Theological Discussion

Originally Posted by AliceNWondrland

Anyone else laughing at all the people who said, "Oh, religion is fine as long as the person doesn't try to push their beliefs on me"?

I don't know about Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc, but you guys do realize that a big part of Christianity is evangelism, right? If you're involved with a "Christian" who never tries to help you accept Jesus, they're not much of a Christian. So what you're really saying is that you don't mind dating people who claim to be Christians although they don't practice the teachings of Jesus.

I dont know what church you're attending, but I think you're making gross generalizations based on your own denomonational teachings.

I was part of the Catholic church for many years. They didn't tell us to push our shit on other people.

If you guys want to get all touchy-feely with your Lord and Savior, go for it. But don't preach to us about it.

How ya doing, buddy?

I'm Lutheran, and we're not taught to PUSH our "shit" on anyone. There's a huge difference between pushing and gently suggesting when God gives you an opening to do so.

I know Catholics, madam. Plenty of them. And I can tell you that you must have fallen asleep during the part where they told you that it is your responsibility to try to bring others to Christ.

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Catholics don't tell you anything. I went to Catholic church for the better part of my life and no one even knew my name. Jesus actually said to spread the Gospel, though.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

There are very few differences between Catholics and Lutherans (and Catholics and Episcopalians). I can't imagine that their teachings would be all that different.

EDIT: I just went down the hall and asked my Catholic friend about evangelism and she looked at me like I was crazy and told me in no uncertain terms that Catholics also believe it's the duty of all Christians to help other accept Jesus.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Matthew 28:19-20)

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Originally Posted by AliceNWondrland

I'm Lutheran, and we're not taught to PUSH our "shit" on anyone. There's a huge difference between pushing and gently suggesting when God gives you an opening to do so.

I know Catholics, madam. Plenty of them. And I can tell you that you must have fallen asleep during the part where they told you that it is your responsibility to try to bring others to Christ.

Alice.

How many of the population do YOU think doesn't know who Christ is.

If they wanted to live with Christ in their lives, they would.

I find it profoundly disrespectful when people think they need to inform others of "THE GREAT SUPER CHRIST." Maybe its me, but I see it as a form of condescension.

Human beings naturally think a lot about religion. It's in their nature. I expect people to form their own opinion about God, religion, and everything involved. I don't think its anyone's responsibility to push an agenda. You don't think its a little ODD that there's a built-in mechanism in your religion which makes it spread?

You know, like polygamy with the Mormons? Anything to get more supporters of a church.

And yea, I went to plenty of masses. And while a lot of them were given in LATIN, I think New England takes a different stand on religion than the South does.

Alice, the Bible says a lot of stupid things:
“If a woman grabs a man's privates during a fight, her hand is to be cut off. (Duet 25:11,12)”
- The eating of fat is prohibited forever. (Lev 3:17)
- You cannot round the corners of your beard or the hair on your temples. (Lev 19:27)
- Witches should be killed. (Ex 22:18)
- The congregation was to be a bastard free zone. The Bible was so dead set against bastards that their children, even to the tenth generation, could not enter the assembly of the Lord. (Duet 23:2) This is in keeping with God's principle of punishing children for the wrongdoings of their parents.
- Handicapped people could not approach God. Their presence would profane his sanctuary. (Lev 21:16-23) This scripture single-handedly offends almost every category of handicapped persons you can name. The blind, lame, injured, hunchbacks and dwarfs are specifically named. If anyone is left out, the catchall phrase "anyone with a blemish" is thrown in to cover them. I guess in Israel, the handicapped parking stalls were at the far end of the parking lot.
- Entrance into the assembly of the Lord was granted only to those with complete testicles. (Duet 23:1) Now, I will admit that keeping one's testicles in tact is a pursuit worthy of some attention, but I have to ask: What went on in the "assembly of the Lord" that required a complete and full set of testicles? And, since testicles are usually not on display, was there someone at the gate assigned to check?
- Anyone working on the Sabbath is to be killed. (Ex 35:2) This law was to protect the sanctity of Sunday afternoon football. Unfortunately, any player that touched the ball would have to be killed after the game, because he had touched a dead pig. (Lev 11:7,8) That would certainly make it easier to play defense.
- Menstruating women and everything they touch are unclean. The only cure for this uncleanness was for the priest to kill a couple of pigeons. (Lev 15:19-30) What could be more logical?
- If a couple has sex during the woman's period, the two are to be cut off from their people. (Lev 20:18) Once again, how would anyone know that this had happened? The couple is obviously not going to tell. Maybe the genital inspector from the temple made house calls.
- Women were officially second class citizens. They were considered possessions that were owned, (Prov 12:4) and were officially subordinate (1 Cor 14:33,34).
- Homosexual men were to be executed. (Lev 20:13) No mention is made of homosexual women.
- If a woman grabs a man's privates during a fight, her hand is to be cut off. (Duet 25:11,12) Now, is it really necessary to have this law on the books? You get the impression that the person who was writing the laws had recently experienced this and was still a little pissed off.
- False prophets are to be killed by their own parents. (Zech 13:3)
- Stubborn children were to be stoned, and the stoning was to be instigated by their parents. (Duet 21:18-21)
- And whatever you do, don't ever, ever, ever, pee against the wall (1 kings 16:11 KJV). OK, I know. The phrase "anyone who pees against the wall" is just a euphamism for men. I just couldn't resist this one.

Don't pick and chose.

I was speaking idiomatically.

I'm not saying they don't believe it. Just that most Catholics don't know what the hell they believe. Church is something they do on Easter to avoid pissing off their mother. I was a Catholic all my life, and it wasn't until I was 15 and decided to actually read the Bible that I knew anything. And I would go to church on a weekly basis. And took 2 years of CCD classes.


Okay Sass, that's great, but have you even read those books? I like how when people quote the "stupid things" the Bible says, they always look to the books that they have the smallest possibility of understanding.


By the way, nice cut and paste job.

http://www.liberator.net/articles/Ad...leJustice.html

I think I'll take that as a "no."

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Minion

Okay Sass, that's great, but have you even read those books? I like how when people quote the "stupid things" the Bible says, they always look to the books that they have the smallest possibility of understanding.

Yea, its nice to pick and chose things, right?

RIGHT.

I have read the goddamned Bible. Its really dry, really BORING, and really CONFUSED. I'm not a fan of it. It offers some good moral codes, when its not contradicting itself and making OUTLANDISH remarks!

Don't act like you need a primer to read the fucking thing, Minion. Its written for idiots to read it.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Alice.

How many of the population do YOU think doesn't know who Christ is.

If they wanted to live with Christ in their lives, they would.

I find it profoundly disrespectful when people think they need to inform others of "THE GREAT SUPER CHRIST." Maybe its me, but I see it as a form of condescension.

No offense, but it's more important to me as a Christian to do what is expected of me than to strive not to "condescend" or be disrespectful to people.

Don't get me wrong, here. I am NOT one of those bible thumpers who pulls out scripture as a response to all of life's trials and threatens and pressures and attempts to scare people into becoming a Christian. But there have definitely been moments - admittedly not many, but a couple - where I've felt God's presence and have strongly felt that He was telling me that the moment was right to talk to someone about Jesus. So that's what I did. I hope it didn't offend anyone or make them feel condescended to, but if it did, so be it.

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Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Yea, its nice to pick and chose things, right?

RIGHT.

Why don't you try to make an argument form you own mind instead of doing cut a paste job, which is basically spam?

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Don't act like you need a primer to read the fucking thing, Minion. Its written for idiots to read it.

It was written so that idiots who speak Hebrew and lived over 2000 years ago can read it.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by AliceNWondrland

No offense, but it's more important to me as a Christian to do what is expected of me than to strive not to "condescend" or be disrespectful to people.

I think maybe you're buying into a pyramid scheme without even knowing it.

The Ancients were pretty smart.

Quote:

Don't get me wrong, here. I am NOT one of those bible thumpers who pulls out scripture as a response to all of life's trials and threatens and pressures and attempts to scare people into becoming a Christian. But there have definitely been moments - admittedly not many, but a couple - where I've felt God's presence and have strongly felt that He was telling me that the moment was right to talk to someone about Jesus. So that's what I did. I hope it didn't offend anyone or make them feel condescended to, but if it did, so be it.

Have you ever studied psychology? Just curious.

O, look. Minion hates it when someone disagrees with him!

Originally Posted by Minion

Why don't you try to make an argument form you own mind instead of doing cut a paste job, which is basically spam?

I've made an argument for my own mind. I didn't JUST copy and paste. I DID copy and paste to save time. I am not going to go through every WEIRDO quote from the Bible, sir. I work for a living.

Now stop getting uppity because I don't believe in your white magic. We all know who Christ is, and we'll all believe if we're so inclined.

And yea, HEBREW. Do you know anything about Hebrew? Its a pretty DIVERSE language! Not so easy to translate!

There's nowhere I can't reach.

How 'bout you stop spamming with your cut and paste bullshit? I can do the same thing. What would that make this argument but a pile of shit-spam?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Minion

How 'bout you stop spamming with your cut and paste bullshit? I can do the same thing. What would that make this argument but a pile of shit-spam?

DIDN'T I JUST ADDRESS THAT ABOVE?

Or are you looking for an excuse to spam? If you want me out of your conversation and you want to circlejerk about Christ for a while, let me know!

Did you NOT NOTICE the rest of my post? Or are you just really upset that someone may DISAGREE with your religion and the values it presents?

You have this MAJOR PROBLEM with accepting what other people believe. Man. You live on a PLANET where theres more than ONE right answer! CALM YOURSELF. Jesus.

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You're pretty thick, arentcha? How is that one trick pony working out for you? Anytime I open my mouth in a way that you disapprove of, it's because I can't tolerate your beliefs, right? You poor thing.

Whatever, I'm outta here.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Sass, almost every quote you pasted was from the Old Testament. Jesus taught that his message of love took precedence over the harshness of the Old Testament. In fact, Jesus took issue with a lot of those old laws and was very vocal about it.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

She knows that, Alice, but she's going to keep on being a blockhead. It's how she gets her rocks off.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Minion

You're pretty thick, arentcha? How is that one trick pony working out for you? Anytime I open my mouth in a way that you disapprove of, it's because I can't tolerate your beliefs, right? You poor thing.

What? You're the one who disapproves of my beliefs. Talking to you about religion is like talking to a rock about the ocean.

I know you can TOLERATE my beliefs. We're friends, aren't we?

I just don't like how if I disagree with you, post some interesting things (which I didn't have the TIME to type up myself, since god forbid I have a job), and you subsequently throw a fit because I did that.

You didn't even bother addressing the points made. YOu just sat there shouting at me about GOD WHY ARE YOU PASTING THINGS.

I am just saying that it seems - IT SEEMS - that SOME Christians - not ALL - tend to ignore the rest of the Bible and pick and chose what they feel is right and wrong. AND THATS FINE! ABSOLUTELY FINE! Just ADMIT that the Bible says some FUCKED UP SHIT~

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Whatever, I'm outta here.

Maybe now we can talk about dating and religion again?

I am curious, though - would you ever date a non-Christian? Maybe a Jew or something? Maybe we can start the conversation over again, here, without the religions righteousness on either side. ;_;

Minion, are you going to keep trolling me or what. Just let me know.

Alice, I don't care what testament its from. You believe in it, don't you? I mean, otherwise, why both keeping the two testaments together? They are BOTH books of God.

Are you going to tell the Jews they're wrong, too? =/

How ya doing, buddy?

Quote:

Are you going to tell the Jews they're wrong, too? =/

*cough* Yes.

I mean, obviously I think they are. Otherwise, I'd be Jewish, right? They don't believe in the one dude that is their very salvation. How can I believe that what Jesus said is true (that He is the only way to Heaven) and not think the Jews are wrong? Either I belive in the teachings of Jesus or I don't. My political correctness only stretches so far, Sass.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by AliceNWondrland

*cough* Yes.

I mean, obviously I think they are. Otherwise, I'd be Jewish, right? They don't believe in the one dude that is their very salvation. How can I believe that what Jesus said is true (that He is the only way to Heaven) and not think the Jews are wrong? My political correctness only stretches so far, Sass.

And the Buddhists? And the Muslims? They're all going to hell?

Points for being honest though! <3

I just can't understand that mentality. I can not even CONCEIVE of being so....judgemental about other religions.

Why do you think your religion is the right religion when there are so many of them out there? Who is to say one is more correct than the other, WITHOUT human intervention?

I mean, you can see how silly it all sounds to me, right?

ADDITIONALLY, and more IMPORTANTLY:
I don't mean to condescend, if I am. I enjoy having a good conversation about religion, so long as it stays civil. If I offend you, I am sorry - and I apologize.

Just, you know. I don't tell you guys about the super great benefits of being a naturalist. I don't wish others would convert. I just want everyone to find their own path - no matter how different from my own.

Can you lend me the same favor?

There's nowhere I can't reach.

And that's been the very hardest hurdle for me to overcome as a Christian. I have a hard time understanding all that myself. I'm not a biblical expert like Minion, but Jesus was very clear about it. He said that there's only one way into Heaven and that's through Him. It's not being judgmental, really. You either believe in Jesus and what he said, or you don't. It's pretty simple.

I guess a "better" Christian wouldn't struggle with those very questions you asked me, but I do and I always have. That's one of the main things I can't wait to find out an aswer to when I get to Heaven.

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Originally Posted by AliceNWondrland

And that's been the very hardest hurdle for me to overcome as a Christian. I have a hard time understanding all that myself. I'm not a biblical expert like Minion, but Jesus was very clear about it. He said that there's only one way into Heaven and that's through Him. It's not being judgmental, really. You either believe in Jesus and what he said, or you don't. It's pretty simple.

Why would you believe in a man who said something so horrible? I am sorry if that sounds mean, or critical, but don't you think those are KIND OF war words?

I hope you see what I am saying, here.

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I guess a "better" Christian wouldn't struggle with those very questions you asked me, but I do and I always have. That's one of the main things I can't wait to find out an aswer to when I get to Heaven.

What makes you so sure you're going there?

Not that I am implying anything. I am just curious to see how you conclude that:
A.) There is a heaven
B.) You're getting in there, dude.
C.) Its really a totally awesome place to be.

I mean, if it had a bunch of people who said Jews were totally wrong - as well as everyone else - I would totally go hang out with the other guy, you know? ^_^

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Originally Posted by AliceNWondrland

That's one of the main things I can't wait to find out an aswer to when I get to Heaven.

The joke is you find out that God is actually Muslim

How ya doing, buddy?

Quote:

He said that there's only one way into Heaven and that's through Him.

This actually is a tough issue, but there is a concept of "accountability" which is present in the OT and is reiterated in the NT. Basically, you have to hear, understand and reject the Gospel to be not saved. Although being not saved is just spending eternity separate from God. The stereotypical concept of Hell is actually not Biblical and very misunderstood. So, in a sense, God is just giving you what you want either way. He doesn't seem like such a bad guy to me.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Why would you believe in a man who said something so horrible? I am sorry if that sounds mean, or critical, but don't you think those are KIND OF war words?

Jesus only did as He was told. And there were times when He wasn't so thrilled with his job, let me tell you. It wasn't His big idea, by the way - it was His lot in life. It was the idea of the God of the Jews to make Jesus the only way into Heaven. Is it His fault that His own people rejected Him?

Quote:

What makes you so sure you're going there?

I have no choice but to believe that, if I believe in Jesus and his teachings, which I do. See, that's the beauty of it. Getting into Heaven doesn't have anything to do with anything you do or don't do. All it takes is for you to accept that Jesus is what He said He was, and that He died for us so that we could have eternal life in Heaven. That's it.

If I believe that, which I do, I'm in like Flynn.

Originally Posted by Minion

This actually is a tough issue, but there is a concept of "accountability" which is present in the OT and is reiterated in the NT. Basically, you have to hear, understand and reject the Gospel to be not saved. Although being not saved is just spending eternity separate from God. The stereotypical concept of Hell is actually not Biblical and very misunderstood. So, in a sense, God is just giving you what you want either way. He doesn't seem like such a bad guy to me.

Thank goodness Minion showed back up! See, I didn't know that.

FELIPE NO

You're not being sarcastic are you, Alice?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Um, no. =/

Jam it back in, in the dark.