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lincoln, a great man?
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Tiqulone
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Old Aug 22, 2008, 11:46 AM #26 of 53
So you are saying its good to never look at the end result or what Lincoln did but lets just go back in time and fail to understand how times were back then. maybe we should hold court and find Lincoln guilty of hate speech and racism too right?

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Misogynyst Gynecologist
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Old Aug 22, 2008, 11:48 AM 1 #27 of 53


This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
SpaceMonk
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Old Aug 22, 2008, 01:04 PM Local time: Aug 22, 2008, 01:04 PM #28 of 53
500 Years Later

This was a quote by Lincoln on Oct. 13th, 1858 on a debate with Steven A. Douglas used for the documentary 500 Years Later

I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races--that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which will ever forbid the two races living together in terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior. I am as much as any other man in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.

...notwithstanding all this, there is no reason in the world why the negro is not entitled to all the rights enumerated in the Declaration of Independence--the right of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I hold that he is as much entitled to these as the white man. I agree with Judge Douglas that he is not my equal in many respects, certainly not in color--perhaps not in intellectual and moral endowments; but in the right to eat bread without leave of anybody else which his own hand earns [the Republican version of what the other rights amount to?], he is my equal and the equal of Judge Douglas and the equal of every other man.



Over the years through primary, high school, and college, the history is usually tailored in a way to avoid the negative view of Lincoln. For me, Lincoln was great for what he did for the country but also horrible (understated) for what he didn't do.

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Last edited by SpaceMonk; Aug 22, 2008 at 01:06 PM. Reason: forgot to say who said it
Bradylama
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Old Aug 22, 2008, 01:47 PM Local time: Aug 22, 2008, 01:47 PM #29 of 53
Quote:
Why judge him and in judging him like his are we no better than the Ku Klux Klan groups that write hit pieces of MLK or Malcom X?
Of course we're better. Lincoln's long-term plan for race relations involved sending the niggers back to Africa, and we know how well that's turned out.

Quote:
A few things not covered in high school level history is freed blacks were allowed to own slaves and did so in great numbers. The main problem is people either unable to fit parts of history in their new age political correct world or want to leave out what they can't explain.
It doesn't have to be explained because there weren't any white slaves. Nothing about black slave owners challenges pre-conceived norms about the American slave trade.

Quote:
What I object to is when people judge history by today's standards.
My Renaissance professor keeps telling us that "The Dark Ages" is a prejudiced term, but I still can't think of any way that the period didn't suck ass compared to Rome.

I was speaking idiomatically.
Misogynyst Gynecologist
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Old Aug 22, 2008, 02:34 PM #30 of 53
Over the years through primary, high school, and college, the history is usually tailored in a way to avoid the negative view of Lincoln. For me, Lincoln was great for what he did for the country but also horrible (understated) for what he didn't do.
I'm going to tell you why you're an idiot and its for very obvious reasons. So obvious, that I expect you to be Shivley or some other dickless fuckbag.

The first thing is that Lincoln - first and foremost - was an elected politician. He had to get up and say certain things that were "expected" of him. That is - if he were to get up in front of people during a debate and say BLACKS ARE EQUAL IN EVERY WAY he'd have been viewed as no better than John Brown. No one, and I mean no one, gets up and demands sociological reformations of that calibur and expect to remain in office or ever be taken seriously again.

Even if Lincoln wanted to free the slaves and make them equal to Whites - he knew it couldn't happen. This is *exactly* what he means when he mentions "I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which will ever forbid the two races living together in terms of social and political equality". It wasn't that he didn't want Blacks to be equal - its that he knew it can't happen because people are people and people are prejudiced in everything they do.

To this day - in terms of social status - blacks *still* are not equal to whites in many ways. Yes, you have both races on either side of the poverty line, but which one stereotypically lives in the ghettos and the poorer sections?

Lincoln, in his incredible wisdom, realized that change was a gradual, slow process. America was a struggling nation and to remove the slaves from the South would create an economical disaster, moral implications or not. Looking back, we can see that Lincoln realized that he had to be very careful in the balancing act between what he could do and what he'd be damned for. For that, he did an outstanding job.

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Bradylama
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Old Aug 22, 2008, 03:12 PM Local time: Aug 22, 2008, 03:12 PM #31 of 53
I don't think surmising that Lincoln was a crafty dude constitutes a real interpretation of his character or a credit to his legacy. People can't stomach the idea that Lincoln could be kind of racist and also an abolitionist, but intellectual inconsistencies aren't uncommon for great Americans.

Jefferson was the biggest slave-owning hypocrite the country has ever known, who unlike some other slave owning founders didn't emancipate his on his death. Yet Jefferson still set a precedent for man's universal right in the States and had no illusions about his own status as a slave owner.

Lincoln was a free soiler before he was an abolitionist, and while some people like to speculate that he began to increasingly view blacks as equal it's not important. What is important is that what was accomplished during Lincoln's presidency, and by no small part due to his direct involvement, are the most important achievements in American history. Even Lincoln dieing at the time he did was arguably for the best depending on how you view his Reconstruction plan.

Trying to think of Lincoln a secret darkie lover tries to ignore the fact that he was human and a product of his times. Even John Brown, for all his admirable qualities was nonetheless a murderer. The fact that these people could do so much good despite being so seriously flawed is what I feel makes them great.

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SpaceMonk
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Old Aug 22, 2008, 09:08 PM Local time: Aug 22, 2008, 09:08 PM #32 of 53
huh?!

I'm going to tell you why you're an idiot and its for very obvious reasons. So obvious, that I expect you to be Shivley or some other dickless fuckbag.
You lost me right there dude. Sure Lincoln's contributions to the nation is great and should be taught and recognize in schools, but what I'm saying is the negatives should also be taught and show how both these sides of Lincoln along with the collection mind set of the leaders and public of the time might of have affected the outcome of society in America today. Respect man, I don't know you bro, and yes we don't agree but I'm not about to go off and called you a "dickless fuckbag". Peace

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Misogynyst Gynecologist
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Old Aug 22, 2008, 09:16 PM #33 of 53
Trying to think of Lincoln a secret darkie lover tries to ignore the fact that he was human and a product of his times. Even John Brown, for all his admirable qualities was nonetheless a murderer. The fact that these people could do so much good despite being so seriously flawed is what I feel makes them great.
I didn't mean to insinuate (though, by my wording, I can see how that is read) that Lincoln liked black people in the way you detail. I meant to say that Lincoln wasn't dumb enough to back that play.

Jam it back in, in the dark.
Bradylama
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Old Aug 22, 2008, 09:38 PM Local time: Aug 22, 2008, 09:38 PM 1 #34 of 53
don't flame me bro

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Namingway
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Old Aug 27, 2008, 10:30 PM #35 of 53
You can go back in time and judge people based on their actions however you are ignorant if you hold them to the same standards as people are held today. Lincoln even back then was more civilized than people in countries across the world. Look at the savage parts of Africa or areas in the middle east.

What Lincoln did for the US was a good thing despite what he thought or felt and for that we should honor him. I'm sure if we found out MLK never received a real doctorate and was given an honorary one or that he plagiarized speeches that he made we would not look down on him due to his actions.



Quick brady delete this because it goes against your hatefull skewed view of the USA

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
Bradylama
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Old Aug 27, 2008, 11:43 PM Local time: Aug 27, 2008, 11:43 PM #36 of 53


I don't want anybody thinking I'm a moderator or anything.

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No. Hard Pass.
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Old Aug 28, 2008, 12:36 AM Local time: Aug 27, 2008, 11:36 PM 2 #37 of 53
I love Abe Lincoln.

My favourite thing he ever did was lead the raisin rebellion in rock opera form.



JFK helped too.



I was speaking idiomatically.


John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD.


Last edited by No. Hard Pass.; Aug 28, 2008 at 02:07 AM.
Bradylama
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Old Aug 28, 2008, 02:20 AM Local time: Aug 28, 2008, 02:20 AM 1 #38 of 53
"They're not gonna crush our freedom!"
-Captain Lavender (Abe Lincoln's Clone)

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
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Old Aug 28, 2008, 03:18 AM Local time: Aug 28, 2008, 02:18 AM #39 of 53
"They're not gonna crush our freedom!"
-Captain Lavender (Abe Lincoln's Clone)
"ABE'S MY SLAVE NAME, SQUARE!"
-Captain Lavender(Abe Lincoln's Clone)

FELIPE NO


John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD.

FranStan
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Old Aug 30, 2008, 08:25 PM #40 of 53
"ABE'S MY SLAVE NAME, SQUARE!"
-Captain Lavender(Abe Lincoln's Clone)
I like how you mock history as if you mean something to somebody enough to just sit in that arm chair of yours and mock away.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?
Bernard Black
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Old Aug 30, 2008, 08:57 PM Local time: Aug 31, 2008, 01:57 AM #41 of 53
I like how you mock history as if you mean something to somebody enough to just sit in that arm chair of yours and mock away.


Not just me, right?

Jam it back in, in the dark.
Bradylama
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Old Aug 30, 2008, 09:06 PM Local time: Aug 30, 2008, 09:06 PM 1 #42 of 53
He just didn't "get" the internet.

There's nowhere I can't reach.
No. Hard Pass.
Salty for Salt's Sake


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Old Aug 30, 2008, 09:22 PM Local time: Aug 30, 2008, 08:22 PM #43 of 53
I don't even sit in an armchair when I type out my Clone High references on the internets.



This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.


John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD.

Bernard Black
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Old Aug 30, 2008, 09:30 PM Local time: Aug 31, 2008, 02:30 AM #44 of 53


Epic fail

You've ruined so many dreams Deni, so many dreams ;__;

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?
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Salty for Salt's Sake


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Old Aug 30, 2008, 09:40 PM Local time: Aug 30, 2008, 08:40 PM #45 of 53
I know. I bring an end to all things wonderful and good and replace them with horrible truth.

I am a ruiner.

I am why we can't have nice things.

How ya doing, buddy?


John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD.

Bernard Black
I don't mean this in a bad way, but genetically you are a cul-de-sac


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Old Aug 30, 2008, 09:43 PM Local time: Aug 31, 2008, 02:43 AM #46 of 53
Obviously we must erect an armchair of epic proportions. From which you can preach the truth. Lucifer might get involved.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
joshuak
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Old Nov 7, 2008, 11:04 PM Local time: Nov 7, 2008, 09:04 PM #47 of 53
I say he was a great president because he was able to steer the country through a time of war that split the nation in two.

FELIPE NO
Bradylama
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Old Nov 7, 2008, 11:10 PM Local time: Nov 7, 2008, 11:10 PM #48 of 53
So anybody notice all the proud Abe Lincoln memorial editorial cartoons after Obama's victory, I'm pretty sure Lincoln would be more stupefied than ecstatic.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?
Old Nov 7, 2008, 11:27 PM #49 of 53
I'm only enamored about Lincoln right now because of how fucking awesome he is in Fallout 3. =)

Jam it back in, in the dark.
FatsDomino
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Misogynyst Gynecologist
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Old Nov 8, 2008, 12:00 AM #50 of 53
I also enjoy using pennies

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