Jeremy Soule Interview

Some new stuff here. Think we got a lot out of him that other interviewers haven't! Check it out, and let me know what you think:

http://www.music4games.net/Features_Display.aspx?id=145

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Glad to see that he's proud of his work on Evermore..I would be too! I don't know if it's the case in this population, but everywhere else I've gone I've seen this soundtrack get a really (uncalled for) bad rap.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Having grown up loving the soundtrack of SOE, I got a chance to tell Jeremy that I loved Secret of Evermore at PLAY!. He gave me a long cruel stare of disbelief.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by RainMan

He gave me a long cruel stare of disbelief.

Probably amazed that you'd heard of it. Who, aside from die-hard Squeenix collectors and Jeremy Soule fans even remembers it any more?

EDIT: Nice interview, by the way, very interesting. Soule may have his fans and detractors, but he seems very passionate about VGM as an art form. That's always refreshing in the West, where it's always been something of a pariah.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by orion_mk3

EDIT: Nice interview, by the way, very interesting. Soule may have his fans and detractors, but he seems very passionate about VGM as an art form. That's always refreshing in the West, where it's always been something of a pariah.

Really? I just finished reading it and I got a totally different impression. Three sections really annoyed me (I can't quote from the site). The first was the second question, when he was asked about his status as a videogame composer. "Video" and "game" don't accurately describe games played on the TV? And "interactive movie" does? (or rather, something that means the same, but doesn't sound as "trendy") Ouch. That's strike one.

The other was when he was asked about distribution and he stated videogame music was a niche of classical music (this is about halfway down). That actually kind of pissed me off, because it's such an ignorant and backwards statement. I had to re-read it about 10 times to see if it was as bad as it sounded the first time and that I wasn't misquoting. Uh, no...Sorry. Videogame music encompasses classical music. Classical music is a style that can be included in the definition of VGM. Strike two.

The only thing I read I agreed with was that more staff and attention was needed for game music. Unfortunately, this was after he was asked about innovations in VGM and in the same paragraph, he answered "Oh yeah" to the question "Is it a good thing video game music is starting to sound more like film music". Ouch. I really think he thinks the two are largely interchangable and he's just talking about the stuff he's getting the most exposure from. I'll be curious to see how many games he winds up doing if he does start get contracted regularly for movies. Strike three.

Also, I got a small LOL at the "I'm sure I've self-plagiarized" paragraph.

Nice interview though. I have plenty of objections with the subject, but I look forward to reading anymore you may do in the future.

How ya doing, buddy?

I thought it was a really interesting interview. And I actually came away with a positive impression from this; I didn't get the feeling that you did, Goldfish. *shrug*

I'd like to hear some non-traditional stuff from him, so I'm looking forward to hearing what he does for the DS games and such that he's apparently working on.

Oh, and it was interesting to hear about his brother Julian. Is he ever credited for stuff? I've always just seen Jeremy's name, at least from what I can remember.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Haha, wow. Gold, I think you're being a little too harsh. I know what he was getting at when he talked about videogames as interactive movies. Really, think about it. Are these things just games? They're serious, and oftentimes they're quite artistic. Therefore, he doesn't think "video game" really describes what they are. You're really interacting with what you're seeing on screen. Seeing something on screen is what we typically associate with film or movies or television, so interactive movie does make sense. He doesn't reallyl seem satisfied with any of these classifications, though, so that's why he's saying we're stuck with VG for now.

And yeah, I understand what he's getting at with classical music, too. You can't treat VGM as it's own umbrella category, because it contains a little bit of everything. However, I think he was meaning that it's traditionally non-vocal, and it's actually composed. VGM doesn't come out of some jam session that you and your buddies are doing in a garage, like other genres. He's saying musicians sit down and compose in a methodical manner, likening it most to the classical genre. When you talk about genres, you talk about one genre coming out of another, and I don't think classical music stemmed from videogame music! I don't see any problem with what he said.

I know you read the whole thing, but pay attention to what he says about film and games. He noted that he understands in games that you're often spending a ton of time doing things, and he has to focus on making the music soft on the ear. He realizes there are differences. What I was getting at as far as asking about film music and game music was the issue of sound quality. I feel he answered it pretty well.

Oh yeah, and upon reading the interview after I was actually conducting it, he never mentioned DS games, but simply "mobile games," and more specifically, a cellphone title. So nix that DS comment. I said it at the end of the interview thinking I had heard something earlier in the interview that he actually didn't say! Sorry!

Lastly, Julian and Jeremy are both credited on every release on DirectSong.com. Unfortunately I didn't get the response I was looking for. I was hoping they would start labeling the music by who exactly wrote it, rather than crediting both of them. Anyway! Glad you enjoyed!

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Originally Posted by RainMan

Having grown up loving the soundtrack of SOE, I got a chance to tell Jeremy that I loved Secret of Evermore at PLAY!. He gave me a long cruel stare of disbelief.

Wait, wait, wait. They played a track from Secret of Evermore?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Quote:

Probably amazed that you'd heard of it. Who, aside from die-hard Squeenix collectors and Jeremy Soule fans even remembers it any more?

Possibly. However, at that particular moment I was wondering if he was thinking about eating me...his eyes got real big, his eyebrows furled and a grimace overtook his expression.

I actually just thought I had cursed a blue streak in Church on Christmas Day. I kinda did a "Well, see ya later!" and got the hell out of there.

My meeting with Nobuo was even worse. I am telling you...

Quote:

Wait, wait, wait. They played a track from Secret of Evermore?

Nonono. I went to the VIP meet and greet, where I was able to tell him in person. They didn't actually play Secret of Evermore at PLAY, unfortunately.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Quote:

Haha, wow. Gold, I think you're being a little too harsh. I know what he was getting at when he talked about videogames as interactive movies. Really, think about it. Are these things just games? They're serious, and oftentimes they're quite artistic. Therefore, he doesn't think "video game" really describes what they are. You're really interacting with what you're seeing on screen. Seeing something on screen is what we typically associate with film or movies or television, so interactive movie does make sense. He doesn't reallyl seem satisfied with any of these classifications, though, so that's why he's saying we're stuck with VG for now.

Yes, they're "just" games. They better be or there's some heavy duty conspiracy going on behind the scenes to dupe serious game players. I mean, I'm fine with admiring music, graphics and whatnot within a game, but if gameplay doesn't take precedence over everything, something is definitely wrong and gaming is in a world of shit if we're moving into that type of artistry. It doesn't take any skill to sit down and watch a movie. It does (or should...lol) take a certain degree of practice to improve at playing games. You can't get better at watching movies (you can appreciate certain aspects of it more though, but it's still the same thing). You can get better at games and end up rewarded by going further into them. Even if you're not getting better, you have various ways to cheat to advance (power-leveling as an example...You can't power-level through a movie).

It's impossible for me to ever consider the word "movie" when talking respectably about gaming as a whole (I can understand on a one-to-one basis, such as cinematic games). Maybe nowadays, it's not uncommon to relate the two (for better or for worse), but I think the basic aim of the two is (or should) something totally different. I hear "interactive movie", I think Dragon's Lair or one of those stupid Sega CD FMV games (sup, Night Trap).

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And yeah, I understand what he's getting at with classical music, too. You can't treat VGM as it's own umbrella category, because it contains a little bit of everything. However, I think he was meaning that it's traditionally non-vocal, and it's actually composed. VGM doesn't come out of some jam session that you and your buddies are doing in a garage, like other genres. He's saying musicians sit down and compose in a methodical manner, likening it most to the classical genre. When you talk about genres, you talk about one genre coming out of another, and I don't think classical music stemmed from videogame music! I don't see any problem with what he said.

See, I think if that's what he meant, he would have said that. It's hard for me to sit here and say that sheet music exists for every piece of VGM I've heard or that every track was meticulously planned out. I've rarely (actually never) heard classical music used as a descriptor that can so readily encompass as much popular music that is inherent in VGM, whereas I have heard it strictly as a stylistic description (Sugiyama and Hamauzu as examples) I think he was referring to the latter. In any case, "popular" music can be written as well, so that doesn't make much sense. Offhand, in fact, I know Akira Yamaoka is illiterate at reading music.

And just so there's no confusion, I never hinted that classical music came from game music. That would be idiotic. However, game music is not a genre, but it is a grouping that can include classical music. What Soule said was that game music is under classical...Which should make no sense to anyone who's heard a wide variety of game music, whether meaning written or stylistically. Now if he had said game music was under "soundtracks", that would have been a much more clear and accurate statement.

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I know you read the whole thing, but pay attention to what he says about film and games. He noted that he understands in games that you're often spending a ton of time doing things, and he has to focus on making the music soft on the ear. He realizes there are differences. What I was getting at as far as asking about film music and game music was the issue of sound quality. I feel he answered it pretty well.

I don't really agree with the bolded part. A lot of film music I hear is way too passive as is (or "soft on the ear") and the best game music I've heard is the kind that jumps right out at you and makes itself heard and known. Which is why I've always preferred the latter to the former. I prefer not to see the two mixed in a way that makes them nearly interchangable. I don't think you can make game music as incidental as film music is without sacrificing overall quality (you can plan a piece of film music to go with a scene...You can't plan a piece of music to similarly go with a gameplay sequence and I don't understand why you'd want to) The popular perception (particularly among the gaming media) is that the more "out-of-the-way" and film-like a score is, the better. I think this just comes about because film music is held in higher regard than game music overall and the more VGM "imitates" film music, the better off it bodes for its' composers and its' overall regard with critics.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I sympathize with Goldfish, to a degree. A very large degree...

I pride myself as an old-school gamer who is being left behind in the dust of tomorrow. Fancy graphics, cutting edge design...Meh. Most of my true joy in gaming is when looking behind me at the plethora of games which serve as a sort of 8 bit graveyard, of sorts, to a new shopping mall that is modern video games. It seems that video games are changing dramatically right now and they are becoming more cinematic, subtler and more drawn out.

However, I see nothing wrong with this, in and of itself. Video games are at a frontier where realism and interactivity are becoming more finely tuned. People are experimenting with this combination and unsurprisingly, good things are being done to further the medium. If anything, cinematic games are simply offering a new contender to the playing field. I appreciate having the choice of multiple game types.

Thats not to say that gameplay is no longer a part of gaming...Games will be games, because they are games. Yea. Old school gamers will always love old school games and likely there will always be a market for these exploits.

Goldfish, I think you might be the old school luddite and I can hardly blame you. (because I would have to blame myself as well)

It would be easy to assume that 8 bit games were the best that it got as there were many amazing gaming memories to be had in that time frame. Sadly, (if you choose to look at change as a bad thing) I think you and I are in the minority with how these past experiences are leading to how games are being made in the present.
Simply, developers can only develop what will sell and sadly, old school gaming isn't in much demand these days. I have no reason to think that there won't be some sort of egress at some point.

But to blame these transgressions of era upon the shoulders of Jeremy Soule simply implies too much generalizing for words. Simply put, gamers are getting what they want. No need to be vengeful...?

Times are changing and video games are exploiting basic human needs per the entertainment idiom. Money talks and economically, it is being proven that cinematic games have vastly "greater" potential than old school efforts in selling copies.
Soule can't be blamed for writing music that helps to musically sell a more interactive approach to gaming.

If you want to blame anyone for this, blame the consumer for continually buying these types of games. It is in this process that video gaming is in the state that it is.

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I personally find Soule's music to be pretty damn melodic and interesting as far as Western orchestral scores go.

I'm really with you all the way. I love old games and I love chip music, but games really are changing into something beyond games. When I think of a game, I think of board games and card games, which videogames are not. I'm fine calling 'em videogames, because that's what I've grown up with, but I understand that it's really not the best description for them.

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Don't get me wrong...There are TONS of awful arcade/NES/whatever games (maybe 80% of these in existence are junk...ROM sets tell a damning story). As well, there are enough good and fun modern games on the shelf now. I wouldn't suggest otherwise, nor would I force people to believe "OMFG, 8bit ROOLZ U FUKING NEWB!". But they're games...You play them and buy them with the intent of doing so. You can't get away from that simple, basic concept (and if you do, you're an idiot, because actual movies cost about 1/3 the price of a new videogame). Soule's response alluded to a sort of ignorance towards that (as if something being a "game" was a bad thing, in comparison to movies) and sounded rather snobby about it. I'm not putting everything on his shoulders, but he is at the forefront of the industry and I think he reflects the general sentiment of a lot of people.

I mean, if people started calling Monopoly an interactive entrepeneurship instead of a board game because they thought calling it a "game" sounded too juvenile...Wouldn't that sound just a little bit stupid?

I was speaking idiomatically.

Jeremy Soule has grown up playing video games, just as all of us likely have. I think he is all too aware of the bullshit stigma that "games" usually attract and is therefore careful not to "impugn" the validity of games by referring to it in only those terms.

I have reason to assume that he doesn't have very fond memories of Secret of Evermore. I am sure that he is fighting to give videogames the respect they deserve, but that likely means changing people's ideas about what a game actually is, or more importantly, what it can be.

Perhaps it was the fear of his life's work being undermined which allows him to speak of games beyond one dimension...perhaps my point is moot.

At any rate, Soule is a very outspoken video game advocate and always will be. If anything, he is supporting a more contemporary view of video games that perhaps the layman will find no difficulties in appreciating. Perhaps this is good, perhaps not...but the scope of video games is widening from such influence and that can't be a terrible thing.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

http://www.armchairempire.com/Interv...remy_soule.htm

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6. In early games the melodies had a very noticeable presence, allowing them to stand out but nowadays more and more game soundtracks are following the route of film scores, using more subtle pieces. Do you see game music continuing down this path, or is music for this entertainment medium still experimenting in what direction it could go?

Soule: Just as in film, all of a game's components - the graphics, music, sound effects, movements, characters, etc. - must work together to appeal to all of a player's senses. The job of the musical score is to reflect and enhance the various emotions experienced by the player. It's exactly like the soundtrack for a film - when you combine it with the story, characters and events portrayed on screen, it has a very powerful effect. Game music must continue to evolve in this direction in order for this entertainment medium to have lasting value.

Those bolded parts make Baby Jesus cry. The rest sounds good, but those bolded parts...WHEW, they stink. I actually found this by accident, looking at his wikipedia entry...

I just think he thinks movies > games as far as status goes and that is the public perception. Want proof?

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My first real gig in the games business came about in 1994 when I was hired as an in house composer for SquareSoft. I landed this opportunity as the result of a demo I created to showcase what I believed music for games should sound like. I had played a lot of computer games and felt the existing music lacked drama and intensity. So, I went out on a bit of a limb, rented some state of the art equipment and made a demo. Shortly after SquareSoft reviewed it, they offered me a job. Secret of Evermore was the first title I composed for.

Pew...

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by GoldfishX

Those bolded parts make Baby Jesus cry. The rest sounds good, but those bolded parts...WHEW, they stink. I actually found this by accident, looking at his wikipedia entry...

I just think he thinks movies > games as far as status goes and that is the public perception. Want proof?

It seems that the real problem you have with Soule is that you don't like his approach to scoring games, which is fine, as it's a personal opinion. But I don't really see the point of going through his interviews with a fine-tooth comb--you didn't need to read them to know his style wasn't for you, you just had to listen to his music.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Quote:

Soule:The job of the musical score is to reflect and enhance the various emotions experienced by the player. It's exactly like the soundtrack for a film - when you combine it with the story, characters and events portrayed on screen, it has a very powerful effect. Game music must continue to evolve in this direction in order for this entertainment medium to have lasting value.

Perhaps Soule is saying that video game music should better reflect the sum of its parts to make more poignant emotional music, as is often found in a good film...unless I am completely mistaken.

It seems to me that he is making more of a case that the music should work in congruence with the whole product (visuals, character, story, etc) than proposing an argument stating that music MUST to be a certain type in order to be progressively worthwhile. I don't think he was speaking in opposition to other types of musical setups, but rather how conventions of film music can best be utilized to aid and abet aspects of storytelling during gameplay to create a better connection between the game and the player. He is simply using film as an example.

I must also point to Final Fantasy VI, which is considered by many to be one of the great soundtracks in video game history. Consider that Final Fantasy VI was inspired by Star Wars motif development and is largely motivic, a convention which began in Wagnerian theater, long before film.
However, Final Fantasy VI emulates the 'musical setup' of Star Wars very heavily (bringing in film score conventions such as character themes, reprisals and symphonic orchestration) and is considered in many ways to be a mock up of John Williams early efforts.

Stupidly put, the Ring Cycle came first, then Star Wars, then Final Fantasy VI. This continuance of musical ideals in such elaborate forms does not belong to either film, nor video game music. It is simply an element of musicianship which rewards the participant for being attentive, thus increasing the likelihood of a connection and increasing the interactivity of the experience.

I believe Soule's comments favour the indelible emotional potential that cinematic music can create within a game.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by RainMan

I must also point to Final Fantasy VI, which is considered by many to be one of the great soundtracks in video game history. Consider that Final Fantasy VI was inspired by Star Wars motif development and is largely motivic, a convention which began in Wagnerian theater, long before film.
However, Final Fantasy VI emulates the 'musical setup' of Star Wars very heavily (bringing in film score conventions such as character themes, reprisals and symphonic orchestration) and is considered in many ways to be a mock up of John Williams early efforts.

Stupidly put, the Ring Cycle came first, then Star Wars, then Final Fantasy VI. This continuance of musical ideals in such elaborate forms does not belong to either film, nor video game music. It is simply an element of musicianship which rewards the participant for being attentive, thus increasing the likelihood of a connection and increasing the interactivity of the experience.

Yes, but Final Fantasy VI also has much in common with the pop-influenced styles of much earlier game music as well. And frankly, I think its' strength comes from this (read: the strength of the individual compositions) than its' various reprisals, character themes and whatnot that you mentioned. If these qualities alone are what draws some people to FFVI, more power to them. I enjoy it more for the varied listening experience and the strength of each individual track (and it is rare for me to find an RPG soundtrack where every track feels important). I simply wouldn't expect to hear something like "New Continent", "Devil's Lab" or "Decisive Battle" in the confines of an average Soule score and tracks of that ilk boost my enjoyment of the score considerably (both ingame and out of game). I think you just happened to pick out a hybrid soundtrack that pleases both camps a great deal.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by RainMan

Nonono. I went to the VIP meet and greet, where I was able to tell him in person. They didn't actually play Secret of Evermore at PLAY, unfortunately.

The wrath of the missing comma.

Originally Posted by GoldfishX

...but if gameplay doesn't take precedence over everything, something is definitely wrong and gaming is in a world of shit if we're moving into that type of artistry.

Silent Hill, anyone?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by GoldfishX

Yes, but Final Fantasy VI also has much in common with the pop-influenced styles of much earlier game music as well. And frankly, I think its' strength comes from this (read: the strength of the individual compositions) than its' various reprisals, character themes and whatnot that you mentioned...

...

Thats very true. From a melodic standpoint, there is no fair way to compare Uematsu's finest work with that of Soule. Its a rather lopsided comparison, especially if melody is determined to be the most important characteristic in video game music writing. Melody is really what makes video game music so distinctive.

In the end, I'll take Final Fantasy VI and the strength of its musical principle over that of any film, theater production, etc.

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The wrath of the missing comma.

Sorry about that! Its good to know that even if Jeremy pretends not to like SOE, he has supporters of his early work.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

The only thing this interview did for me is get me kind of curious about Julian Soule...

I was speaking idiomatically.

He needs more performed music, and needs to quit using synth! His work sounds TONS better when played live.

How ya doing, buddy?

I think there are good things to be said about both. I think I'm getting to the point where I can tell the difference between the synth and live stuff, but really, to somebody who isn't listening closely, it's quite hard to tell. Supreme Commander was written with synth, and it sounds fantastic. I think more than the sound quality from synth or live performance, the quality of the composition is much more important.

FELIPE NO