[Rant] LeHah's Abandonware Emporium

Originally Posted by Pangalin

And now, of course, the DC is considered abandonware

There is no concept as "abandonware" - thats just a hipster term for internet assholes to steal things without feeling bad about biting hands that feed them.

Example: EA still holds all the IP and rights surrounding their earliest games. To this day, they refuse to distribute engines/code/whatever to stuff farther back than 1990.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by LeHah

Example: EA still holds all the IP and rights surrounding their earliest games. To this day, they refuse to distribute engines/code/whatever to stuff farther back than 1990.

o what a bunch of dicks

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Well, its kind of like the analogy about cars: Just because the owner isn't using it doesn't give you the right to break the window and drive off with it.

(It should be noted, though, that EA *did* release the original Wing Commander for free on a PC Gamer disc back in 1999 or something. But its only free on that ONE DISC.)

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That's a garbage analogy. If someone download's a DC game, a legitimate copy purchased by someone doesn't just blink out of existence. Your analogy is more like saying "just because the owner isn't using his DC games doesn't give you the right to walk into his apartment and take them." And you're right. It doesn't.

However, DCs are no longer being sold, nor are DC games. The company will never see any of the money that is being paid for their past products. There is no way to buy anything in such a way as to support the company. So, should people feel bad about not paying out ebay powerseller GamesOnline1004 instead of just downloading an ISO? I don't think so.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Axelrod :punch: Axelrod

However, DCs are no longer being sold, nor are DC games. The company will never see any of the money that is being paid for their past products.

However, a lot of the companies who've made DC games (as well as Sega themselves, albeit a shadow of their former self) still exist and still own legal rights over the material you're talking about.

Will they see loss of money? No, probably not. Will they see it as IP infringement? Absolutely.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Pretty sure they won't "see" it at all.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by LeHah

Will they see it as IP infringement? Absolutely.

And? =o

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by AcerBandit

And? =o

Well, if its for something like Brat Billy's Buttfuck Buttfucking Butt Bonanza, no one is going to care.

But if its for Halo - then you're talking about Mountain Dew tie-in ads and novelizations and action figures and everything else. Stepping on their toes by stealing their IP makes things difficult in the shorter/broader perspective, if not so much the long run.

And lets be serious, folks... and Pang: If you want to pirate software, pirate software -- it's your choice, there are certainly many less moral things you could do... but at least have some backbone and call a spade a spade instead of inventing an elaborate explanation about why you've been *forced* to steal an entertainment product. "Abandonware" has absolutely no special legal status. It's a term jerks made up so they could feel better about themselves for stealing.

In the end, pretending that stealing a game is some form of "respect" is assinine... pay the four bucks on ebay, you bunch of fucking kike bastards.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by LeHah

But if its for Halo - then you're talking about Mountain Dew tie-in ads and novelizations and action figures and everything else. Stepping on their toes by stealing their IP makes things difficult in the shorter/broader perspective, if not so much the long run.

Like what things? You think people who download games are less likely to buy Mountain Dew?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

LeHah, you stop ruining my fucking DC Nostalgia thread right now.

Go buy one and post a picture of it or I'm calling Skills on you.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I'm pretty sure Halo isn't on the Dreamcast, LeHah.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Aardark

Like what things? You think people who download games are less likely to buy Mountain Dew?

(Come on Aard. I know you're just playing dumb here.)

Its called infringement. There are many ways to do it. Mountain Dew and EA had an exchange of legal status things to have that promotion happen - its vaugely similar to walking into a Bestbuy and buying a copy of Halo.

Downloading it illegally isn't covered in that.

Also, because Tails is getting all black at me:








I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by LeHah

However, a lot of the companies who've made DC games (as well as Sega themselves, albeit a shadow of their former self) still exist and still own legal rights over the material you're talking about.

Will they see loss of money? No, probably not. Will they see it as IP infringement? Absolutely.

Honestly I doubt any companies truly care about it. Why? If you bought the game legally with cash money, would they see gain of money? No. Because all the secondhand shops and mom and pop game stores that would still sell DC games aren't getting them from the manufacturers of those games, they're getting them from old warehouses and places like eBay: places that don't give the IP holders any cut of the cash.

Sure, its still infringement, but it's not really worth doing anything about to them. If anything it's free advertisement for the case they ever make a sequel.

Now, games that they port, that might be a different story.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by LeHah

(Come on Aard. I know you're just playing dumb here.)

Its called infringement. There are many ways to do it. Mountain Dew and EA had an exchange of legal status things to have that promotion happen - its vaugely similar to walking into a Bestbuy and buying a copy of Halo.

Downloading it illegally isn't covered in that.

Well, first of all, you can still easily buy Halo, so no one would call it abandonware in the first place. And I agree that, strictly legally speaking, most things that people call abandonware actually aren't. But morally, if the only way of getting a game is buying it used from a private seller, I don't have a problem with downloading instead. And I still don't understand what Mountain Dew or other merchandise has to do with it. If anything, the more people play a game -- legally or otherwise -- the better the tie-in merchandise will sell (since you can't download Mountain Dew).

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Like, say, downloading Space Channel 5 when you could purchase it for PS2 and still give Sega money?

Or are you talking about awful ports that leave out functionality?

Edit: DAMMIT AARD.

FELIPE NO

So LeHah, I'm curious... a quick example: I imported Radiant Silvergun for the Sega Saturn back when it first came out for about $70. I sold it on eBay many years later for $165. Before doing so however, I copied the CD into an ISO and continue to play it now and then on my currrently-modded Sega Saturn.

Would what I've done be considered stealing? If so, who am I stealing from? I can't help but wonder, because I purchased and supported both the development studios, and the publishers by purchasing numerous games (at full price, plus importer retail markup), soundtrack CDs, and other miscellaneous products like my Shining Force 3 artbook. I'm certainly not stealing from the individuals buying my legitimate copies of games on eBay, because they're getting exactly what they paid for. And as far as losing future sales potential, that's a load of crap too, since I've repurchased Rez, Ikaruga, and numerous other games as they've been re-released. I'd buy a re-released Radiant Silvergun on Xbox Live in a heartbeat, as it's still my favorite 2D shooter of all time.

Just wondering where you draw the line.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Someone split the thread before Tails throws another fit? Thanks.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Done.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by LeHah

And lets be serious, folks... and Pang: If you want to pirate software, pirate software -- it's your choice, there are certainly many less moral things you could do... but at least have some backbone and call a spade a spade instead of inventing an elaborate explanation about why you've been *forced* to steal an entertainment product. "Abandonware" has absolutely no special legal status. It's a term jerks made up so they could feel better about themselves for stealing.

You're putting an awful lot of words in my mouth, there, Dr. Logorrhoea. I said nothing about my own pirating tendencies at all, I'm just saying what the view seems to be in what's left of the Dreamcast user community these days (all 6 of those guys).

Is anybody being "forced" to download DC ISOs instead of paying some ebay goon? No. But unless you're one of those creepy faggots with the pristine collection all boxes & manuals included there's no goddamn reason to buy a used game when you could just copy it. It is an activity that literally injures no one except the theoretical jackass trying to resell his copy of Skies of Arcadia for $90.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by LeHah

"Abandonware" has absolutely no special legal status. It's a term jerks made up so they could feel better about themselves for stealing.

Isn't Abandonware supposed to be software which at one point wasn't freeware, but since has been released by the developer as Freeware? I mean, yeah, there's lots of stuff that's called Abandonware that's still copyrighted and just called OLD GAMES YOU CAN DOWNLOAD FOR FREE WITH NOBODY CARING, but there are actual titles that, while at one point cost money, are now public domain.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Pangalin

It is an activity that literally injures no one except the theoretical jackass trying to resell his copy of Skies of Arcadia for $90.

Lets say that I have a copy of Skies Of Arcadia. I take that and rip it and stick it on the internet because I'm a douche. Say 5 or 15 or 50 people download it. Just make up a number, it doesn't matter.

Now theres a copy of the game that wasn't pressed or created by the company out there in the world. The people who pressed that game didn't get money for that copy (when the game was new), and in turn the company doesn't get credit for however many X copies we're talking about. Even I will admit that the numbers won't matter much unless we start talking about big numbers - but across how many games and how many platforms does this kind of shit take place?

Now instead of Skies Of Arcadia, lets say its the gayest fucking shit ever - Halo. Consoles like XBox Live and Wii (I don't know if PS3 does this?) now have backwards compatibility thing-os which allow you to download previous generation games to play them. I could download Halo for a couple of bucks if I had no self-respect. However, if I'm a douchebag college student who watches Family Guy and strokes his chin-grease over reruns of Battlestar Galactica - why should I buy it if I can get it for free from some internet torrent cockfuckery?

Another example - perhaps flawed - is something like Gametap. What a grand experiment gone HORRIBLY WRONG. It was an online service that allowed you to download ol games and run them on a WinXP machine without a problem.

They had Wing Commander. I have a fucking hard-on for that action.

Why was this important? I own Wing Commander I already -- in fact, I own me *lots* of Wing Commander. I have all the games on floppy and CD-ROM and DVD and books and novelizations and cartoons and jewlery and, Jesus Christ, I have emails from Chris Roberts himself.

So, I wasn't excited because I could play Wing Commander I again. I was excited because of what the release meant. For years and years and years we hardcore gamers with the slightest moral bent would tell people exactly what you're telling them here - buy the old game, buy the old game.

That's great - contrary to popular opinion, there are lots of copies of the original Wing Commander out there and they can be had for a few dollars each. I've even sent out extras to people who need them and can't get them some other way. But those small facts are a drop of rain in the super-bucket of software piracy... people invented the concept of "abandonware" in order to feel okay about stealing and it's been an uphill battle ever since.

GameTap solved that problem - no, look!, we could shout, Wing Commander is available again! You can legally buy it - it isn't abandoned at all! That was great.

There's the tech issue, too... not everyone (almost no one, actually) wants to configure a computer to run classic games correctly. I know we're the cream of the crop when it comes to intelligent internet characters and we can all figure out DOSBox or build our own classic gaming rigs - but the vast majority of people just want to quickly play their favorite game from years past.

While Gametap died because they ended up being run by a dumb bag of doorknobs - the idea that Gametap could reform into other services is kind of quashed by people who use "abandonware" claims as their armor.

I mean, for people who claim to love video games too many are not willing to support the people that make them and thats godawful. It would be like inviting your grandparents over so you could club them over the head with a fireplace poker and take their money.

It just sucks, y'know?

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

I mean, yeah, there's lots of stuff that's called Abandonware that's still copyrighted and just called OLD GAMES YOU CAN DOWNLOAD FOR FREE WITH NOBODY CARING, but there are actual titles that, while at one point cost money, are now public domain.

I think the difference between "Abandonware" and "Public Domain" is the same difference between the words bear and bare - they're vaugely similar but mean totally different things if you bother to use your brain.

I was speaking idiomatically.

I'm confused. I could swear that Gametap is still up and running. I mean, what with the commercials still running on TV and all.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by LeHah

Its called infringement. There are many ways to do it. Mountain Dew and EA had an exchange of legal status things to have that promotion happen - its vaugely similar to walking into a Bestbuy and buying a copy of Halo.

Stop dwelling in the realm of ideals and get practical. Nobody is losing anything concrete in this equation.

Let's say I download an ISO of FIFA 99. EA is no longer producing material copies of this game; they are no longer estimating and calculating revenues from purchases of this game. EA is no longer paying royalties to Sega for sales of FIFA 99. All transactions involving this game are on the secondhand market and use a system of exchange so arbitrary that there's no way Sega or EA could even begin to calculate perceived losses. It is, for all intents and purposes, a game obsoleted by subsequent versions and technology itself. There's no real stake in the FIFA 99 market.

As for Mountain Dew, Red Bull, and any other tie-in product, they should shut up and be glad people are still being exposed to the ads in these games, downloaded or otherwise. They know there's no such thing as bad publicity so it's extremely doubtful that Mountain Dew is going to up and launch a proprietary suit against leechers and ISPs who facilitate piracy.

Likewise, it's not in Sega's better interests to formally go after pirates. That would alienate the existing fanbase who would happily support any future console endeavors on Sega's part. The people who download Dreamcast ISOs do so because there's really no other practical and/or affordable way to play those games. Sega receives no compensation from secondhand sales; you're not supporting the company by purchasing off Ebay or at a flea market, so why pay through the nose for something so discardable as an ideal? Does paying $120 for a hard copy of Marvel Vs. Capcom 2 make you a better man? No, it makes you a silly man.

Here's a good analogy for Abandonware: It's like the public library. It sometimes takes a while for popular titles to become available, but they eventually do. In the meantime, there's plenty of older and forgotten titles for everyone to enjoy. The purchase fees and royalties have already been handled, nobody is going without.

Why are you so worried about the legal holdings of companies in which you have no stake, anyhow? Do you not watch TV and/or movie clips on YouTube because the studios, actors and distributors aren't getting their cut, also?

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Crash Landon

Let's say I download an ISO of FIFA 99. EA is no longer producing material copies of this game; they are no longer estimating and calculating revenues from purchases of this game. EA is no longer paying royalties to Sega for sales of FIFA 99. All transactions involving this game are on the secondhand market and use a system of exchange so arbitrary that there's no way Sega or EA could even begin to calculate perceived losses. It is, for all intents and purposes, a game obsoleted by subsequent versions and technology itself. There's no real stake in the FIFA 99 market.

As far as games with ''yearly updates'' go, I can kind of see downloaders hurting sales (in theory). The FIFA '99 market as such is dead, but not the FIFA franchise. If there was no way to download the game, at least some of those people would have to go out and buy FIFA 2009 instead.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by wvlfpvp

I'm confused. I could swear that Gametap is still up and running. I mean, what with the commercials still running on TV and all.

http://www.gametap.com/

yup[/lazarus]

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