Religion: What it means to you

Well, the Bible says "seek and you will find." So, as long as you have some sort of genuine interest in God, no pride and an open mind, you can't really go wrong.

I was speaking idiomatically.

I have no interest in the current existing religious religions. I've given a few a try, so I'm not just being blatantly stupid about my opinion here. Attended some sermons involving Christianity, gave Buddhism a try, and even thought at one point of my life that I could mix them somehow. But as it seems, I'm too geared to the whole science side of the war. The Science vs Religion war. I just don't have enough personal proof that there is a God. That there are greater beings than I. I look at what Science has to prove, I look at what Religion has to prove. I can only see more logic in Scientific observations than simply hearing someone say, "HE'S IN MY HEART!"

So, if I am to be accused of following a religion, I follow the religion where I am a believer of: Religion stinks, I don't believe in any of them.

Now, I'm not saying that the religions other people follow are bad and wrong. But there just isn't room for people like me who question these faiths and beliefs. Especially to such a degree where you ask someone to prove it to you now.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Religion fascinates me certainly, and there are ways of living your life and following beliefs which seem to work for some people. But it's not for me. It's never really been something I thought I could commit myself to.

FELIPE NO

My religion is a compilation of my own beliefs through life and academic experiences. This religion of mine is constantly growing and updating, it is not fixed. Science is in my religion, democracy and communism are also in my religion.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I'm an Atheist, owner of the website Atheist Resource. (The website with the banner featuring Christian Newton, Einstein and Darwin (they have all made great contributions to science)
I personally have no problem with people believing in God. What really bothers me is organised religion, how it is used, and how religious followers often demean or persecute those who do not believe in a God, or those who do not follow the same religion. Religious teachings have throughout history been used to justify some of the most appalling acts against Humanity. Unfortunatly, these acts are all too often brushed under the carpet so to speak, with claims 'They weren't true (insert religious identity here)'. When really, many of the atrocities committed are done because they 'truly believe it is what scriptures dictate'.
Ironicly, those who often commit these acts are the ones who often claim moral superiority - Kind of wacky really!!
Religion has some very good teachings, and unfortunately many bad teachings. While those not so nice teachings exist, there will always be religious nuts in their masses advocating nuttery!!

No offence to the religious here, I'm talking about the lunes who advocate death to non-believers, gays, abortion doctors, and those who beat so-called Demons out of kids....etc Yep! Religion is a nasty business.



Jam it back in, in the dark.

Well Godless Cod, you have a problem with the fanatacists that take their religion too far in a negative direction.
Many people have been killed in the name of a God, whether it be God, Yahweh, Buddha, etc., but most religions these days have analyzed and apologized for those acts. Before his death, Pope John Paul II apologized for the crusades, as well as many other abominations that weaker men in the past have commited.

As for me, I'm currently involved in joining the Catholic church. It's been a wonderful spiritual journey, coming basically from a loose Christian background with little direction to preparing to be a devout catholic. My wife is Catholic, but that's not the reason I'm doing it. I'm doing it for me, but she helped me realize that it is important and it does make sense.
I had a ton of misconceptions about the church before joining it, mainly due to the media coverage of such topics, which is often horribly skewed and often the exact opposite of what a certain religion is trying to say.
One major one was that the church is outdated and out of touch. They are very much involved with the tough issues today, it just seems that most people aren't willing (or aren't ready) to take responsibility for their actions.
Sex is always a big topic with the Catholic church, being that they're against contraceptives (for good reason if you've ever taken the time to listen to the argument) and pre-marital sex. It's taken a lot of reflection and prayer to come to terms with such grave issues, but I believe I'm ready to take one of the biggest steps in my life. It will be a tough road, because being Catholic today is very difficult. However, if it was not difficult it would not be worth as much, IMO.

I still strongly disagree with religious fanatics like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and most of the evangelicals who believe in religion without responsibility, but I pray for them. The whole concept of prayer was very foreign to me, but throughout the class I have seen its power firsthand, and now strive to learn more about it and how to do its many different versions.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Hi Shadowlink,

Quote:

Well Godless Cod, you have a problem with the fantasists that take their religion too far in a negative direction.

Yes, we all have a problem with these groups. They are often the ones who make the most noise, and get their way, and as soon as that mentality influences politics, things become dangerous.

Quote:

Many people have been killed in the name of a God, whether it be God, Yahweh, Buddha, etc., but most religions these days have analyzed and apologized for those acts. Before his death, Pope John Paul II apologized for the crusades, as well as many other abominations that weaker men in the past have committed.

Yes, at least John Paul had the guts to apologise for some of the atrocities caused because of their policies. I was kind of sad when he died. Weaker men? Not sure what you mean here? Many were following scripture, and the orders issued by the Popes, and other high ranking clergy when committing these atrocities.

Quote:

As for me, I'm currently involved in joining the Catholic Church. It's been a wonderful spiritual journey, coming basically from a loose Christian background with little direction to preparing to be a devout catholic. My wife is Catholic, but that's not the reason I'm doing it. I'm doing it for me, but she helped me realize that it is important and it does make sense.

If it makes you happy, that’s great.

Quote:

I had a ton of misconceptions about the church before joining it, mainly due to the media coverage of such topics, which is often horribly skewed and often the exact opposite of what a certain religion is trying to say.
One major one was that the church is outdated and out of touch. They are very much involved with the tough issues today, it just seems that most people aren't willing (or aren't ready) to take responsibility for their actions.

I had a similar view as yours when I was a Christian. I believed people had misconceptions about religion. But, the more I studied the bible, world history, science, I soon realised religion wasn’t for me. I also realised that the only way Christianity had survived throughout the centuries, was with the use of force, persecution, etc. I could not proudly follow something like that. Soon after, I became an atheist. You’ll soon realise who your churchly friends are then.

Quote:

Sex is always a big topic with the Catholic church, being that they're against contraceptives (for good reason if you've ever taken the time to listen to the argument) and pre-marital sex. It's taken a lot of reflection and prayer to come to terms with such grave issues, but I believe I'm ready to take one of the biggest steps in my life. It will be a tough road, because being Catholic today is very difficult. However, if it was not difficult it would not be worth as much, IMO.

Yes, I know sex has always been an issue with the Church; they used to kill people because of it. Apart from that, contraception is a good thing, it stops many unwanted pregnancies, and with the current population at more than 6billion, it is needed. More children will result in more poverty and starvation. Yes, abstinence is a good thing, but it does not work. It goes against our biological nature. In highly religious societies where abortion and contraception was banned, (Ireland is a fine example) women often had to drag their daughters to shady back street doctors; alternatively they used knitting needles on themselves. Disease is another issue, contraception does protect from many diseases, but there are always risks.

Quote:

I still strongly disagree with religious fanatics like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and most of the evangelicals who believe in religion without responsibility, but I pray for them. The whole concept of prayer was very foreign to me, but throughout the class I have seen its power firsthand, and now strive to learn more about it and how to do its many different versions.

I’m really glad to hear that you are strongly against these people, and I’m really sure that your prayers give you comfort, it’s a shame your prayers can’t alter their attitudes. Perhaps you should take an active stance against them, as I don’t think preying for them will alter the outcome of their actions.


-----------------
"Our earth is degenerate in these latter days. There are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end. Bribery and corruption are common, Children no longer obey their parents. Every man wants to write a book, and the end of the world evidently is approaching." - Assyrian tablet circa 2800 BCE

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Quote:

I also realised that the only way Christianity had survived throughout the centuries, was with the use of force, persecution, etc.

Uh, except the very beginning, right? Where it's surivival was almost, what would you call it? A miracle?

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Yeah Cod, back that statement up.

I was speaking idiomatically.

I under stand christianity has it's dirty hands from the past but that isn't the riligions fault. Like they say, guns don't kill people, pople with guns kill people. Anywho I belive religion is good for you...to an extent. Beliving in god, alah, Jehova what ever you want to call it, theres nothing wrong with that no matter who you are. Telling someone how great your life is because of this religion is also peachy key. But when people force others to belive just because they think it's right, well then that's just hipocritical. The bible itself says that if you're doing something positive then your fine and hurting people is bad. Common sense right? I wish others saw that too.

Simply Practacing a religion gives people faith amung other things. Most christians belive in themselves because we are tought to if we want good things to happen. This may sound stupid but many people who don't want to belive in religion don't have hopes and dreams of the future either. (I'm not saying everyone) Also christians are tought to belive that suicide is an emortal sin. You kill yourself you automaticaly go to hell. Even cerial killers can be forgiven once they see the light. You kill yourself, your dead you can't say sorry. What I am saying is believing in something good even if it's just for the sake of believing, can actualy hold good things for you.(if you belive in good things)

I feel for those who simply believe in something else or don't at all. Many have been killed and torchered etc. It has happened so much so that many even began blaming the teachings of the religion itself. For instance Christian extreem Hopocrits I feel should go to hell. They act as if practacing the word of god yet hurt and kill people just to get everyone to believe. Did Jesus do this? even once? is this what God wanted at all? NO! if they read that book they holed under their hands so dearly like the clame to have, they would know that what they are doing is wrong. So it isn't always the fault of the teachings of the religion but the fools who really have no clew what they are doing.

How ya doing, buddy?

Religion doesn't guide me 100%, but leads me in a direction that I can trust most of the time. I'm loosely Christian.

FELIPE NO

This topic is kind of complicated for me because I have an older sister who doesn't beleive in god, then I have my mother who does but isn't a devout person about it. So I'm kind of weighing my beliefs here. It has gotten me through some tough times sometimes. I'm kind of teetering on the religion scale when it comes to believing or not believing.

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Can you guys beleive I was playing Dead or Alive on xbox live and the room I was in had this same debate. What got me was 80% of the people there were on Gods side...that just warms my heart.

Originally Posted by Mystil

Over the years it has lost it's meaning to me. If God can forgive me in doubting his existence that'd be fine I suppose. Before the doubts were setting in, I loved being a christian very much and when I was younger I would "talk to God". That is how much I was into it.

What made you change your mind?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Hmmm. I guess you could say I''m muslim, but not really a strict one. It's really a shame the way a lot of people misunderstand the religion - the ones who think it inspires and condones the blowing up of buildings and people, but far worse are the ones that call themselves muslim and think that the above is actually correct. But enough of that.

I guess my take on my religion is that it provides me with a lot of answers that I'd rather assume to be right than have to figure out all by myself - I'd much rather be doing other things. But I'm liberal in the sense that when something comes up that challenges these beliefs, I don't blinker on past them - I think them over and trust myself enough to come to conclusions that may or may not align with my religious beliefs and still follow them through.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Godless Cod

Yes, I know sex has always been an issue with the Church; they used to kill people because of it. Apart from that, contraception is a good thing, it stops many unwanted pregnancies,

I'd argue the opposite, and the church obviously does too. Since 1930 unwanted pregnancies have gone up. Because women and men can have sex at any time with contraception with the false idea that it won't result in pregnancy leads to 'mistakes' (they should be welcomed surprises) when the contraceptive fails. This in turn leads to poverty, which has also gone up, and more misguided forms of sex, along with pornography. Abstinance is very hard to live and that is why it is viewed as impossible by the secular community at large. It's not for everybody, but Natural Family Planning (the idea that a woman is naturally infertile for several days during each month) is a more responsible way to avoid preganancy, while still being open to children if God wills it. This has been difficult for me because I was brought up with pornography and masturbation being 'perfectly normal' things, but are very harmful in the long run. Still, NFP is an amazing thing for married couples because it lets the woman know more about her body and cycles (man is the rhythm method totally flawed and outdated), and the sex is AMAZING! Heh.

Originally Posted by Godless Cod

and with the current population at more than 6billion, it is needed. More children will result in more poverty and starvation. Yes, abstinence is a good thing, but it does not work. It goes against our biological nature. In highly religious societies where abortion and contraception was banned, (Ireland is a fine example) women often had to drag their daughters to shady back street doctors; alternatively they used knitting needles on themselves. Disease is another issue, contraception does protect from many diseases, but there are always risks.

As for the population, there is overcrowding in areas, but contraceptives will not solve this problem. Ignorance is the true problem here. If we educate the people of third world countries (not even necessarily within the church), then less pregnancies as a result of rape may occur because some cultures believe that raping virgins is the way to get rid of the AIDS epidemic.
About Ireland, I believe you missed the point? Were you talking about women having to get abortions? That's a whole other issue I won't get into unless it's brought up. At any rate, something as grave a matter as this can never be forced on a society. Even though I use NFP, if it was forced upon me I would have never even thought twice about it. It is a personal decision with a lot of sacrifice involved. The disease issue was covered in my education argument, as most places where AIDS and other diseases are sexually transmitted diseases are at epidemic levels have no idea how these diseases are transmitted.
Of course, there are also exceptions to every rule within the church. In dire situation where a mother is diagnosed that she would die if she had a child, for the safety of the mother it may be okay (depending on the diocese) to use contraceptives or have surgery.
With all this, I'm no expert, but I felt I had to say something against your arguments because I would have said the same things about two years ago, and have since been convinced to the contrary. I imagine that you have alreay fought your battle and are comfortable with where you stand, and good for you for that.

Originally Posted by Godless Cod

I’m really glad to hear that you are strongly against these people, and I’m really sure that your prayers give you comfort, it’s a shame your prayers can’t alter their attitudes. Perhaps you should take an active stance against them, as I don’t think preying for them will alter the outcome of their actions.

I've sent MANY a letter to these gentlemen voiving my discontent to their misguided and intrinsically moronic views toward God.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

t(-_-t)

Quote:

Yeah Cod, back that statement up.

Listed are only events that solely occurred on command of church authorities or were committed in the name of Christianity. (List incomplete)
Ancient Pagans

* As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
* Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
* Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
* Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
* Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
* Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
* In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
* In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
* The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
[DO19-25]

Mission

* Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]
* Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
* Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered. [DO235]
* 15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Victims unknown. [DO30]
* 16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]

Crusades (1095-1291)

* First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]
* Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousands. [WW23]
* 9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]
* Until Jan 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]
* after 6/3/98 Antiochia (then turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women & children) killed. [WW32-35]
Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents - save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]
* Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]
* Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (jewish, muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
(In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude")
* The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]
* Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". One million victims of the first crusade alone. [WW41]
* Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]
* Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]
* Rest of Crusades in less detail: until the fall of Akkon 1291 probably 20 million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas alone). [WW224]

Note: All figures according to contemporary (Christian) chroniclers.

Heretics

* Already in 385 C.E. the first Christians, the Spanish Priscillianus and six followers, were beheaded for heresy in Trier/Germany [DO26]
* Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between 372 C.E. and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]
* Albigensians: the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians. [DO29]
The Albigensians (cathars = Christians allegedly that have all rarely sucked) viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of birth control. [NC]
Begin of violence: on command of pope Innocent III (greatest single pre-nazi mass murderer) in 1209. Beziérs (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Victims (including Catholics refusing to turn over their heretic neighbours and friends) 20,000-70,000. [WW179-181]
* Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands slain. Other cities followed. [WW181]
* subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated. [WW183]
* After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the stake 1324. [WW183]
* Estimated one million victims (cathar heresy alone), [WW183]
* Other heresies: Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and many others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some Waldensians live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of persecution) I estimate at least hundred thousand victims (including the Spanish inquisition but excluding victims in the New World).
* Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada alone allegedly responsible for 10,220 burnings. [DO28]
* John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was burned at the stake in 1415. [LI475-522]
* University professor B.Hubmaier burned at the stake 1538 in Vienna. [DO59]
* Giordano Bruno, Dominican monk, after having been incarcerated for seven years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo dei Fiori (Rome) on 2/17/1600.

Witches

* from the beginning of Christianity to 1484 probably more than several thousand.
* in the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged. [WV]
* incomplete list of documented cases:
The Burning of Witches - A Chronicle of the Burning Times

Religious Wars

* 15th century: Crusades against Hussites, thousands slain. [DO30]
* 1538 pope Paul III declared Crusade against apostate England and all English as slaves of Church (fortunately had not power to go into action). [DO31]
* 1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands. Thousands were actually slain. [DO31]
* 1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]
* 17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader. After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his body, "cutting off his head, his hands, and his genitals... and then dumped him into the river [...but] then, deciding that it was not worthy of being food for the fish, they hauled it out again [... and] dragged what was left ... to the gallows of Montfaulcon, 'to be meat and carrion for maggots and crows'." [SH191]
* 17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers." [SH191]
* 17th century 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]

Jews

* Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by Christians. Number of Jews slain unknown.
* In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450]
* 17. Council of Toledo 694: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]
* The Bishop of Limoges (France) in 1010 had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]
* First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered 1096, maybe 12.000 total. Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ]
* Second Crusade: 1147. Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]
* Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked 1189/90. [DO40]
* Fulda/Germany 1235: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]
* 1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]
* 1290 in Bohemian (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]
* 1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]
* 1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]
* 1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]
* 1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]
* 1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear.
* 1492: In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492. [MM470-476]
* 1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain. [DO43]

(I feel sick ...) this goes on and on, century after century, right into the kilns of Auschwitz.

Native Peoples

* Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.
* Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, "ought to be good servants ... [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion." [SH200]
While Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when they are hungry," and made love "openly whenever they feel like it." [SH204-205]
* On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:

"I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him." [SH66]

* Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony: "justifieinge the undertakeres of the intended Plantation in New England ... to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, ... and to raise a Bulworke against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ." [SH235]
* In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as "for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess." [SH109,238]
* On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead. [SH204]
* The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and spanish raids.
* As one of the culprits wrote: "So many Indians died that they could not be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The stench was very great and pestiferous." [SH69]
* The indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell." [SH70]
* What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:
"The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ... They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles... then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive." [SH72]
Or, on another occasion:
"The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain like brute beasts...Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn to pieces by dogs." [SH83]
* The "island's population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out." Eventually all the island's natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were "forced" to import slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus "the Caribbean's millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century". [SH72-73] "In less than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated." [SH75]
* "And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city of Tenochtitlán [Mexico city] was next." [SH75]
* Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other spanish conquistadors likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida).
* "When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead." [SH95]

Of course no different were the founders of what today is the US of Amerikkka.

*
* Although none of the settlers would have survived winter without native help, they soon set out to expel and exterminate the Indians. Warfare among (north American) Indians was rather harmless, in comparison to European standards, and was meant to avenge insults rather than conquer land. In the words of some of the pilgrim fathers: "Their Warres are farre less bloudy...", so that there usually was "no great slawter of nether side". Indeed, "they might fight seven yeares and not kill seven men." What is more, the Indians usually spared women and children. [SH111]
* In the spring of 1612 some English colonists found life among the (generally friendly and generous) natives attractive enough to leave Jamestown - "being idell ... did runne away unto the Indyans," - to live among them (that probably solved a sex problem).
"Governor Thomas Dale had them hunted down and executed: 'Some he apointed (sic) to be hanged Some burned Some to be broken upon wheles, others to be staked and some shott to deathe'." [SH105] Of course these elegant measures were restricted for fellow englishmen: "This was the treatment for those who wished to act like Indians. For those who had no choice in the matter, because they were the native people of Virginia" methods were different: "when an Indian was accused by an Englishman of stealing a cup and failing to return it, the English response was to attack the natives in force, burning the entire community" down. [SH105]
* On the territory that is now Massachusetts the founding fathers of the colonies were committing genocide, in what has become known as the "Peqout War". The killers were New England Puritan Christians, refugees from persecution in their own home country England.
* When however, a dead colonist was found, apparently killed by Narragansett Indians, the Puritan colonists wanted revenge. Despite the Indian chief's pledge they attacked.
Somehow they seem to have lost the idea of what they were after, because when they were greeted by Pequot Indians (long-time foes of the Narragansetts) the troops nevertheless made war on the Pequots and burned their villages.
The puritan commander-in-charge John Mason after one massacre wrote: "And indeed such a dreadful Terror did the Almighty let fall upon their Spirits, that they would fly from us and run into the very Flames, where many of them perished ... God was above them, who laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his People to Scorn, making them as a fiery Oven ... Thus did the Lord judge among the Heathen, filling the Place with dead Bodies": men, women, children. [SH113-114]
* So "the Lord was pleased to smite our Enemies in the hinder Parts, and to give us their land for an inheritance". [SH111].
* Because of his readers' assumed knowledge of Deuteronomy, there was no need for Mason to quote the words that immediately follow:
"Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou shalt utterly destroy them..." (Deut 20)
* Mason's comrade Underhill recalled how "great and doleful was the bloody sight to the view of the young soldiers" yet reassured his readers that "sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents". [SH114]
* Other Indians were killed in successful plots of poisoning. The colonists even had dogs especially trained to kill Indians and to devour children from their mothers breasts, in the colonists' own words: "blood Hounds to draw after them, and Mastives to seaze them." (This was inspired by spanish methods of the time)
In this way they continued until the extermination of the Pequots was near. [SH107-119]
* The surviving handful of Indians "were parceled out to live in servitude. John Endicott and his pastor wrote to the governor asking for 'a share' of the captives, specifically 'a young woman or girle and a boy if you thinke good'." [SH115]
* Other tribes were to follow the same path.
* Comment the Christian exterminators: "God's Will, which will at last give us cause to say: How Great is His Goodness! and How Great is his Beauty!"
"Thus doth the Lord Jesus make them to bow before him, and to lick the Dust!" [TA]
* Like today, lying was OK to Christians then. "Peace treaties were signed with every intention to violate them: when the Indians 'grow secure uppon (sic) the treatie', advised the Council of State in Virginia, 'we shall have the better Advantage both to surprise them, & cutt downe theire Corne'." [SH106]
* In 1624 sixty heavily armed Englishmen cut down 800 defenseless Indian men, women and children. [SH107]
* In a single massacre in "King Philip's War" of 1675 and 1676 some "600 Indians were destroyed. A delighted Cotton Mather, revered pastor of the Second Church in Boston, later referred to the slaughter as a 'barbeque'." [SH115]
* To summarize: Before the arrival of the English, the western Abenaki people in New Hampshire and Vermont had numbered 12,000. Less than half a century later about 250 remained alive - a destruction rate of 98%. The Pocumtuck people had numbered more than 18,000, fifty years later they were down to 920 - 95% destroyed. The Quiripi-Unquachog people had numbered about 30,000, fifty years later they were down to 1500 - 95% destroyed. The Massachusetts people had numbered at least 44,000, fifty years later barely 6000 were alive - 81% destroyed. [SH118] These are only a few examples of the multitude of tribes living before Christian colonists set their foot on the New World. All this was before the smallpox epidemics of 1677 and 1678 had occurred. And the carnage was not over then.
* All the above was only the beginning of the European colonization, it was before the frontier age actually had begun.
* A total of maybe more than 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, as an average two thirds by smallpox and other epidemics, that leaves some 50 million killed directly by violence, bad treatment and slavery.
* In many countries, such as Brazil, and Guatemala, this continues even today.

More Glorious events in US history

*
* Reverend Solomon Stoddard, one of New England's most esteemed religious leaders, in "1703 formally proposed to the Massachusetts Governor that the colonists be given the financial wherewithal to purchase and train large packs of dogs 'to hunt Indians as they do bears'." [SH241]
* Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 11/29/1864. Colonel John Chivington, a former Methodist minister and still elder in the church ("I long to be wading in gore") had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women and children, gunned down despite the chiefs' waving with a white flag: 400-500 killed.
From an eye-witness account: "There were some thirty or forty squaws collected in a hole for protection; they sent out a little girl about six years old with a white flag on a stick; she had not proceeded but a few steps when she was shot and killed. All the squaws in that hole were afterwards killed ..." [SH131]
More gory details.
* By the 1860s, "in Hawai'i the Reverend Rufus Anderson surveyed the carnage that by then had reduced those islands' native population by 90 percent or more, and he declined to see it as tragedy; the expected total die-off of the Hawaiian population was only natural, this missionary said, somewhat equivalent to 'the amputation of diseased members of the body'." [SH244]

20th Century Church Atrocities

* Catholic extermination camps
Surpisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveliç, a practising Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!
In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar - orthodox-Christian serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first). But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi "Sicherheitsdient der SS", watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did nothing to prevent them. [MV]
* Catholic terror in Vietnam
In 1954 Vietnamese freedom fighters - the Viet Minh - had finally defeated the French colonial government in North Vietnam, which by then had been supported by U.S. funds amounting to more than $2 billion. Although the victorious assured religious freedom to all (most non-buddhist Vietnamese were Catholics), due to huge anticommunist propaganda campaigns many Catholics fled to the South. With the help of Catholic lobbies in Washington and Cardinal Spellman, the Vatican's spokesman in U.S. politics, who later on would call the U.S. forces in Vietnam "Soldiers of Christ", a scheme was concocted to prevent democratic elections which could have brought the communist Viet Minh to power in the South as well, and the fanatic Catholic Ngo Dinh Diem was made president of South Vietnam. [MW16ff]
Diem saw to it that U.S. aid, food, technical and general assistance was given to Catholics alone, Buddhist individuals and villages were ignored or had to pay for the food aids which were given to Catholics for free. The only religious denomination to be supported was Roman Catholicism.
The Vietnamese McCarthyism turned even more vicious than its American counterpart. By 1956 Diem promulgated a presidential order which read:
o "Individuals considered dangerous to the national defense and common security may be confined by executive order, to a concentration camp."

Supposedly to fight communism, thousands of buddhist protesters and monks were imprisoned in "detention camps." Out of protest dozens of buddhist teachers - male and female - and monks poured gasoline over themselves and burned themselves. (Note that Buddhists burned themselves: in comparison Christians tend to burn others). Meanwhile some of the prison camps, which in the meantime were filled with Protestant and even Catholic protesters as well, had turned into no-nonsense death camps. It is estimated that during this period of terror (1955-1960) at least 24,000 were wounded - mostly in street riots - 80,000 people were executed, 275,000 had been detained or tortured, and about 500,000 were sent to concentration or detention camps. [MW76-89].
To support this kind of government in the next decade thousands of American GI's lost their life.
* Christianity kills the cat
On July 1, 1976, Anneliese Michel, a 23-year-old student of a teachers college in Germany, died: she starved herself to death. For months she had been haunted by demonic visions and apparitions, and for months two Catholic priests - with explicit approval of the Catholic bishop of Würzburg - additionally pestered and tormented the wretched girl with their exorcist rituals. After her death in Klingenberg hospital - her body was littered with wounds - her parents, both of them fanatical Catholics, were sentenced to six months for not having called for medical help. None of the priests was punished: on the contrary, Miss Michel's grave today is a place of pilgrimage and worship for a number of similarly faithful Catholics (in the seventeenth century Würzburg was notorious for it's extensive witch burnings).
This case is only the tip of an iceberg of such evil superstition and has become known only because of its lethal outcome. [SP80]
* Rwanda Massacres
In 1994 in the small african country of Rwanda in just a few months several hundred thousand civilians were butchered, apparently a conflict of the Hutu and Tutsi ethnic groups.
For quite some time I heard only rumours about Catholic clergy actively involved in the 1994 Rwanda massacres. Odd denials of involvement were printed in Catholic church journals, before even anybody had openly accused members of the church.
Then, 10/10/96, in the newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany - a station not at all critical to Christianity - the following was stated:
o "Anglican as well as Catholic priests and nuns are suspect of having actively participated in murders. Especially the conduct of a certain Catholic priest has been occupying the public mind in Rwanda's capital Kigali for months. He was minister of the church of the Holy Family and allegedly murdered Tutsis in the most brutal manner. He is reported to have accompanied marauding Hutu militia with a gun in his cowl. In fact there has been a bloody slaughter of Tutsis seeking shelter in his parish. Even two years after the massacres many Catholics refuse to set foot on the threshold of their church, because to them the participation of a certain part of the clergy in the slaughter is well established. There is almost no church in Rwanda that has not seen refugees - women, children, old - being brutally butchered facing the crucifix.
According to eyewitnesses clergymen gave away hiding Tutsis and turned them over to the machetes of the Hutu militia.
In connection with these events again and again two Benedictine nuns are mentioned, both of whom have fled into a Belgian monastery in the meantime to avoid prosecution. According to survivors one of them called the Hutu killers and led them to several thousand people who had sought shelter in her monastery. By force the doomed were driven out of the churchyard and were murdered in the presence of the nun right in front of the gate. The other one is also reported to have directly cooperated with the murderers of the Hutu militia. In her case again witnesses report that she watched the slaughtering of people in cold blood and without showing response. She is even accused of having procured some petrol used by the killers to set on fire and burn their victims alive..." [S2]
* As can be seen from these events, to Christianity the Dark Ages never come to an end.

If today Christians talk to me about morality, this is why they make me sick.
References:

[DA]
K.Deschner, Abermals krähte der Hahn, Stuttgart 1962.
[DO]
K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987.
[EC]
P.W.Edbury, Crusade and Settlement, Cardiff Univ. Press 1985.
[EJ]
S.Eidelberg, The Jews and the Crusaders, Madison 1977.
[LI]
H.C.Lea, The Inquisition of the Middle Ages, New York 1961.
[MM]
M.Margolis, A.Marx, A History of the Jewish People.
[MV]
A.Manhattan, The Vatican’s Holocaust, Springfield 1986.
See also V.Dedijer, The Yugoslav Auschwitz and the Vatican, Buffalo NY, 1992.
[NC]
J.T.Noonan, Contraception: A History of its Treatment by the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, Cambridge/Mass., 1992.
[S2]
Newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany, 10/10/96, 12:00.
[SH]
D.Stannard, American Holocaust, Oxford University Press 1992.
[SP]
German news magazine Der Spiegel, no.49, 12/2/1996.
[TA]
A True Account of the Most Considerable Occurrences that have Hapned in the Warre Between the English and the Indians in New England, London 1676.
[TG]
F.Turner, Beyond Geography, New York 1980.
[WW]
H.Wollschläger: Die bewaffneten Wallfahrten gen Jerusalem, Zürich 1973.
(This is in german and what is worse, it is out of print. But it is the best I ever read about crusades and includes a full list of original medieval Christian chroniclers' writings).
[WV]
Estimates on the number of executed witches:

* N.Cohn, Europe's Inner Demons: An Enquiry Inspired by the Great Witch Hunt, Frogmore 1976, 253.
* R.H.Robbins, The Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and Demonology, New York 1959, 180.
* J.B.Russell, Witchcraft in the Middle Ages, Ithaca/NY 1972, 39.
* H.Zwetsloot, Friedrich Spee und die Hexenprozesse, Trier 1954, 56.

Canada
"According to eyewitnesses and official documentation, these crimes are alleged to include murder, torture, rape, involuntary sexual sterilization, forced labour, biological warfare, medical experimentation, land theft, cultural eradication, pedophilia, and the conducting of a prolonged war of extermination against non-Christian aboriginal people.

"These crimes are alleged to have occured for more than a century in the state-sponsored and church-run Indian Residential Schools which legally interned every Indian child across Canada between the years 1890 and 1984. During this period, more than 50,000 children died in these schools, according to the statistics of your own Department of Indian Affairs. Most of the bodies of these dead children have never been located or recovered.

"According to the evidence before us, paid employees and officials of these Indian Residential Schools perpetrated, condoned and concealed every act defined as Genocide by the United Nations Convention on the Prevention of Genocide, which was passed by the United Nations General Assembly in 1948, and ratified by Canada in 1952.

"The same evidence indicates that the highest officials of church and state in Canada knew of these crimes and continually approved them as a matter of policy. As such, your government and the churches in question appear to be responsible for having committed and concealed intentional Genocide, as defined by the United Nations.

"We understand that your government and the churches in question have only acknowledged the physical and sexual attacks on native children in these schools, and have refused to take responsibility for any of the other crimes attested to by eyewitness survivors. In this way, your institutions can be considered to be openly violating international law, and holding yourselves unaccountable for crimes against humanity committed by your employees and accountable officials.

During the 1920s/1930s and after the war, Canada was also intolerant of Jews. Many Clubs and resorts had signs 'No Dogs or Jews Allowed'. Organised groups such as the KKK and the Aryan Nations (Both groups identify themselves as Christian) started to form. During the events leading up to the war, Canada had only allowed 4000 Jews to enter their country.


Croatia
The Pope had private visits to the Croatian leader Ante Pavelic. Catholic Croats went on a rampage of terror slaughtering Serbs, Jews, Gypsies and of course the Communists. Many were forced at gunpoint to convert to Catholicism. Many were also slaughtered after converting. The Vatican never condemned these events.

"Surprisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveliç, a practising Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!
In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar - Orthodox-Christian Serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first). But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi "Sicherheitsdient der SS", watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did nothing to prevent them."
Source: VOC (Contains further references)
Other interesting articles http://www.red-ice.net/specialreport.../ratlines.html
Nazi-Era Victims Demand Army, CIA Release Documents on Vatican - CNN News

Throughout the 19th century and into the 20th, the Catholic Church still incorporated strong anti-Semitic elements, despite increasing attempts to separate anti-Judaism, the opposition to the Jewish religion on religious grounds, and racial anti-Semitism. Pope Pius VII (1800-1823) had the walls of the Jewish Ghetto in Rome rebuilt after the Jews were released by Napoleon, and Jews were restricted to the Ghetto through the end of the papacy of Pope Pius IX (1846-1878), the last Pope to rule Rome. Additionally, official organizations such as the Jesuits banned candidates "who are descended from the Jewish race unless it is clear that their father, grandfather, and great-grandfather have belonged to the Catholic Church" until 1946. (Wiki)

The Pear - a sick device used to torture heretics, blasphemers, women, and homosexuals. It was inserted into vagina, rectum, or the mouth. The screw mechanism was turned until fully expanded. The sharp points were designed to cause much internal damage resulting in death.

That should be enough for now.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Anyone can do a cut and paste job. If we both go to websites and copy our arguments, that's not much of a debate is it?

Why don't you paraphrase that. There is such a thing as spam in the form of excess, you know?

Besides, you still failed to mention anything about Christianity's early beginning. Explain how the religion (which was presecuted by nearly everyone) managed to spread violently. If you can explain how it spread at all, despite harsh opposition, that would be cool too.

Most amazing jew boots

Hi Shadowlink,
I'm just about in total agreement with you regarding the sex issues. People do need to be educated, and our cultures need to stop promoting sex in the way it does. Peoples attitudes need to change. But, I also believe contraception is still needed within a relationship, or before we know it, extremely large families will exist, just like before the 1930s, ten and twelve kids per family...hehe

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Wow. Those are the most disproportionate replies I have ever seen!
'Back it up' gets 3 screen fulls, while my thought-out rebuttal gets 4 lines, not counting intro.
At any rate, I'm very impressed by your knowledge and your ability to keep a cool head about what you believe. Most forum members (especially here, it seems) will just start flaming ad nauseum without a thought towards a civil debate (if you could even call our little discussion that), or just outrightly disregard you based on your screen name. Heh.
It all comes down to maturity I suppose . . .
Still, this topic would hopefully attract more astute folk than, say, any topic in the sewers!
Besides, Sass pleaded with us, eh?

FELIPE NO

I'm don't realy believe in God. There's no logical poof. Like Joesph said he found the plates location in a vision. But if you say the same story over and over people start to believe you. Also the fact there's a ton of different religions and beliefs doesn't change my mind the least.
But if you guys believe in something then you should stay with it.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Minion
Yes, I pasted from my website, I was asked to back up my statement:
"I also realised that the only way Christianity had survived throughout the centuries, was with the use of force, persecution, etc." I did.

I did not come to this forum to debate history, I came to give my views as to why I do not follow religion and what religion means to me.

Actually if you studied history a little, you would know that the Romans were not that intolerant towards various religions. Perhaps the Christians yes, because they were often viewed as trouble causers and idiots. Do some research on vulgar latin 'Cretinism'. Yes, Christians were persecuted, I never said they weren't!
As soon as Constantine had Licinius executed, all that changed. I have posted the relevent information to show that.

I have nothing against God believers who follow religion, especially when they follow religion in a positive way. But as soon as people start to defend its violent history and ignore present day problems caused because of religious and superstitious beliefs, then I have no respect for these people. To me, defending and making excuses for their actions and passing the buck 'they weren't true Christians/Muslims etc, does not solve the problem. It is no different than defending and making excuses for the Nazis. Would you defend Nazism?
If more religious folk took an active stance against fundamentalism, I'm sure that would be a positive thing for all groups concerned.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Quote:

It is no different than defending and making excuses for the Nazis.

Sure, but the way most nonbelievers view religious folk is akin to blaming all of Germany for the Nazis. Just because a group of people go nuts, that doesn't give them license to taint the name of the religion they are supposedly following. I don't see how anyone who has read the Bible could explain, with scripture, how Jesus would have condoned the Crusades, the Inquisition, etc.. That is why we have the Othrodox and Protestant Churches. That's why we have nondenominational Christians (like me) who don't affiliate themselves with any chruch.

Another thing is that to understand history, you have to understand the cultural context of what you're reading. At the time of the Crusades, people were brutual. With or without Christianity, that sort of thing would be going on regradless. There are examples of empirialism well into the 20th century.

You wouldn't blame a modern American for slavery, would you? Even though at one time, all Americans, a group who strongly believed that "all men were created equal" had slaves and accepted the practice. People can claim to follow an ideal and be way off. Is that the ideal's fault? Is "all men are created equal" really that hard to grasp?

I'm not, and I don't think any Christian should ever try to justify the Crusades or anything like it. That doesn't mean that we're responsible though. Nor does it mean that the man who preached "love thy neighbor" is responsible.



You're still not explaining how it was possible for Christianity to spread in the beginning. That's okay, though. It was quite a mystery, and if indeed you've come not to debate but to simply share your views, then I won't trifle you with an argument.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Minion

Uh, except the very beginning, right? Where it's surivival was almost, what would you call it? A miracle?

Something to control people.

Fear and religion. Two most powerful populus controllers.

1.) You scare the ever-living shit out of people with fear of something
2.) If that doesn't work, use a superior power which the powerful appeal to. Ever hear of "Mandate from God?" Yea. Thats bullshit and you know it.

I like how this thread turned right back into the religious debate though.

How ya doing, buddy?

Minion,
But you also have to remember, people back then followed the Bible more literally, they used both the OT and NT to justify their actions, both good and bad. Slavery was condoned throughout the Bible, its followers noted that slavery was not against God. The Church even had an active activity in the selling and buying of slaves. The Church of england has only recently appologised for this.
More often than not, it has been those who faught against theocratic dictatorship and the abolishment of harsh Biblical law, that has created the many freedoms we have today. If this had not happened, our societies would be no different than the current theocratic Islamic dictatorships. Of course, if Jesus did actually exist, and what he supposedly said is true "love thy neighbor" (which is a good thing) means little, especially when his literal followers had teachings such as 'John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil' (refering to the Jews) and teachings such as '1 Timothy 6:1-2 Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.'

John 8:44 was used to induce a sense of hatred against Jews, and many had the view that slavery was ok, because the Bible said so.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

See, this is another example of not understanding context.

Slavery as it's mentioned there is not the slavery we know as 21st century Americans. Slavery is really a bad word to use as a translation. Bad translations are common, especially in the KJV and other really old bibles.

Anyway, the "slavery" that Paul et. al. talk about is really more like indentured servitiude. The "slaves" were people who had a debt to work off, mostly. Some of them were prisoners of war. None of them were innocent natives kidnapped for slavery. They also had rights, unlike the slaves we knew. Some slaves were promiment members of the community, holding positions that are the equivalent of a college professor today. The only difference between a slave and a regular citizen was that the slaved owed some kind of debt. Were some slaves treated badly? Sure. But that's not unlike people today having their thumbs cut off by a loan shark or something like that.

The point is, you need to understand the context. If you don't, then sure, you can read anything you want into any ancient writing. And you're right, it is a literal interpretation of badly trasnlated literature that lead to many misunderstandings and tragedies. There was a time when people weren't even allowed to read the Bible - the clergy had to tell them what it said. This is certainly not the kind of exclusivity Jesus had in mind.

And don't judge a religion by it's followers. That should be common sense. Just as the typical American is not a great representative of American ideals, so too is the typcial Christian not a great representative of Christ.

How ya doing, buddy?