Atheist parents!

I firmly believe that LordsSword is actually the antichrist in disguise.

A very clever disguise at that.

Most amazing jew boots

Perhaps you are a good father, LordSword, nobody here is able to judge that, since we don't know you. It's the arrogance of saying that atheists are necessarily bad parents, which makes you unpopular here.

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by Traveller87

Perhaps you are a good father, LordSword, nobody here is able to judge that, since we don't know you. It's the arrogance of saying that atheists are necessarily bad parents, which makes you unpopular here.

Apparently, he had a really shitty upbringing with an asshole father who happened to be atheist.

I wonder if he recognizes that his behavior is just him trying to get over his shitty parents.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by LordsSword

Ok, I suppose this works for kids. Simple, easy to remember.
Lets look at the reality though.

My critics are not making any attempt to make me happy are they? They are in fact with premeditation trying to make me unhappy.
Your statement is a mere platitude that is trampled on by you & evey new post aimed at me.

Recognise this? Some call it the golden rule:
Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

The atheist is challenged by their abandoning of what has worked for civilization since the beginning of time: the impression that moral guidelines come from beyond the opinions of men.

Have you stopped to consider that it may not be working for everyone? That not everyone is happy going about with what they feel a delusion guiding their lives, everything they do?

I'm happy you've found Christ. I'm happy you were able to overcome what sounds to be a tough time of your life through his teachings, and the set of beliefs set around him. Honestly. I may not agree with what you believe, but that's entirely irrelevant. I respect what you believe, and am happy to see that you've found what makes you happy, content, whatever it is you may be looking for.

All I ask is that you show me the same respect.

How ya doing, buddy?

But you're not worth respecting, Capo. You're a terrible person, a heathen, an atheist.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

There are two things in the world that I can't stand. There are the people who mess up the there/their/they're words, And then there's the religious nutbars. Lordsword, I'm talking to you.

I really don't care if you subscribe to some book for your life. That's your choice. Just don't tell me that my choice is wrong, because we are all people, too. I hang out with religious people and we have quite the community. I see all this stuff, and being an atheist I shrug and go celebrate Christmas and Easter and I hang at church with my friends. Why? Because I respect the life choices that they have made, just like I support gay and lesbian types. You might say I'm less atheist than apathetic.

I could go around and tear down every sign of Jesus and God that I see. I could run into a church and yell, "You idiots are wasting your lives!" But I don't. I have respect for the people who are out there, and I understand my friends are happier with God in their lives.

What I have seen in this thread is a person who is the true reversal of what I know a Christian as: someone who doesn't love everybody. Why can't you accept the fact that other people find the world more acceptable without a big happy man in the sky?

You ask why we don't treat you the way we want to be treated. Well, now I ask you the same thing, and accept the fact perhaps your lens is a little tinted at the moment, and that there is nothing psychologically wrong with atheist people. I think perhaps in your case, it's the other way around.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Unless I am missing something, I am pretty sure Divest was being sarcastic...

I think quality people are quality people, regardless of spiritual beliefs.

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by RainMan

Unless I am missing something, I am pretty sure Divest was being sarcastic...

I think quality people are quality people, regardless of spiritual beliefs.

1) Read the entire post much? That's kind of the point of my entire post.

2) Read the section where I referenced the fact that I was talking to Lordsword?

3) He's banned. 'Bout time.

I was speaking idiomatically.

1) If your entire post was clear to begin with, why did you feel the need to go back and edit the information in after I had replied? It wasn't clear but now it is. I am not getting on your case, I am just double-checking as I wasn't quite so sure.

2) Yes but you shouldn't have referenced Divests post as the focal point if you were purely referring to LordSword without mentioning you agreed with Divests post. It was confusing. I am just saying.

I agree with pretty much everything you said.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Sceptre X

He's banned. 'Bout time.

Nah, unfortunately he's not. That's just the title Zeal gave him during his short stint as a mock-admin.

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by RainMan

1) If your entire post was clear to begin with, why did you feel the need to go back and edit the information in after I had replied? It wasn't clear but now it is. I am not getting on your case, I am just double-checking as I wasn't quite so sure.

2) Yes but you shouldn't have referenced Divests post as the focal point if you were purely referring to LordSword without mentioning you agreed with Divests post. It was confusing. I am just saying.

I agree with pretty much everything you said.

I changed it because, while I was irritated, I realized that if it happened once, it will happen again. I'll probably just take his quote out entirely.

Not banned? That's a shame. Still, this conversation's probably the most interesting this happening on this board, so I might as well stick around.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Dear pissweak individuals of this thread,

There is no middle road.

Either you're with Jesus (insert a fictional character of your choice here) or you are against him.

Saying "oh I won't say anything so I'm not doing anything bad" or "I'm just going to let them the figure it out for themselves" or "I'm going to teach my children about the Crusades and Jihads" IS NOT THE MIDDLE ROAD.

You get NO CLEAN conscience with this. You are actively choosing to teach them one side of the coin and there ain't no three sides to this coin.

I am saying this because some of the pissweak characters in this thread are refusing to consider the weight of their words and the weight of their impact upon another human being: acknowledge what you are doing to your children.

You are not above this religion discussion, you can't be a bystander, you can't be outside of this:
Like the fella from Nazi Germany said "oh they came for the Italians and I wasn't Italian so why should I care?"

No, that's not how it works. You are not on the outside of this discussion and you get no clean conscience "oh, I just wanted the middle road."

Religion defines the rules of this game and the rules are pretty specific: either you're with them, or you're against them.

If you're too scared or weak to justify your position then you are a pissweak individual and you have no place to be raising children.

It pisses me off that you want to raise your children with absolutely no leadership in such a critical issue.

I am an atheist and I will be quite clear cut with my children: you are on one side, they are on the other, and no matter how much you think you're right, you are not on the edge of the coin: you are flat on heads or tails and that's all you can be.
I will teach them wherein and wherefore my beliefs stem from but I will not skirt the issue: belief and larger purpose is a natural leaning of every person and they will naturally want to gravitate toward a neat fairy tale purpose like Jesus.

I'm not saying that "teach them to critically think" is a wrong ideal nor is it an Atheist ideal: I want you to acknowledge you're picking your lot on heads or tails. Your cute clever reasoning does not put you above this basic problem: you're with them or you're against them.

Make up your mind.

How ya doing, buddy?

I don't think educating your children about world religions means that you haven't made up your mind. It should be part of a comprehensive education to learn about Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Shintoism, etc. ...it's what we learned in school. And although it will be difficult for me because to be honest, all that condescending religious talk makes me sick, I won't teach them that there is some sort of war going on, an "us against them". Why not? Because I want my children to have friends, it's as simple as that. I won't lie to them and pretend everyone gets along, but I'm not going to tell them to be against any of these, either, because I want them to be tolerant and aware towards other people's beliefs. I want them to respect them as human beings - and I hope that they will be respected as well, although they may face some rejection.

Of course I'll explain my own beliefs and my reasons for them first, and make my point of view clear. When they are little, children don't understand the validity of different beliefs, either, so to make it understandable to them, my beliefs will be all they learn, and they will learn about them as "right". That's just what parents do. But if they choose to disagree with that as they grow older (and by the time they hit their teens, they are likely to), that's their choice. They can go to church all they want, as long as they don't drag me there with them. Of course I would be a bit disappointed, but that's life.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by neus

Dear pissweak individuals of this thread,

There is no middle road.

You sound like you'd be a kickass teacher or boss, but as a parent, life must be hell.

There is no middle road? What? Religion is not a political preference or even choosing between the black and white evil definitions that much of America might believe in. Religion is a perspective on the world and how they interact with it. Some people want a view on life where they need a supernatural explaination for the things out of their control, or the things they don't understand. Sure, that's fine.

I'm an athiest. I believe that Jesus existed, and I think that he had good stuff to teach. I'm actually pretty pumped that there are millions of people that try to be like Jesus, because he was a good man who had good things to say; his lessons are worth hearing and living by. But do I think he is the son of God? No. That doesn't mean that I have to swear off everything in the Bible.

There is a middle road here. It's the athiests like this that swear off religion completely that annoy the crap out of me as well, because they've become no better than the religion that they left earlier. I have come to terms with the fact that I live in a Christian country, and that I am a minority. I attend church with my family and I celebrate Christmas, because it makes them happy and mkaes the community stronger.

I can see you as people who rip down Christmas trees because, oh fuck, there's religion in my secular life. Oh, no. Get over yourself and realize that other people exist as well, and each has their own perspective.

I pity your kids.

How ya doing, buddy?

LOL @ another LordsSword blowout. I swear when I stop back every few months to this forum the same shit is brewing each time. Anyway, to reply to the thread:

Originally Posted by Sceptre X

There is a middle road here. It's the athiests like this that swear off religion completely that annoy the crap out of me as well, because they've become no better than the religion that they left earlier. I have come to terms with the fact that I live in a Christian country, and that I am a minority. I attend church with my family and I celebrate Christmas, because it makes them happy and mkaes the community stronger.

I can see you as people who rip down Christmas trees because, oh fuck, there's religion in my secular life. Oh, no. Get over yourself and realize that other people exist as well, and each has their own perspective.

I can see where both you and neus are coming from, but I agree more with neus (though not harboring so much rage). I won't rip down a Christmas tree because it's religious. In fact, I'll probably use a Christmas tree during the holidays in the future because it's fun to decorate and brings in the holiday mood.

However, when it comes to meaningful things like ideas (because, really, how fucking meaningful is a Christmas tree), I stand on neus' side. I believe children should be taught to consider things rationally, rationally meaning weighing evidence against counter evidence and discriminating which is truth and which isn't. However, most people like to make little exceptions to rationality, such as, oh, blaming god for killing your child who was sick with cancer, or believing in a crucified jewish zombie sacrificial-lamb/man-savior that god splooged out one day.

Apologetics say I can't disprove that this is the way the world really functions, so they're off the hook; they get to believe what they want. Wrong. The evidence against the two above examples is blatantly obvious: there is no correlation between religion and whether or not your child gets cancer, and it is medically impossible to resuscitate a body after 3 days of death. "God did it" may be the answer to whatever argument I make, but it comes back to proof. I have proof that it medically can't happen, you have no proof that it medically can happen. Rationality is the opposite of believing things that can't be proven(see: racism, sexism); it is rejecting them and instead believing that which can be proven. We don't debate the possibilities of whether invisible-monkey-bird-demons are about to eat our face off, and for good reason. We can't prove their existence, and thus the idea of them never materializes into something we should be concerned about. Why the idea of God never received the same criticism is something to wonder about.

In my debates with others I've come to the conclusion that the real reason that anyone comes to believe in the supernatural is because, well, the alternative is too unimaginative. The ideas of atheism are sobering: no life after death, no god looking out for you (or trying to destroy you), the life you are living is not just a test for the future, it's the whole sha-bang. And considering how shitty many people's lives have been, atheism isn't going to be the crowd pleaser, the lift me up pill that so many other religions are. However, the place where atheism shines is in it's rationality, which is something no dogma-based system can attain.

The fault of atheism is the way it's message is presented (see: neus). Atheism can be presented in a hopeful, forward-looking context, but too often it spends time using it's energies arguing against religion instead of for itself (reminds me of a political campaign).

So to conclude, I do swear off religion completely. I don't swear off socializing, humanitarian efforts, basic traditions, or community strength (the things which religion leeches off of to sustain itself). Those are all positive things and need to be freed from their religious context. If I have kids, they will not be raised in a religion, and they will be taught to think critically and rationally. If I were you, Cellius, I wouldn't worry too much. I don't think harassment of atheists is a big issue for school kids (unless s/he wears shirts that say "Blasphemy is a victimless crime" to school). It seems to me that at this point in schools the majority of kids really don't give a crap about religion one way or the other. When they talk to each other it's about friends, food, movies, music, games, not religion. Unless your kid intentionally hangs out with the School Bible Club I doubt he'll have much to worry about.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Your argument is well constructed, but you may want to consider that people aren't 100% rational all the time. I think it's great that you want to teach your children to look at evidence, and encourage critical thinking, but you may still be disappointed. The toughest atheist can still have a moment of intense rage at something, think "fuck God" or "why me?" when their child dies of cancer. We can't understand everything rationally, there are many things we don't understand at all, and different people develop different coping mechanisms, different theories about their world of experience. Atheists are human beings, just like everyone else. Not everything can be proven, and sometimes, we need irrational hope to keep us going, whether this hope comes in the form of religion or something else. And sometimes, we feel irrational anger. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing.

I would want my children to understand that they can't always expect everyone to act rationally, especially when emotions run high, and that they don't always have to be the perfect model of rationality, either. I would want them to be able to deal with that, and not just view the world as the sum of empirical events and formulas.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Quote:

I would want my children to understand that they can't always expect everyone to act rationally, especially when emotions run high, and that they don't always have to be the perfect model of rationality, either. I would want them to be able to deal with that, and not just view the world as the sum of empirical events and formulas.

The sum of empirical events and forumulas and irrationality aren't mutually exclusive. The Universe is a rather dumb (I use dumb in the same sense as one calls a computer dumb) place - it doesn't think and pick the most logical design or course of action, and if it was designed by some intelligence they did a rather piss-poor job.

I fail to see how 'the world is illogical' leads to 'teaching kids logic is retarded', much less to the implied 'teach them religion instead'.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

First off, the raising kids debate I find is a little...pointless. If you've raised a child to be a smart person who, when asked, can identify their religion and why they believe it, then you've done well. If the child fits in with Christian mindsets, good for him. If not, good for him too.

As for what I personally think of religion for a religious perspective (as FallDragon and Traveller pointed out in very reasonable posts) I find religion to be a way for many people to fill in the gaps. There's a lot of stuff that doesn't make sense, and for some people, it really is essential to their state of mind to think that karma is the hand of a big smiling man in the sky pushing the good forward.

FallDragon, I don't swear off religion, but most of it I do. It's enough for me to say, "No God," and never even waste my brain cells thinking about it. I'm not opposed to it, it's just there. But what it represents is the more important focus, because personally for me, I've seen some of the greatest acts of kindness done through religion. If that person handed me my fallen wallet because he thought it would get him into Heaven, it's not me to think if that's right or not.

Is the world better off? Maybe. Do I care? Not really. Only when I see people slamming either side do I actually step in (A.K.A. this thread). Otherwise, it's just a part of life.

P.S. Arainach: Big words scare me.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Arainach

The Universe is a rather dumb (I use dumb in the same sense as one calls a computer dumb) place - it doesn't think and pick the most logical design or course of action, and if it was designed by some intelligence they did a rather piss-poor job.

Let's think about this for a moment, because that's a rather grand statement.

Do you understand the true nature of the entire universe? I'd be shocked if you do. I'd be shocked if anyone does. Stephen Hawking has made some progress yet still wrestles with theory, and you are not Stephen Hawking.

Consider, perhaps the universe is logical and that everything makes very good sense, happening for well-defined reason. These processes, whether by ultimate chance or higher design - the point is moot - would be part of a system that has been in action for countless epochs. How old are you? Do you see people on the street and label them "dumb" because you don't know where they're going and why? Is their purpose illogical merely because you're not privy to their goal? It can take the better part of a human lifetime to master chess, a game with only 32 functional pieces and a small handful of laws. The universe: infinitely moreso. Grasping or dismissing the fundamental order of the entire cosmos isn't a gesture that anyone can authoritatively make after only twenty-some-odd years of living.

Your failure to understand the universe does not constitute objective inefficiency, randomness or poor design on the universe's part or the part of any potential creator.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Sceptre X

But what it represents is the more important focus, because personally for me, I've seen some of the greatest acts of kindness done through religion.

I agree religion has done some of the greatest acts of kindness. This is due to people feeling a need to just be kind, and because sections of text from their scripture tells them that performing kindness is a good thing. If this was all their religious text told them to do I wouldn't have a problem with it. The problems arise when they start to believe in ideas which have no foundation in reality, or at worst, contradict reality. And unfortunately, almost all religions have these kinds of ideas.

Originally Posted by Crash Landon

Your failure to understand the universe does not constitute objective inefficiency, randomness or poor design on the universe's part or the part of any potential creator.

Arainach's argument is different than the argument you're addressing. You're saying "Don't say something is inefficient when you don't understand it." This is a statement I think both me and Arainach would agree with. However, I think Arainach is saying "Say something is inefficient when we understand how it could be more efficient." There are a lot of parts of the Universe we don't understand, but there are some that we do, and out of these parts that we understand there are objective inefficiencies (evolution being the most obvious example of showing how the universe makes objective inefficiencies).

Most amazing jew boots