[PS3] PlayStation 3 Discussion Thread

Originally Posted by Metal Sphere

Could it be because of the water simulations the cell has to be running on some stages? 4GB a stage? SL BR are 25GB, it's a bit much for them to be topping it off so soon.

Na those are mostly procedural in nature so they don't take much space. I bet most textures just have a few layers of damage textures. So figure the entire map is actually textured four times.

Quote:

But they're not so huge as to take up that much space. The texture work on the dragons is impressive, but overall there seems to be a lack of either good ones or decent AF.

Again it depends on a lot of things. What if the dragons have 15 levels of damage textures? This honestly isn't an unreasonable number for a main model. So you just multiplied your required texture space of one model by 15. Apply the same idea to enemy models but say with 4-5 layers. Oh and you need your normal maps and lighting maps and such for each texture layer as well. Starting to get the picture? Now because of the nature of this type of thing you won't be loading all 15 layers at once. Rather when a texture 'gets damaged' you will swap the texture out with another texture. This is commonly what is done when developers mention the streaming abilities of the Blu-Ray drive. Your entire level can be 4Gb, but you won't be loading it all into memory at once.

Quote:

IIRC, both the CELL and RSX handle audio to some degree, so it wouldn't be a problem there. As for the BR streaming, I'd have to find out what the bandwidth is for a 2x BR drive.

It isn't an issue of processing. Actually uncompressed sound has no processing requirements because...you don't need to uncompress the stream. Also 2x BR-Drive = 72Mbps. Now you might be thinking "3Mbps isn't a big deal compared to that." Well that again isn't the whole story. If you are directly streaming audio without a buffer then you can't interrupt the stream at any point to load something else or the sound will obviously skip.

Well the obvious solution is you can make a sound buffer, then if you need to interrupt your sound stream then you can start reading from the buffer. But let's consider that. I just mentioned uncompressed sound runs at about 3 Mbps. A reasonable length buffer you would need when considering the need to stream in and out textures on almost constant basis would be a 60ish MB sound buffer. You are going to use 60 MB of 256MB of main memory just to buffer your sound stream? Uh no.... And of course this is all assuming you'd even be able to do something like this. You also need to account for seek times and such when reading stuff off the disc. I just really don't see it being a reasonable option to stream uncompressed sound off the disc if you are doing any type of texture streaming which most PS3 games will be doing.

Quote:

Well, I won't say it quite like that. The developers have the space, and the tools in front of them to present us with varied environments. Whether they're willing and/or talented enough is the question. It's what separates the White Knight Stories and Ridge Racer 7 from Sega's pathetic golf game.

This is true. Developers still need to be willing to make use of such space and tools. Fortunately texturing these days don't really require a lot of manpower or time.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Elixir

Except this isn't going to work because people will be signing up ebay accounts and bidding on PS3 ebay auctions deliberately to ruin them. Yes, I can see people boycotting PS3 auctions before they've even began. All the grand parents, mothers and fathers will be so pissed off.

It's sad because people don't grasp this concept. You aren't guaranteed to resell a PS3. The same thing happened with the 360.

So then they can return them if they don't sell it. It's not like they are opened items.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by DragoonKain

Are they supposed to ship a second shipment before xmas?

They are expected to ship around 100,000 each week after the initial shipment. Also it seems Sony was able to secure a large volume of blue laser diodes recently so they might just be able to fulfill expectations for once.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Mucknuggle

So what's the word on selling PS3s on eBay? Will it be ok when the release day comes along or is there going to be a ban on PS3 auctions?

It seems Ebay is being pressured to remove all PS3 hardware related auctions until early next year. At this point nobody really knows if they will actually put a ban on the auctions.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Looks like a lot of the textures in Lair are getting an overhaul, which is to be expected. Hopefully we'll see the same thing with MGS4 as development furthers.

FELIPE NO

The funny thing is people don't realize things aren't like they used to be. In the 'old days' the launch shipment came then you had to wait around a month+ for the next big shipment. Sony is a modern global distributer and they are claiming they will be releasing another 100,000 units per week after launch. Being they haven't said otherwise (and they would have by now for investors) then people might just have to wait another few weeks at most.

Quote:

This is getting crazy... do you guys remember if it was the same when PS2 came out? or it's getting bigger and bigger with each generation?

It was similar, I guess people don't remember Sony only had 500,000 PS2s for the US release as well. Of course they brought in another half a million later that week and it had already been in Japan for a year meaning units were not being split between the two countries. Japan also had near a million units for their PS2 launch. Only having 100,000 PS3s there is going to result in some murders for sure.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Quote:

I wonder of that emulation problem could be fixed with a firmware update.

Without a doubt these are issues that can largely be fixed with firmware updates. Plus consider the situation. We are talking thousands of games, some only showing the problems midway though play. It just isn't possible for Sony to playtest all of these games to find all of the BC problems for the launch. Fortunately, unlike the PS2, the PS3 can be updated to fix these problems once they are found by the general public.

Quote:

I haven't been up to date but acknowledging that the PS3 is "region free," does this include PS2 and PS1 titles?

Unfortunately it seems both PS1 and PS2 games are still region coded. I'm not exactly sure of the reasoning myself but hopefully this might be something Sony can overturn at a later date with a firmware update.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Alai

Yeah, the PS3 can be updated through firmware. But there is only so much you can do by updating firmware. You should'nt count on them being able to fix it through firmware. Maybe they can, maybe they can't. You can change alot about an electronic system through the firmware, but you can't necessarily change the way a game is processed or how a processor chip may function.

Sure you can, that is the entire point of a firmware update. The EE and GS are reprogrammable DSP chips meaning their instruction sets can be changed and updated. With this ability they can essentially change the way an instruction is processed or change the function of the chip. And if for some reason they can't get a method to work in hardware they can always use special case software instruction emulation.

The only thing that is really going to hold back improving BC on the PS3 is the willingness of developers to work with Sony to iron out the issues. Developers are going to have to go through their code and figure out why something isn't working (costs money) or be willing to provide Sony with some source code for the Sony engineers to look through which is risky for the developer.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by SOLDIER

Yet another new concern with the PS3, this one regarding resolution scaling.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129072

I'm not sure if this affects all TV's that don't feature 720p (which I'm pretty sure mine does not), or if it varies with each set. Metal helped me pick my TV, and I believe he mentioned mine could upscale a 720p image, but I'm still concerned.

Even if Resistence and a few other games don't upscale 720p, can this be fixed with yet another update?

Also, the people at my work yesterday, upon finding out that I have a PS3 reserved, kept bugging me to take the day off. I kept telling them that I wouldn't do anything that dishonest, but they kept insisting, saying it's no problem. It's a temptation I don't need.

This shouldn't be an issue since nearly all HDTVs have their own scalers to fit the image to their native resolution. Most TVs will take a 720p input and scale it to 1080i/p if the TV requires it. That thread seems like a huge mess of misunderstanding.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Quote:

I have to disagree with that. I'd rather have the game not work at all than have it work with glaring errors. That's why all those games don't work for 360 yet. Because they haven't fixed it to where it won't have shit like random noises playing over static or "40 - 60% of the "pre-battle" transition screen appears black, and the remaining portion of the screen appears corrupted."

Maybe that's just me.

Yeah it is just you. I'd rather have an out of the box 90+% compatibility rate. Seriously, are you even reading the problems here? These are small problems that crop up some of the time at specific points of the game. What exactly are you expecting here? For Sony to throughly playtest every PS1 and PS2 game to make sure every aspect of every game works correctly?

Yeah let's hold up the release of the PS3 for six months so the engineers can work out that problem with the black box around Cloud in the ten year old FF7.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Slayer X

Pretty much any movie made before the DVD format can't really be improved upon from the original. However almost all movies since then are shot with digital HD cameras that have much better resolution then that of a DVD and take gigabytes of strage to hold, these are the movies that will be able to use BR, that and animated films as pointed out earlier.

Not exactly true. Movies are transfered to analog film (35mm, 65mm or 70mm). These have a potential resolution which exceeds a 2000x2000 digital resolution while still looking better than when originally shown on a theater screen, so doing old transfers to HD isn't a problem. Of course they won't be as sharp as new movies recorded with the latest HD cameras, but a film transfer to home movie is going to look a heck of a lot better at 1080p native than a 480p being scaled to 1080p by a TV scaler.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by xman25

Remember that very scary looking guy who was selling a PS3 on ebay and he was naked, standing behind a PS3 box and was threatening to move the box if no one bid on the console? Well, here is an auction that's not as scary:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ayphotohosting

xman25

I can already feel the aids attacking me after opening that box.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Slayer X

This update was almost pointless. The PS1 games did need the upscaling to make them look decent on newer TVs. However as far as the PS2 games go, most TVs already have screen ratio and zooming abilities, so the stretch feature isn't even needed, and the 1080p stuff hasn't been much of an improvement. I would have been way more excited if they had added 16:9 formatting.

Nope not needed. No improvement at all:



Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by Slayer X

I never said that there was No improvement, I just said that there wasn't anything that huge for all the hype this was getting before release. Sure the 1080 image looks great, but when you're sitting 5 feet or more from the screen, it's not that huge seeing how PS2 games will never look all that great compared to current games anyway. I'm just saying that I would have rather had the 16:9 rendering more then the 1080p capability. I'm not saying that my opinion is in everyone's best interest, cause it's not. It's simply what I would've wanted.

Well without going into too much technical detail, offering an aspect ratio the engine doesn't originally support is impossible.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I think I'm ready to pull the trigger on one of these after seeing the upscaling firsthand. I wanted to check with something though. Anyone happen to know if the newest firmware resolved the emulation issues with Ar Tonelico?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Slayer X

First off this is just an E3 time deal, nothing permanent. 07/15 - 07/21

However something is better then nothing, and thoes who wanted it to just be $100 cheaer now have their chance.

Apparently not.

http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=16721

Quote:

It wasn't clear at first if this ad was a special deal specific to the electronics retailer or if it's indeed a retail-wide price cut instituted by Sony Computer Entertainment America (SCEA). As it turns out, a merchandising manager (who wished to remain anonymous) at one of the world's biggest retailers has confirmed to GameDaily BIZ that the price drop is indeed retail-wide and it's scheduled to take place on July 12, although the first wave of ads to promote the PS3's new price won't kick in until Sunday, July 15.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Slayer X

I wish I wasn't saying what I'm about to, however it is the truth.

Your link there just sais that the price cut is NOT limited to Circuit City. It doesn't disprove that it IS for a limited time.

Also, look below;



This could all change, however as it stands now this is the case until Sony elaborates on the pricing plans or if the price change remains after the final day.

Do I really need to define 'industrial wide price-cut' as opposed to 'industrial wide sale'?

Also advertised prices apply to the entire magazine. Nowhere does it state directly under the PS3 'for limited time only'

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Slayer X

Alright then. I just wanted to poke at any holes in it because I know if I took that information and told someone else that they'd try to point out the same flaws so thanks for the concrete explanation. ^^

Sometimes it's good to be wrong... this is one of them. (Though I already spent $650CAD for mine, oh well VF5 was worth it)

The closest we have is a major retailer being directly quoted from Gamedaily, which is a 'professional' gaming site and is normally more reliable on sources compared to IGN, 1up, etc which are consumer gaming sites, saying the unit price will be cut $100 nationwide come July 12th. This still makes it a rumor, but a strong one so I'm sure na-sayers will be quick to point that out and with justification.

But yes, you are correct to keep mind that nothing official has been released by Sony yet. We'll have to wait until E3 to see if an official announcement is made.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Musharraf

I like how people still complain about the price. There's a Blu-Ray-DVD drive built in, you fags, that makes the PS3 one of the cheapest Blu-Ray-DVD players on the market. If you're just interesting in playing HD games, you could as well buy a XBOX 360.

High quality has a high price. This isn't a console for hipsters.

The price really don't concern me personally since I can easily afford it. But lets be realistic here; it's not going to see the mainstream success it needs with a $600 price tag and its still probably won't see it with a $500 price tag either. Sony's top priority should be continued manufacturing refinement to get the thing in the $300-$400 dollar range so more people start buying the thing so developers are more comfortable with developing their games for the platform.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by 2401 Penitent Tangent

More than likely, with the slow speed of the PS3's BR drive, there will just be data duplication all over the disc to cut down on load times. Oblivion already does this. It might well become common practice, who knows.

One game from a company with a bad programming habit record does this and you expect it to become common practice, wut?

Also slow BR drive? Hope you realize only about 20% of the data on a DVD9 can be read at max speed and for reference roughly only 25% of the data on the Xbox 360 drive can be read faster than the PS3 blu-ray drive can transfer at. When reading the outer edge of the first layer the XBox DVD drive transfers at a lower rate than the PS3 blu-ray drive and the second layer of the DVD-9 just gets worse. The PS3 blu-ray drive transfers data roughly twice as fast as a 12x DVD drive reading from the second layer of a DVD9. Oh and the XBox 360 development standard requires the API data to be present in that first 25% which is generally most of it that space. Actual game data sits on parts of the disc that all read slower than the PS3 Blu-Ray drive does.


Also that Kilzone 2 trailer is impressive. I honestly didn't think they could get it that close to the E3 trailer from last year. This game also has a long way to go in development so further improvements all around should be expected.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

You pretty much answered your own question. Killzone 2 is a largely unfinished game using an engine built from scratch. Many of those effects look exactly like base placeholder effects for shader code that is not complete yet. The bullet hole effect is a big example of this and that flame effect looks like it is nothing more than the base polygon structure without any of the shaders applied to it yet.

The trailer also doesn't seem to have a particle engine in it yet either. Again these types of final shader effects and particle engines are traditionally added during the first few polishing rounds. I'd be surprised if this trailer was running on anything higher than an alpha level graphics engine at this point.

FELIPE NO

Alright, I pretty much give up on Sony. They really are far too detached from the consumer desires right now. Consumers want a cheaper PS3, not more packed in shit for the same price.

I mean, unless they plan on just replacing the 60GB units later on and selling those for $499 and the Motorstorm bundle for $599, this doesn't make much sense...though that doesn't make much sense either since you'd basically be paying $100 for a game.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Qwarky

Stop calling Oblivion an RPG already. Just because it has swords and armor doesn't make it one.

It's interesting to see J-RPGs are largely missing from all next-gen consoles because of partly the smallish user-base for both 360 and PS3 in japan, and probably because most J-RPGs have a lineage of very old and "out-dated" mechanics everyone's trying their best to get rid of right now, it seems. If people don't want 2D games anymore, why should they want to stand in a row waiting for a turn?

Or it could be people just aren't looking. Fifteen jRPGs are in the works for the PS3 according to this: http://www.rpgfan.com/news/2007/1202.html.

On top of that Megazone 23, Tear of Tiara, and the Sega Sakura Taisen teams new game have recently been announced. Now how many of these making it stateside is a different matter but they are being made. I think it is more of an issue of a lot of these developers are just now coming down off of PS2 development projects to start new PS3 projects. Of mentioned I know 4 or 5 of those games are 2D sprite based games.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Qwarky

Notice how the article doesn't actually list the 15 titles, since they don't know them, and neither does the general public. Hence my use of words, largely missing. Aka no one in RPG Forums is interested in buying the console just yet (since any other type of quality game seems irrelevant).


Mush, I couldn't understand half of what you were trying to say, but it sounded like you were saying PS3 doesn't have a small user base and the reason is.. that.. Final Fantasy is popular.. everywhere? I think?

I was saying I haven't heard of that many JRPGs being developed right now for the PS3 (nor 360) and I can only assume it's partly due to not that many people owning the console just yet. In Japan, at least.

A column at an RPG fan site saying they heard someone tell them that some magazine might have said that so and so many titles might be in development isn't quite the same thing.

And you'll notice FFXI and beyond has been doing their best to step away from the JRPG traditions.

No it doesn't list all 15 titles, but it does specifically mention 11 of those 15 with direct confirmations (not rumors) from each company. Plus the latest three announced also have specifics.

And no there have been companies like NIS, GUST and Takuyo that have purposely held on to the jRPG traditions and all of their games have been selling well.

There's nowhere I can't reach.