islam, the religion of love...

Originally Posted by niki

reading Da Vinci Code =/= studying a faith ~

A) I couldn't make it through twenty pages of Dan Brown without dry heaving.

B) I did read Holy Blood Holy Grail, and it was obviously bullshit.

C) What I'm stating isn't some modern fiction, it's the gnostics. It's a fact accepted by many scholars, and it's even thought she may be the author of the fourth gospel. Pagels and Brown ran with it, and it's certainly a valid opinion supported by facts and textual clues if you understand the culture at the time of Jesus. Is it true? Who knows. But it's as plausible as anything else in there.

You're right, reading the Da Vinci code doesn't equal studying a faith. But you know what does? Years of studying a faith.

Coming back from a break after a lot of people felt you were being a git? Free.

Posting in a random thread on religion with an attempted pissy remark? Free.

Getting slapped in the face because you don't know what you're talking about? Priceless.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Pangalin

Suicide bombings occur largely because they are the most effective tool that disenfranchised, desperate people have to work with. You can try to pretend that somehow these people are different than other human beings just because they're in the Middle-East (how dare you compare them to other people!!!), but it's delusional.

Suicide bombing is a "tool" that they work with? You don't seem to understand what happens when one suicide-bombs them self. They cease to exist. They die. They pull a trigger to knowingly blow themselves into tiny bloody bits. This is a dramatically different situation then a bank robber. Bank robbers have plans for escaping, etc, etc. If a bank robber knew going into a robbery that he would get caught and killed he would not do it. Do you not see this incredibly dramatic difference??

Originally Posted by Denicalis

If there was a standard of living, and a situation where the benefits of death (possible afterlife reward) didn't outweigh the benefits of life (poor, no food, no women, no hockey) you wouldn't see it happening.

The problem is that when you're dealing with Religion, nothing on Earth is better than the benefits of a righteous death.

Now to tackle this "desperate" issue. Yes, people living in the Mideast are desperate for hope. Islam is providing that hope. Unfortunately, as with most Religions, the vast majority of that hope reveals itself only after they die. In the words of John Lennon:

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Fundamental Muslims, no matter how desperate, aren't contemplating "how can I make today better," they're contemplating "how can I make my Heaven better." This is all due to their Religious faith (note to Pang: don't generalizing this argument to include all Muslims, as you're prone to do in order to "prove me wrong"). If you don't think Fundamental Muslims really think this way, then you don't really know what it's like to be a True Believer (and should therefore read The True Believer by Eric Hoffer).

Or, you could just explain to me how desperate the 9/11 hijackers were to escape their well-educated, middle-class American way of life?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Oh, so this is one of those things where you read an Enlightening Work Of Literature and now you Know How It Really Is. Why didn't you say so in the first place and save us all the trouble of assuming you could be reasoned with?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by niki

It can also be taken the other way around to explain the current Islamic expansion in Africa to the detriment of Christianity and the pretty much huge lack of wealthy Islamic countries compared to the Christian ones, though.

I think this has more to do with anti-imperialist knee-jerk Western opposition than desperation.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Pangalin

Oh, so this is one of those things where you read an Enlightening Work Of Literature and now you Know How It Really Is. Why didn't you say so in the first place and save us all the trouble of assuming you could be reasoned with?

Actually, it was one of those things where I used to be a very Fundamental Christian and gradually came to understand the manipulative mind games that Religion was playing on me concerning desperation, virtue, and alienation. But I figured you might not want to go through that, so a book seemed appropriate.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Denicalis

A) I couldn't make it through twenty pages of Dan Brown without dry heaving.

B) I did read Holy Blood Holy Grail, and it was obviously bullshit.

C) What I'm stating isn't some modern fiction, it's the gnostics. It's a fact accepted by many scholars, and it's even thought she may be the author of the fourth gospel. Pagels and Brown ran with it, and it's certainly a valid opinion supported by facts and textual clues if you understand the culture at the time of Jesus. Is it true? Who knows. But it's as plausible as anything else in there.

You're right, reading the Da Vinci code doesn't equal studying a faith. But you know what does? Years of studying a faith.

Heh, I dunno. Maybe if you stopped sounding like a 17 years old spitting all the common anti religious cliches as facts people would stop assuming you're full of shit ?

lol @ all the personal stuff.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

I think this has more to do with anti-imperialist knee-jerk Western opposition than desperation.

Probably a mix of both in some places? I have no idea, sincerely. Was just throwing the idea around.

The idea that Christianity = western world isn't obvious in many places of Africa that were Christened way before Europe was, too.

Also, American Evangelists have a lot of success in large parts of Africa as well. They're pretty scary in a different way, though.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Anti-Religion? So, I'm being anti-religion by using religious history and religious scholars as a basis for an argument stating one religion isn't inherently worse than another?

Or maybe you mean I'm anti-religion because I'm not saying Islam is inherently worse than Christianity? Or maybe what you mean is you got caught with your pants down because you don't know any actual religious history beyond the DaVinci Code and your snide remark bit you in the ass.

Or maybe what you mean is that stating that Christianity isn't a doctrine of love and acceptance is anti-religion? Or maybe what you mean is that you don't actually comprehend any of the discussion at hand, but you want people to think you do. Because you're not doing a very good job of that, either. You clearly haven't done anything but briskly scan the discussion at hand and make a few backhanded comments like a bitch.

Or maybe it was anti-religion because I said prophets aren't the basis of a faith, but merely the conveyance of a message? But you're right. I've been going up and down this thread talking about how we should throw all catholics in prison, all muslims are terrorists and we should murder the jews to free us of the Zionist agenda. Get fucked, cunt. Sorry your big return was ruined by the fact you apparently can't read.

Also, trying not to laugh out loud at your comment about asserting the gnostics are 17 year old anti-religious bullshit. As if any biblical text is a more valid historical document than another.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Denicalis

Anti-Religion? So, I'm being anti-religion by using religious history and religious scholars as a basis for an argument stating one religion isn't inherently worse than another?

Or maybe you mean I'm anti-religion because I'm not saying Islam is inherently worse than Christianity? Or maybe what you mean is you got caught with your pants down because you don't know any actual religious history beyond the DaVinci Code and your snide remark bit you in the ass.

Or maybe what you mean is that stating that Christianity isn't a doctrine of love and acceptance is anti-religion? Or maybe what you mean is that you don't actually comprehend any of the discussion at hand, but you want people to think you do. Because you're not doing a very good job of that, either. You clearly haven't done anything but briskly scan the discussion at hand and make a few backhanded comments like a bitch.

Or maybe it was anti-religion because I said prophets aren't the basis of a faith, but merely the conveyance of a message? But you're right. I've been going up and down this thread talking about how we should throw all catholics in prison, all muslims are terrorists and we should murder the jews to free us of the Zionist agenda. Get fucked, cunt. Sorry your big return was ruined by the fact you apparently can't read.

Also, trying not to laugh out loud at your comment about asserting the gnostics are 17 year old anti-religious bullshit. As if any biblical text is a more valid historical document than another.

Or maybe I just mean what I already stated. I don't care how many years of study you've taken. If you're going to sound like an oversimplifying retard, I'm going to call you one.

You know, it's just like your pope = Hitler's buddy tirade. You tell me how many years of study it takes to be that dumbfully wrong.

Keep it up with the trying to turn this into a personal issue, though. That's all you're really good for. :3

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by FallDragon

Suicide bombing is a "tool" that they work with?

It absolutely is, for the people telling desperate teenagers to blow themselves up. The message holds because the places where suicide bombings occur are much shittier than your house.

Or did you think kamikaze pilots just emerged from the masses, planes and all, and decided that moon-heaven would be better than losing to the roundeye?

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by a lurker

It absolutely is, for the people telling desperate teenagers to blow themselves up. The message holds because the places where suicide bombings occur are much shittier than your house.

Or did you think kamikaze pilots just emerged from the masses, planes and all, and decided that moon-heaven would be better than losing to the roundeye?

Actually, they did. The first kamikaze unit ever was even composed of elite students. When appliances became open to anyone who'd volunteer, people from all backgrounds joined and they even had to refuse people. Japan always had a pretty unique tradition towards things like suicide and abnegation.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Well, of course they do. The Japanese basically magnify the worst of the Asian mindset to proportions that seem unimaginable to even other Asians.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by niki

Actually, they did. The first kamikaze unit ever was even composed of elite students. When appliances became open to anyone who'd volunteer, people from all backgrounds joined and they even had to refuse people. Japan always had a pretty unique tradition towards things like suicide and abnegation.

You're not disagreeing with me re: suicide attacks coming out of a truly shitty situation. That Japan has a massive fetish for martyrdom doesn't mean they weren't in Circumstances at the time, as you rarely see Japanese businessmen blowing themselves up in the lobbies of their employers' competition.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by a lurker

You're not disagreeing with me re: suicide attacks coming out of a truly shitty situation. That Japan has a massive fetish for martyrdom doesn't mean they weren't in Circumstances at the time, as you rarely see Japanese businessmen blowing themselves up in the lobbies of their employers' competition.

Oh yeah, desperation sure is a common factor to a certain extent. However, I still think Islamic suicide bombing and Japanese kamikaze concepts aren't that comparable, as one takes advantage of an already established state of strong despair to influence confused individuals by using the ugliest face of a religion, while the other is the symptom of a perfectly culturally accepted concept pushed to the extreme.

Of course, we could be both wrong, since there have been very well educated Islamic suicide bombers examples, especially for 9/11. =/

Finally, one is an act of terrorism, while the other is an act of war. Terrorism is often perceived as a justified act of war from the perpetrators point of view, though. ~_~

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by a lurker

It absolutely is, for the people telling desperate teenagers to blow themselves up. The message holds because the places where suicide bombings occur are much shittier than your house.

Desperation doesn't lead people to commit suicide while simultaneously murdering innocent civilians and soldiers. What leads them to commit these acts is their perspective on the world. Their Religion can easily convince them that:

1) It's not suicide, it martyrdom to get into Heaven

2) It's not murdering innocent civilians and soldiers, it's killing infidels that work against the purpose of Allah.

Hate always begins when one views their fellow human being as less then equal. Suicide bombers aren't desperate enough to kill innocent people, but they are desperate enough to kill infidels. If they suddenly had no Religion, they would have to somehow convince themselves that it's OK to murder perfectly innocent people while killing themselves without a purpose, and that is an incredibly tough pill to swallow.

As for Japanese suicide bombers, the same thing goes. Honor-infused dogma easily convinced them that it's not suicide, it's an honorable death in tribute to your country and Emperor.

Faith-based ideas embellish obvious immoral acts to disguise their true nature.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by niki

Or maybe I just mean what I already stated. I don't care how many years of study you've taken. If you're going to sound like an oversimplifying retard, I'm going to call you one.

You know, it's just like your pope = Hitler's buddy tirade. You tell me how many years of study it takes to be that dumbfully wrong.

Keep it up with the trying to turn this into a personal issue, though. That's all you're really good for. :3

The only thing I've ever said about the Pope in any seriousness is that he looks like Sidious and was in the Hitler Youth. After which I quickly pointed out you sort of had to be if you grew up in Germany in that era.

And I'm the one who's making things personal. I'm sure you didn't come in singling me out for an obvious disproving of a bullshit theory largely because I've made you look like a clown and hurt your precious e-rep in the past.

But you keep talking shit, niki. You're not even good for that.

And you want to talk about being an oversimplifying retard, how about storming into the room and flailing like a faggot about idiotic fiction just because you feel slighted you can't ban me when I show you up anymore. Because I was having a serious academic discussion with someone who said Jesus was the nicest guy ever and Mohammed was a pedo fuck and can we all just agree christianity is great. I should have quoted from the Gnostics directly instead of giving a rough outline of why he was wrong. Grow up.

Get fucked, dipshit. You're still useless. No one bought your pissy little backhanded faux-pacifism bullshit three years ago, and it's even more laughable now that you've been outed as a reactionary asshole. Lose the Minion impression, it isn't cute.

Most amazing jew boots

People keep talking about suicide bombers like the only incentive is heaven. Perhaps I'm wrong in this, but I could have sworn there was a big to do because martyr's families were getting support/money/status from the deaths of their children?

Isn't the middle east still very heavily tribal in nature? If it is, I'd say that advancing the status and wealth of your family becomes paramount even over self. You could have purely economic incentives for blowing yourself up too. It doesn't have to be delusional kids who think they're going to get to fuck women for all eternity. Nor does it have to be some lower brain function driving men who aren't getting pussy to blow themselves up so they can somehow satisfy their procreative urges in the afterlife.

If you're one of six kids, and not the eldest, then perhaps the best thing for you to do is to go kerblooie.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by a lurker

That Japan has a massive fetish for martyrdom

Actually they don't. Kamikaze doctrine was basically an intentional perversion of Bushido stating that it was honorable to kill yourself in the name of the Emperor, when Bushido advocated just about everything but killing yourself to kill an enemy. (what good is a dead samurai when you paid all that money to train and equip him?)

Japan has more of a problem with collectivism and conformity, which manifested itself as unquestioning loyalty to the state. The US bombing campaign wasn't even in full swing by the time Kamikaze doctrine was implemented. While desperation is a factor, it was only a factor in that the Japanese feared for the long-term perpetuation of the state and its Emperor.

With Muslim suicide bombers you have people living in extreme poverty with no prospect for their individual future being promised reward in the afterlife and oh hey also we'll give your family a monthly income donated by like-minded muslims.

FELIPE NO

I don't even care how many technicalities there are between 'war' and 'terrorism' or much of a stiffy the Japanese had or may have in the future for killing themselves, all I was saying was that suicide attackers can be used as tools and directed by people who are not currently blowing themselves up, and that furthermore FallDragon should stop beating his childlike fists against organized religion because, when he was ten years old, he honestly and truly believed he would suffer eternal torment if he stole a cookie from the cookie jar.

In conclusion, get off my balls,
A. Lurker, Esq.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

nigga why you gotta come at me with facts and shit?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Denicalis

The only thing I've ever said about the Pope in any seriousness is that he looks like Sidious and was in the Hitler Youth. After which I quickly pointed out you sort of had to be if you grew up in Germany in that era.

Originally Posted by Denicalis

Your God is the basis for the Catholic religion, which was fine with Nazi Germany and the slave trade.

Quote:

Get fucked, dipshit. You're still useless. No one bought your pissy little backhanded faux-pacifism bullshit three years ago, and it's even more laughable now that you've been outed as a reactionary asshole. Lose the Minion impression, it isn't cute.

Heh, so full of hate. Surely your life must be as fulfilling as you make it sound for you to always react so pathologically.

See ? That was personal.

I'm afraid I'm not pop00lar enough anymore to get a "let's be friends" pm this time, though.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

Actually they don't. Kamikaze doctrine was basically an intentional perversion of Bushido stating that it was honorable to kill yourself in the name of the Emperor, when Bushido advocated just about everything but killing yourself to kill an enemy. (what good is a dead samurai when you paid all that money to train and equip him?)

Japan has more of a problem with collectivism and conformity, which manifested itself as unquestioning loyalty to the state. The US bombing campaign wasn't even in full swing by the time Kamikaze doctrine was implemented. While desperation is a factor, it was only a factor in that the Japanese feared for the long-term perpetuation of the state and its Emperor.

With Muslim suicide bombers you have people living in extreme poverty with no prospect for their individual future being promised reward in the afterlife and oh hey also we'll give your family a monthly income donated by like-minded muslims.

Actually, the Japanese did take a liking towards martyrdom in the Showa period, unrelated to the bushido (a point that I agree on with you, just to avoid an unnecessary argument). It's true the doctrine used bushido as a validation, but the real ideology and reasoning behind it went back to the early 30s, and was less based on collectivism than it was on individual glorification. Being brave on the battlefield, and supporting the troops in Japan were still seen as the best way to show your loyalty to the country, these sacrifices are more linked to individualistic competition.

This is excellently shown in the fictionalized story of Kogo Dentaro, a Japanese commander during the Manchurian incident, who got an entire platoon killed when he tried to save the flag (although in reality he tried to save his own ass after making a fatal and rash decision). You see a bunch of soldiers trying to save the flag and failing one after another, focusing on their INDIVIDUAL suicidal attempts to complete their commander's mission, not driven by a sense of duty towards the empire, but a chance at becoming a hero. sacrifice through death became the only way to achieve this status, the loyalty to Japan wasn't as important.

Also, could you be even more of an ass Deni?

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by niki

I'm afraid I'm not pop00lar enough anymore to get a "let's be friends" pm this time, though.

Except what I said there wasn't tying the current pope to nazis, but rather commenting on their silence during World War II and their declining to comment on the slave trade.

Good hustle though.

And see, the reason you didn't get a PM trying to work out this little spat is because a few years ago, you were a rational person I just disagreed with. But you've declined horridly since then, and aren't worth it anymore. I don't know when you decided to just go with what you know instead of bringing something to the table, but it's pathetic. Why do you think you want from being popular to no one really caring that you left? Because you fell the fuck off, that's why. There was a time when you could bring something interesting to this discussion, but we haven't seen that in years. And it's too bad, because there was a time you didn't suck.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Radez29

If you're one of six kids, and not the eldest, then perhaps the best thing for you to do is to go kerblooie.

Well, the best thing for you to do is to have one of the other younger brothers go kerblooie. I'll incorporate your idea into one of my previous comments though, because you make a legitimate point.

Suicide bombers aren't desperate enough to kill innocent people*, but they are desperate enough to kill infidels and themselves*.

* for money, protection, and/or purpose

The transition from "innocent" to "infidel" can only be provided through faith-based dogmas, though.

Originally Posted by a lurker

FallDragon should stop beating his childlike fists against organized religion because, when he was ten years old, he honestly and truly believed he would suffer eternal torment if he stole a cookie from the cookie jar.

Are you and Pang related in some way? When you both fail at debating logic you resort to a final post of personal insults. You better double check on who's having the tantrum here, poopyhead.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Using your logic, no war could ever have been perpetrated.

There are limitless ways of turning man against man. Religion is surely one of them, but it's hardly the only one.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

A man who has been beating his head against a brick wall for nigh on a week without convincing anyone is trying to pretend at being a supreme logician. Isn't the point of a debate to, I don't know, prove something? How's that coming along for you? Not so well, huh.

I will tell you a secret of the Ancient Debating Masters. Are you ready? The secret is this: No One But You Is Taking This Seriously.

Use this Ancient Wisdom only for good! Never evil! The Secret Masters watch always.

FELIPE NO