquid living in ocelot's arm. I have nothing to say, this is the stupidest idea, I don't care what explanation he can come up with. I don't care if it's an act of god, I don't care if liquid is a damn robot, I don't care if they make it make sense, because it's just a really stupid idea. He shouldn't have killed liquid if he liked him that much, now he wants to bring him back as a damn arm, that's great. Nuff said.

C) Metal Gear Ray is supposed to be SO much more powerful than Rex, yet they managed to destroy one. Sweet, k. Now a shit load more come out, one after another, awesome battle, sweet background, it was great. Yet ... hold on a second, that makes out Rex to be a piece of shit, Raiden doesn't just kill MGR, he kills like 20 of them. That really makes any metal gear out to be a piece of crap, main character or not, they really need to give some props to the machine from which the game derives it's name from.

D) Vamp is an example of something corny done right. He didn't make sense with his whole ... vampire crap in a very unusual setting, but his personality and background, and voice totally made up for it. And he's also like the only character they didn't make an action figure out of. Funny eh?

E) MGS1 > MGS2 Final Battle. The music is so anti-climatic in the end, I didn't even know I was at the last battle, I loved the gameplay, and holding a katana, there's no better weapon in my little world, but the music is all ... blah, techno-ish and anti-climatic, it sounded like something from another game, like a mid-boss music, so blah.

In the end, I just weigh overall what the game as a whole has to offer and not exactly the series. I know MGS3 has an awesome final battle music and setting, and that's how it should be, cinematic, climatic and a soundtrack worthy of recognition. It's too bad the rest of the game falls short with their un-original enemies that came out of the Ginyu force or some equally annoying power ranger squad. What's worse is that they have such shallow stories, they don't even compare to any character from part 1 or 2, it's a shame really but that's what I liked so much about MGS, is that even enemies in this story aren't really enemies sometimes, they have their own reasons for fighting and you can see their side of the story and actually feel sorry for them. But Snake in the end has to face off against them because it's the path they've chosen, or whatever, etc. Sniper Wolf anyone? Psycho Mantis?

Yeah, so anyways. That's why I think MGS3 is garbage and MGS2 is corny and disgracing. Yet I bought all the action figures to part 2. I like 'em all to some degree, but I can't agree when someone says "they keep getting better", because they're not. They retain some key values, but they disregard the rest of the elements that make it a good game, ALL around.

You don't have to agree with me, and i'd love to hear your opinion on some of the things I've complained about, i'm not being sarcastic either, I just wanna see what others think and if it bothered them at all. Let me know what you think.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Last edited by Cel; Apr 30, 2006 at 11:59 PM.
Keym
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Old May 1, 2006, 01:13 AM Local time: May 1, 2006, 03:13 AM #82 of 1533
Oh man. George Lucas? It's a freakin videogame, not a movie. If you don't like it, don't play it. Or... don't "watch" it in your case, I guess.

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Old May 1, 2006, 01:31 AM Local time: Apr 30, 2006, 10:31 PM #83 of 1533
Originally Posted by Cel
C) Metal Gear Ray is supposed to be SO much more powerful than Rex, yet they managed to destroy one. Sweet, k. Now a shit load more come out, one after another, awesome battle, sweet background, it was great. Yet ... hold on a second, that makes out Rex to be a piece of shit, Raiden doesn't just kill MGR, he kills like 20 of them. That really makes any metal gear out to be a piece of crap, main character or not, they really need to give some props to the machine from which the game derives it's name from.
I didn't bother to read through every chunk of your careful analysis and breakdown of MGS2 and the series prequel, MGS3. That said, I've probably missed out on some more inconsistencies in your review. This, however, caught my eye and I couldn't help but to be a little fag about it (oh shaaaame on me).

The Ray units Raiden destroyed were all mass-produced copies of the prototype Ocelot stole two years before. They were meant to be used as "soldiers" to protect Arsenal Gear and lacked the optimum firepower a full-sized Ray had. In addition, they were designed to take down other Metal Gears. Rex was never a particularly powerful machine on it's own (well, in mecha terms), but it's biggest strength came in it's nuclear payload.

I'm done being a nerd for now.

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Aardark
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Old May 1, 2006, 02:30 AM Local time: May 1, 2006, 08:30 AM #84 of 1533
Originally Posted by SketchTheArtist
Let's not forget that Kojima was the one who created Raiden in order to please the young Japanese chicks.
Yes, I thought that was quite stupid. Well, I'm fairly certain that Kojima was joking when he said they conducted a survey among high school girls and based Raiden on that, but either way, for me it's even more of a reason to be glad that he's not doing it a second time.

Edit:
Quote:
The Boss, she just.. oh god... she goes on ranting about what it is to be a soldier... it's like... listen up 'hoe', we already know what it is to be a soldier, it's only been pounded into us the past 2 games, plus you're not talking to a f'ing n00b, you're talking to THE snake, even on part 3 he's revered as a great soldier, so why the hell do we even need that speech from her? I complain because it went on for far too long and it was unnecessary to begin with. See what I mean?


How ya doing, buddy?
Nothing wrong with not being strong
Nothing says we need to beat what's wrong
Nothing manmade remains made long
That's a debt we can't back out of

Last edited by Aardark; May 1, 2006 at 02:52 AM.
Cel
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Old May 1, 2006, 02:31 AM Local time: Apr 30, 2006, 11:31 PM #85 of 1533
Originally Posted by Kurado
I didn't bother to read through every chunk of your careful analysis and breakdown of MGS2 and the series prequel, MGS3. That said, I've probably missed out on some more inconsistencies in your review. This, however, caught my eye and I couldn't help but to be a little fag about it (oh shaaaame on me).

The Ray units Raiden destroyed were all mass-produced copies of the prototype Ocelot stole two years before. They were meant to be used as "soldiers" to protect Arsenal Gear and lacked the optimum firepower a full-sized Ray had. In addition, they were designed to take down other Metal Gears. Rex was never a particularly powerful machine on it's own (well, in mecha terms), but it's biggest strength came in it's nuclear payload.

I'm done being a nerd for now.
Well that explains that part, at least it makes a little more sense now.

Originally Posted by Keym
Oh man. George Lucas? It's a freakin videogame, not a movie. If you don't like it, don't play it. Or... don't "watch" it in your case, I guess.
There's a reason why at the end credits of every game out there they credit someone with the title of "director".

Both movies and games have scripts, both have camera angles, both have acting supervision, both have animators, special effects, music coordinators, and it's all decided by one man alone in the end. The Director. heh, that should've been a secret boss in MGS3 huh? and when you beat him, he should die yelling in an echoey voice -
"Cut cut cut cut..."

And about not playing it, thanks for the suggestion, already way ahead of you.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Last edited by Cel; May 1, 2006 at 02:37 AM.
Mobius One
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Old May 1, 2006, 03:05 AM Local time: May 1, 2006, 04:05 AM #86 of 1533
::joins argument to clear some stuff up::

Originally Posted by Cel
Well yeah, they are code names, but it's just that they weren't all original like in the rest of the games. They're all part of the same squad sure, but so were the others in part 1 and 2, it's not so much that I completely despise part 3, it's just that I noticed a lot of iffy things as soon as I started playing it.
The "corny" bosses of MGS3 were intentionally de-emphasized in order to highlight the story of Snake and the Boss.


Quote:
Voice Actors: it seemed like David Hayter was losing his touch, and his voice started sounding a little too forced, and you could almost hear his "real" voice behind the acting.
No, he chaged his voice on purpose to sound different from Solid Snake's in order to emphasize Big Boss as a seperate character. That's fine if you don't like it, but few people had any problems with it.

Quote:
Other actors also over-acted their parts, I really love Ocelot but some parts and lines he was given just.. made him out to be like one of those douche bags that hang around DDR machines and start 'shadowing' as they call it.(And by that, I mean his mannerisms) It was funny that he dropped his gun when he started flipping it in his hand, at least it showed that he wasn't all 'that' just yet. But then his little 'roar' to call on his squad really made me laugh cuz it sounded so damn lame, especially since I didn't know what it was for at first. (finding out what it was after, really made no difference)
What's your point here? You're giving reasons why you like Ocelot. Yes, the "meow" thing was wierd, but it's not that big a deal. You do know that Ocelot was a CIA agent (or rather an agent of the Philosophers) sent to ensure that Snake completed his mission right? Yet he had to appear like he was working for Volgin, thus much of his odd behavior durring the game is explained as his attempt to balance his duty with his role (like when he pulls a gun on Volgin).

Quote:
Script: So it doesn't seem to be all his forte and he's not as bad as Lucas, so that may have been a bad comparison, he does have some good lines. But jesus, at the beggining of the game when Snake talks to The Boss, she just.. oh god... she goes on ranting about what it is to be a soldier... it's like... listen up 'hoe', we already know what it is to be a soldier, it's only been pounded into us the past 2 games, plus you're not talking to a f'ing n00b, you're talking to THE snake, even on part 3 he's revered as a great soldier, so why the hell do we even need that speech from her? I complain because it went on for far too long and it was unnecessary to begin with. See what I mean? if you look back at a couple of things, you'll know what i'm talking about.
You know you can skip the radio conversations right? At that point in the game Snake was still young and had far less experience than the Boss. Since the Boss was his mentor it's only natural that she try to teach him things. And it wasn't that long, you just seem impatient. Long dialogue has been part of the series since the first game, you should be used to it by now. It's not like the Boss' speeches were pointless. The initial conversation was there in order to clue us in to Snake's relationship to the Boss. And did you just call the Boss a "hoe"? She kicked Snake's ass more than enough times durring the game to earn at least a bit of respect from the likes of you.

If those are your only reasons for hating MGS3, then those are pretty weak.

Quote:
About part 2: Yeah it made some sense, and sure they explained it, but it wasn't feasible. I didn't say "SURE! that's awesome", it was more like.... "*vomit*". They pretty much ruined a couple of things about the story:

A) They made part 1 to be completely insignificant of a story and more of a "prelude" of things to come.
Well MGS2 was intentianally absurd. The series takes alot of inspiration from those absurd 80's action movies (like Escape from New York for example), so Kojima attempted to emmulate their style. But there's another reason for it's absurdity: it's postmodern. Postmodernism is all about decayed reality. Basically nothing is real anymore, we live in a time when we are surrounded by the false. MGS2's absurd and unfeasable things fit into this theme because they are meant to be "too unreal", in other words, the events of the game are events that could *only* happen in a game. Since Raiden was intended to be the quintessential "videogame personality" (his character arose from Kojima's thought of "I wonder what videogame characters are like when the game is not being played".) Even Raiden is not real. The various wierd and unfeasable things in the game were all there in order to highlight that it is not real and could not happen. If you don't like it, that's fine. Just know that it was all there for a purpose.

As far as your "A)" goes, MGS2 didn't really make the first game out to be insignificant. What it did was show us that MGS1 was only a small episode in a larger picture. MGS2 didn't make MGS1 any less great, and if you think it did then I have no idea where you get that from.

Quote:
B) Liquid living in ocelot's arm. I have nothing to say, this is the stupidest idea, I don't care what explanation he can come up with. I don't care if it's an act of god, I don't care if liquid is a damn robot, I don't care if they make it make sense, because it's just a really stupid idea. He shouldn't have killed liquid if he liked him that much, now he wants to bring him back as a damn arm, that's great. Nuff said.
Well that's fine if you think it's stupid, but I don't. It's probably some sort of biochip in Liquid's arm containing a construct of Liquid's mind, that's my hypothesis at least. The series has many Cyberpunk themes, so this explanation would fit the series well. But there could be other explanations. The cause *could* be supernatural (though I doubt it since Kojima said he will explain it all in MGS4, and simply writting it off as a supernatural cause would be the easy way out, and Kojima doesn't take the easy way out), but one of the great things about the MGS series is the ambiguity between supernatural sources of the various character's powers and technological causes. Fortune is a prime example. Until we found out that her powers were the cause of technology, we thought she was supernatural. Vamp's powers are probably due to technology as well. The thing is that Kojima leaves it up to us, the player, to decide whether we believe that the the supernatural exists, or if we believe technology is responsible. I don't hear you complaining about Psycho Mantis. You can't honestly tell me you think Mantis is cool in all his seemingly supernatural glory, and yet say you hate all the other "supernatural" occurances in the series.

Quote:
C) Metal Gear Ray is supposed to be SO much more powerful than Rex, yet they managed to destroy one. Sweet, k. Now a shit load more come out, one after another, awesome battle, sweet background, it was great. Yet ... hold on a second, that makes out Rex to be a piece of shit, Raiden doesn't just kill MGR, he kills like 20 of them. That really makes any metal gear out to be a piece of crap, main character or not, they really need to give some props to the machine from which the game derives it's name from.
What does power have anything to do with it? Ray was an anti-Metal Gear unit designed to destroy other Metal Gears, so yes, Rex wouldn't stand a chance against it. It wasn't really designed to take out infantry units, so Raiden did stand a chance against it. He was able to defeat so many because that's what the Patriots intended in the script they wrote. They wanted to test Raiden and see how far they could push him. I'm sure Solid Snake himself could have accomplished the same task, but he wasn't the puppet of the Patriots in MGS2. In any case, it's not like Ray makes Rex any less cool.

Quote:
D) Vamp is an example of something corny done right. He didn't make sense with his whole ... vampire crap in a very unusual setting, but his personality and background, and voice totally made up for it. And he's also like the only character they didn't make an action figure out of. Funny eh?
What's your point here?



Listen, I can't make you change your mind about not liking MGS2, but alot of your reasons for disliking it are pretty weak, and some of your hate seems to stem from your not truely understanding what Kojima was doing at all. You can hate it if you want, but you can't just say it never happened. MGS2 is an essential part of the series whether you like it or not. There's no ignoring it if you want to say you're a fan. I mean, it's freaking canon.


::end of talking::

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?


[ MOBIUS ]
Cel
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Old May 1, 2006, 04:01 AM Local time: May 1, 2006, 01:01 AM #87 of 1533
Originally Posted by Mobius One
::joins argument to clear some stuff up::


The "corny" bosses of MGS3 were intentionally de-emphasized in order to highlight the story of Snake and the Boss.
This was never stated as a fact, I dunno where you got that, that sounds more like your opinion.

Originally Posted by Mobius One
No, he chaged his voice on purpose to sound different from Solid Snake's in order to emphasize Big Boss as a seperate character. That's fine if you don't like it, but few people had any problems with it.
This also sounds like your opinion, mainly because there is no difference in the voice actors for the japanese version -and- he sounds the same in japanese.
Originally Posted by Mobius One
What's your point here? You're giving reasons why you like Ocelot. Yes, the "meow" thing was wierd, but it's not that big a deal. You do know that Ocelot was a CIA agent (or rather an agent of the Philosophers) sent to ensure that Snake completed his mission right? Yet he had to appear like he was working for Volgin, thus much of his odd behavior durring the game is explained as his attempt to balance his duty with his role (like when he pulls a gun on Volgin).
I'll agree with you on this, I do like Ocelot, but he just acted like a goof-ball more than half the time, except at the end.
Originally Posted by Mobius One
You know you can skip the radio conversations right? At that point in the game Snake was still young and had far less experience than the Boss. Since the Boss was his mentor it's only natural that she try to teach him things. And it wasn't that long, you just seem impatient. Long dialogue has been part of the series since the first game, you should be used to it by now. It's not like the Boss' speeches were pointless. The initial conversation was there in order to clue us in to Snake's relationship to the Boss. And did you just call the Boss a "hoe"? She kicked Snake's ass more than enough times durring the game to earn at least a bit of respect from the likes of you.

If those are your only reasons for hating MGS3, then those are pretty weak.
*shrug*, I'm not one to skip the conversations unless i've already beaten the game. I stand my ground on this one, they just need to not add redundant information. Regardless of it being a prequel, it's obviously apparent snake is not in basic training anymore.

I called her a 'hoe', :eyebrow: so what? bitch bettah recognize.

Originally Posted by Mobius One
Well MGS2 was intentianally absurd. The series takes alot of inspiration from those absurd 80's action movies (like Escape from New York for example), so Kojima attempted to emmulate their style. But there's another reason for it's absurdity: it's postmodern. Postmodernism is all about decayed reality. Basically nothing is real anymore, we live in a time when we are surrounded by the false. MGS2's absurd and unfeasable things fit into this theme because they are meant to be "too unreal", in other words, the events of the game are events that could *only* happen in a game. Since Raiden was intended to be the quintessential "videogame personality" (his character arose from Kojima's thought of "I wonder what videogame characters are like when the game is not being played".) Even Raiden is not real. The various wierd and unfeasable things in the game were all there in order to highlight that it is not real and could not happen. If you don't like it, that's fine. Just know that it was all there for a purpose.
Yup.

Originally Posted by Mobius One
As far as your "A)" goes, MGS2 didn't really make the first game out to be insignificant. What it did was show us that MGS1 was only a small episode in a larger picture. MGS2 didn't make MGS1 any less great, and if you think it did then I have no idea where you get that from.
The fact that they at one point or another say that everything was planned since shadow mosses, makes all the elements of MGS1 turn out to be in vain. They could've just left it alone, but then he has to bring this whole "what's real?" bullshit and ruin it. Thanks for the psychological storytelling, i'll stick with MGS1, that's where the series ends for me.

Originally Posted by Mobius One
Well that's fine if you think it's stupid, but I don't. It's probably some sort of biochip in Liquid's arm containing a construct of Liquid's mind, that's my hypothesis at least. The series has many Cyberpunk themes, so this explanation would fit the series well. But there could be other explanations. The cause *could* be supernatural (though I doubt it since Kojima said he will explain it all in MGS4, and simply writting it off as a supernatural cause would be the easy way out, and Kojima doesn't take the easy way out), but one of the great things about the MGS series is the ambiguity between supernatural sources of the various character's powers and technological causes. Fortune is a prime example. Until we found out that her powers were the cause of technology, we thought she was supernatural. Vamp's powers are probably due to technology as well. The thing is that Kojima leaves it up to us, the player, to decide whether we believe that the the supernatural exists, or if we believe technology is responsible. I don't hear you complaining about Psycho Mantis. You can't honestly tell me you think Mantis is cool in all his seemingly supernatural glory, and yet say you hate all the other "supernatural" occurances in the series.
You reeaaaally try to convince yourself to like it, it almost seems like you force yourself to find a reason to like it, most of the things you say are just hypothesis. Yes, I think Mantis was 'cool', mainly because he was a disturbed person with a fucked up face who was hiding much more than that, and spoke of his past and how he was born with that ability that came to engulf his childhood in flames. If you think any of the retards from MGS3 can live up to even one of the characters in part 1, I dare you to name one, and i'm talking about the "Ginyu force".

Originally Posted by Mobius One
What does power have anything to do with it? Ray was an anti-Metal Gear unit designed to destroy other Metal Gears, so yes, Rex wouldn't stand a chance against it. It wasn't really designed to take out infantry units, so Raiden did stand a chance against it. He was able to defeat so many because that's what the Patriots intended in the script they wrote. They wanted to test Raiden and see how far they could push him. I'm sure Solid Snake himself could have accomplished the same task, but he wasn't the puppet of the Patriots in MGS2. In any case, it's not like Ray makes Rex any less cool.
Kay.

Originally Posted by Mobius One
What's your point here?
That Vamp is an example of a corny character ache-type done right. Unlike the morons that spawned on part 3.

Originally Posted by Mobius One
Listen, I can't make you change your mind about not liking MGS2, but alot of your reasons for disliking it are pretty weak, and some of your hate seems to stem from your not truely understanding what Kojima was doing at all. You can hate it if you want, but you can't just say it never happened. MGS2 is an essential part of the series whether you like it or not. There's no ignoring it if you want to say you're a fan. I mean, it's freaking canon.


::end of talking::
I don't want to know what Kojima wants, it's Kojima's job to make others enjoy his games, he's not making games for himself. He didn't have to go and butcher up the series by introducing more supernatural crap and all this psyhocological plot twists, he could've just stuck with your typical "conquer the world" story with Ocelot, etc, and it would've been an oscar winner by itself. But after part 2, the story has become a clusterfuck of confusion instead of a solid story that anyone can understand right off the bat. Just because it's complicated, it doesn't always mean that it's good, I understood exactly where the story was headed, and that's why i'm angry with Hideo. Let's look at it in perspective:

MGS1 = Terrorists trying to steal nuclear weapon to sell to the blackmarket and make millions while at the same time ripping them off. Includes several plot twists, awesome dialogue, music, and action development. Great ending.

MGS2 = Starts out as a terrorist attack on an oil rig where a political figure is being held hostage for ransom. Develops into a plot twist and turns out what you thought was going on, wasn't. A plot twist off a plot twist happens. People die. Plot twist off a plot twist turns out to be another plot twist. Major plot twist: it was all A LIE. dun dun dun, all the information you've just been spoon fed, you can throw back out, it was all one giant psyhocological plot twist, awesome huh? yeah okay... show me the ending. Ending comes, more talk about life, and technology and what we are, what it is, what will be come of it, la la la la. Not buying the whole story.

My point, he goes from something concrete, and then develops it into something that WASN'T MGS to begin with. I don't care if you think part 2 is great, or if part 3 is the best, point is, all around, if you take ALL the elements of a game, the first, the original, still is better than part 2 and 3 combined.

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Old May 1, 2006, 04:47 AM #88 of 1533
Who are you to dictate what is or isn't "metal gear solid?" I'd say it is pretty fucking clear that MGS2, 3 and 4 are all "metal gear solid" seeing as it is his series and he is free to do whatever the hell he wants with it. Dislike something all you want, I personally can't stand Wild Arms 4 and no amount of reasoning from another human being will convince me otherwise but at the same time I know I have no logical reason to dislike it other than "it isn't my cup of tea" so I don't sit here complaining about the things which makes the game so great to other people.

You prefer realism, good for you. Not everyone cares about that and not everyone is going to agree that MGS1 is better just because it's less "out there" than the other games in the series.

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Old May 1, 2006, 04:53 AM Local time: May 1, 2006, 07:53 PM #89 of 1533
It's not like the original MGS had a more down to Earth storyline, either. Invisible cyborg ninja thing, gigantic robot, some idiot that threw endless amounts of furniture around the room with his mind, a brother that wouldn't die despite being shot at least four hundred freakin' thousand times in the face, Snake jumping over rockets and tanks, some guy that had a crow fetish. Oh man.

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Old May 1, 2006, 09:49 AM Local time: May 1, 2006, 10:49 AM #90 of 1533
Originally Posted by Infernal Monkey
It's not like the original MGS had a more down to Earth storyline, either. Invisible cyborg ninja thing, gigantic robot, some idiot that threw endless amounts of furniture around the room with his mind, a brother that wouldn't die despite being shot at least four hundred freakin' thousand times in the face, Snake jumping over rockets and tanks, some guy that had a crow fetish. Oh man.
Exactly. The first game was just as absurd and unfeasable as MGS2, it just wasn't as apparent because the bosses were likable.

Quote:
This was never stated as a fact, I dunno where you got that, that sounds more like your opinion.
Actually it was. Kojima said that he placed less emphasis on the bosses in MGS3 as to not distract from the story of Snake and the Boss. Besides, it's pretty obvious that that's what he was trying to do. Notice an utter lack of backstoty for the Cobra Unit. It wasn't important (and would backstory really have made them any cooler anyways?). Plus with all the complaints Kojima got about MGS2's overly lengthy dialogue I guess he figured boss ranting wouldn't really be missed.

Quote:
You reeaaaally try to convince yourself to like it, it almost seems like you force yourself to find a reason to like it, most of the things you say are just hypothesis. Yes, I think Mantis was 'cool', mainly because he was a disturbed person with a fucked up face who was hiding much more than that, and spoke of his past and how he was born with that ability that came to engulf his childhood in flames. If you think any of the retards from MGS3 can live up to even one of the characters in part 1, I dare you to name one, and i'm talking about the "Ginyu force".
I don't need to convince myself of anything. These conclusions can easily be derived by thinking more in-depth about the story and actually trying to analyze the meanings of things rather than just complaining that it wasn't to my liking. Mantis is just as absurd and goofy as any boss in the series, the only thing that makes him special is that he is a little pissed at the world (kind of like the Fury). You complain about some of the "supernatural" shit that goes on in the sequels, like Liquid's arm, but MGS1 had just as much of it as MGS2.

One possible reason for the Liquid/Ocelot mind possesion that I forgot to mention: The Sorrow is Ocelot's dad, so Ocelot likely has some of his dead channeling ability.

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Old May 1, 2006, 10:00 AM Local time: May 1, 2006, 12:00 PM #91 of 1533
Originally Posted by Cel
There's a reason why at the end credits of every game out there they credit someone with the title of "director".
There's a reason why it says PLAYSTATION 2 on the front of the DVD case. It's a GAME. You can NOT judge it as a movie, geez.

Originally Posted by Infernal Monkey
It's not like the original MGS had a more down to Earth storyline, either. Invisible cyborg ninja thing, gigantic robot, some idiot that threw endless amounts of furniture around the room with his mind, a brother that wouldn't die despite being shot at least four hundred freakin' thousand times in the face, Snake jumping over rockets and tanks, some guy that had a crow fetish. Oh man.
SOUNDS PRETTY REALISTIC TO ME.

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Old May 1, 2006, 11:12 AM Local time: May 1, 2006, 01:12 PM #92 of 1533
I'm gonna go Fanboy-ish right here now...

The reason why Ocelot can be possessed by Liquid's spirit is because Ocelot's parents were The Boss and The Sadness (is it that one?). It was confirmed in a an interview with Kojima-san. The Sadness had medium powers and could comunicate with the dead, so, a part of his 'gift' was bestowed upon his son.

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Old May 1, 2006, 11:15 AM Local time: May 1, 2006, 12:15 PM #93 of 1533
It's the Sorrow not the Sadness. That's only one possible explanation, it is not yet confirmed exactly why Liquid can possess Ocelot. MGS4 will explain all.

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Old May 1, 2006, 11:34 AM #94 of 1533
I don't get why that needs to be explained. Didn't Fortune magically have telekinetic powers, and isn't The Sorrow a ghost? So it's not like MGS is not within the realm of the supernatural.

A transplanted hand possessing its user was an episode of Angel.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
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Old May 1, 2006, 12:05 PM Local time: May 1, 2006, 02:05 PM #95 of 1533
Originally Posted by Mobius One
It's the Sorrow not the Sadness. That's only one possible explanation, it is not yet confirmed exactly why Liquid can possess Ocelot. MGS4 will explain all.
Yeah, Sorrow, that's the the one!

Well, it'll probably be a longer explanation in MGS4 but it was confirmed by Kojima that Sorrow and The Boss were romantically linked and that they had a child which was Ocelot. It was her baby that was abducted by The Patriots to raise as a spy.

Double Post:
Originally Posted by Eleo
and isn't The Sorrow a ghost?
He was human when The Boss and him had a relationship, but one day they found themselves on different sides of a conflict and one of them had to die. Sorrow sacrified himself to her and he became a ghost.

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Old May 1, 2006, 12:14 PM Local time: May 1, 2006, 01:14 PM #96 of 1533
Originally Posted by Eleo
I don't get why that needs to be explained. Didn't Fortune magically have telekinetic powers, and isn't The Sorrow a ghost? So it's not like MGS is not within the realm of the supernatural.

A transplanted hand possessing its user was an episode of Angel.
No, Fortune's powers came from that EM device that Ocelot had. Even at the end when it was supposedly deactivated, I'm willing to bet that it wasn't her own psychic powers that saved everyone, the Patriots simply turned the device back on (for what purpose we may never know, the Patriots are all about wierd mysterious goals). Perhaps when they got word that Solid Snake was still alive they wanted to spare him in order to study him or make him their puppet again.

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Old May 1, 2006, 01:24 PM #97 of 1533
Wasn't the Sorrow's special ability communication with the dead, as in being able to see and speak to them? Ocelot may have gained some of that making him vulnerable to whatever influence ole Liquid's ghost may have on him.

What I want to know, is what the hell happened to that runaway prototype Ray? Surely the patriots aren't gonna let their toy run free with a maniac at the helm?

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Old May 1, 2006, 01:54 PM Local time: May 1, 2006, 03:54 PM #98 of 1533
Mobius, you pretty much hit my consensus on the head right there. I think the argument is pretty much over right now, and really see no feasible counter to that.

Regarding another idea, isn't postmodernism based on the idea of relativism? To which is the belief of everyone having their own opinion, and there is no good or bad? That would technically say that the norm and abnormal are just as good. But:
Spoiler:
Doesn't GW's purpose outline a more "t" truth approach? Using conventional modernism? Using logic to decipher what should be revealed to the public, and what should be regarded as useless information?

If MGS2 is indeed based on the decayed reality view of postmodernism, I really find that quite comical, as compared to Kojima's modernist view of, "People really should depend on their own senses, on their own abilities, to try to sense what is good and bad [disregarding populist views]" -OPM Interview. It's really interesting seeing Kojima's application of these ideas.

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Old May 1, 2006, 01:55 PM Local time: May 1, 2006, 10:55 AM #99 of 1533
Originally Posted by Keym
There's a reason why it says PLAYSTATION 2 on the front of the DVD case. It's a GAME. You can NOT judge it as a movie, geez.
The line between movies and games is starting to blur today, in case you didn't know. They're both being categorized as entertainment, it's not a matter of whether you agree or not, it's what's happening to the industry. If you knew how much money the industry makes in comparison to big budget films, you'd know that the game industry is going to soon overtake the movies. The only difference from games is that you get to play them.

Originally Posted by Mobius One
Exactly. The first game was just as absurd and unfeasable as MGS2, it just wasn't as apparent because the bosses were likable.
Which is exactly why I say that "corny" can be done right (like with vamp). Just because it had asburd ideas, it doesn't mean that they can't be done right, that's why I say MGS1 is still the best, it's more believable.

Originally Posted by Mobius One
Actually it was. Kojima said that he placed less emphasis on the bosses in MGS3 as to not distract from the story of Snake and the Boss. Besides, it's pretty obvious that that's what he was trying to do. Notice an utter lack of backstoty for the Cobra Unit. It wasn't important (and would backstory really have made them any cooler anyways?). Plus with all the complaints Kojima got about MGS2's overly lengthy dialogue I guess he figured boss ranting wouldn't really be missed.
So he listened to people for once?.. that can be a good and a bad thing.

Originally Posted by Mobius One
I don't need to convince myself of anything. These conclusions can easily be derived by thinking more in-depth about the story and actually trying to analyze the meanings of things rather than just complaining that it wasn't to my liking. Mantis is just as absurd and goofy as any boss in the series, the only thing that makes him special is that he is a little pissed at the world (kind of like the Fury). You complain about some of the "supernatural" shit that goes on in the sequels, like Liquid's arm, but MGS1 had just as much of it as MGS2.
Like I keep saying, at least it was done right in my opinion. A line here and there in part 3 would've made all the difference, but he stray'd away from it because people complained about long boss lines?.. I don't get it.
Originally Posted by Mobius One
One possible reason for the Liquid/Ocelot mind possesion that I forgot to mention: The Sorrow is Ocelot's dad, so Ocelot likely has some of his dead channeling ability.
Okay, but it still doesn't make it any better. It's a freaking ARM.

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Last edited by Cel; May 1, 2006 at 02:08 PM.
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Old May 1, 2006, 02:20 PM Local time: May 1, 2006, 04:20 PM #100 of 1533
Originally Posted by Cel
The line between movies and games is starting to blur today, in case you didn't know. They're both being categorized as entertainment, it's not a matter of whether you agree or not, it's what's happening to the industry.
Yes.

Originally Posted by cel
If you knew how much money the industry makes in comparison to big budget films, you'd know that the game industry is going to soon overtake the movies.
What? Overtake the movies? I'm done talking here. Not worth it.

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