[Multiplatform] Bioshock. Available on Wii 12/5/2010

2K has already commented that they are going to deactivate the DRM once the game's popularity calms down. It was just for immediate protection.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Just beat the game on hard, and by time you're past Neptune's Bounty the game is practically as easy as it is on easy. You just get all hack/wrench/shock upgrades and fly through the game with little challenge. Easily worth the couple playthroughs, but I hope Bioshock 2's weapon/plasmid balance is thought out a little bit better.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Yeah, I'm in the Farmers Market now and I've noticed how it's joke mode again. It starts a bit rougher, but by the time you get the shotgun and first wrench tonic it's back to being trivial. A shame.

I was speaking idiomatically.

The amount of people who have already finished this is shocking. =O
Anyways, Is the box smelly? People all over forums has been saying this.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I think the box smells nice.

Anyway, yeah there are shock/wrench balance issues, but for me it's not a problem because that's not how I want to play. With all the plasmids and weapons available, being a shock/wrench jockey just seems...boring, I guess. It's much more fun to come up with creative ways to kill enemies- and because I choose to use the variety of plasmids, the game is significantly more challenging.

But I'm not really playing for the challenge anyway, just to have fun =D

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by 2401 Penitent Tangent

I fucking love the fear mongering going on. A company tried to protect it's intellectual property, albeit with some extremely poorly thought out DRM, it pops a false positive on RootkitRevealer, and everyone who thinks they know what they're talking about starts screaming bloody murder. This isn't Malware, alright? Jesus.

Yes, the PC install limit sucks, but there's not a lot we can do about it. (Yet, at least. I don't think there's been a work around yet.)

So, you think it's acceptable if companies install software on your computer without telling you? Or that they'll limit the amount you can use a game you bought legitimately? If you ask me, it's pretty alarming, and absolutely justifies the sort of response it's getting. Your attitude is exactly the reason why companies like 2K Games think they can do this sort of thing.

There's simply no way they can justify putting this kind of DRM in with the game; if I'd pirated the software, I wouldn't have to put up with any of it, and would arguably be far better off. The very fact that Securom is included with the demo tells you how much they've thought this through.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I never said the DRM was well implemented. It is, however, extremely alarmist and flat out incorrect to state that it's a rootkit, and to panic over something that's not harmful in intent.

Is it annoying? Sure. Anti-consumer? Yeah, I'll give you that. Malicious? Hardly.

What I find retarded is people who are panicking over this issue, citing it as a dangerous rootkit and making it out that SecuROM is some god damn evil piece of software out to compromise your system.

I never once said I agreed with the way that the DRM was implemented, but to expect that there wouldn't be any is foolish in this day and age. Limiting the amount of times the thing can be installed is aggravating, sure. The limit now being 5 should handle most legitimate cases. That's certainly better than 2. This isn't the Sony BMG fiasco or even Starforce, so stop flipping the fuck out.

Try reading before accusing people of what they do and do not support. You look like an imbecile.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

At the moment, I'm more worried about the crashes and ugly, ugly sound bugs that have been popping up more and more since I first started playing. On two separate occasions I had to do a hard reboot by hitting the reset button, as well as a few CTD, and bugs involving the use of surround. At least, I think it's related to the surround, since it seems to pop up when there's explosions going on around me.

At any rate, here's a particularly insightful post from slashdot. Basically what he says is that you're paying a company $50 so that they can create critical flaws in your system. 2k may not be using it for nefarious purposes, but that doesn't mean somebody else won't try to.

In that light, I am going to be removing the SecuROM shit, no matter how much of a pain it might be.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Skexis

At any rate, here's a particularly insightful post from slashdot.

Again, this man's assumptions are based on the the fact that this is a rootkit that creates a potentially harmful security breach.

Considering how the only sources of information on this are basically 2K saying "It's not a rootkit", and a piece of software that's description is "lists Registry and file system API discrepancies that may indicate the presence of a user-mode or kernel-mode rootkit" Sauce, I'm willing to give the company the benefit of the doubt right now. Especially considering RR gives false positives all the damn time.

I'll change my stance in half an instant if this turns out to be true, but it's ridiculous to be going crazy over it right now, that's all.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by 2401 Penitent Tangent

I never said the DRM was well implemented. It is, however, extremely alarmist and flat out incorrect to state that it's a rootkit, and to panic over something that's not harmful in intent.

...etc

Whether you're referring to me or not, I'll make things clear: I'm not panicking and I'm not stating that Securom is a rootkit. However, I am extremely annoyed that no information was given that Securom was being installed, or what it would do to my computer. Also, had I bought the game, there would have been no prior warning that there is a limitation on the amount I could install the software. I don't particularly care that they'll allow me to install it 5 rather than 2 times.

I haven't gotten to the bottom of it yet, but from what I've found so far, Securom prevents you from using Bioshock with certain programs, and potentially introduces security vulnerabilities. The fact that such software was installed without my knowledge or permission is what makes this unacceptable, no matter how little harm it causes.

While you didn't outright state it, and whether you meant it or not, you certainly implied that people should be ok with Securom's installation, and saying that I should have thought otherwise is nonsense. Your final comment was simply ridiculous; I think people can decide for themselves whether this makes me "look like an imbecile" or not.

Thinking about it, perhaps 2K's decision to include Securom with Bioshock was not "malicious", nor is the software itself, but this makes it no less alarming and no less cause for concern. It would probably be better described as selfish and short-sighted, which still doesn't paint a better picture. My points still stand, and I definitely won't be buying this game in its current state.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

No, I'm saying you putting words into my mouth makes you look like a moron. Your stance on being against intrusive DRM and problematic software is something I support.

I do not, however, believe that SecuROM is problematic in the way most people are accusing it of being. I am not concerned that it contains a major security breach, this is true. Unless proven otherwise, of course. If 2K is purposely covering their shit up, or something, then yeah. In which case I'll sing a different tune. I do not like the notion of limiting your rights as a consumer at all, but this discussion isn't about the support of DRM. Hell, I'm vehemently against it. It's about accusations that SecuROM is potentially a hazard.

Have you or anyone else read a copy of the EULA? Does it mention SecuROM? As an owner of the console version, I do not have the same agreement. If it does not, then yes, they are in violation of their own agreement and there's a legitimate beef there. If you click "YES I AGREE" without reading that shit, and it's in there, you damn well better believe I think people should be ok with it. That's what pressing that button means, y'know.

I do not find a piece of DRM that limits your consumer rights to be alarming anymore. Maybe if this was half a decade ago, sure. But right now it's par for the course. Perhaps it's my lack of surprise that makes it seem like I'm ok with the whole concept. I am not. I am simply finding it ridiculous that most people assume this is something far more maligned than it actually is.

Your initial response to my comment about people reacting retardedly was perhaps misconstrued as being directed at you, and not at people like Blades who automatically stated that it was a rootkit, or at the general posting populace on this topic at the 2K forums and at the other sites on this here internet.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Fair enough, that we agree that while the intent of Securom isn't to be harmful, the way it's been implemented is still ultimately harmful to the user (however small or great this harm might turn out to be) and just isn't acceptable.

I think this is extremely alarming, even if you might not, and definitely enough to prevent me from buying the game and actively warn others about it. Fortunately I didn't pay for the game, but I downloaded the demo, and it's plain fact that at no point does it inform the user of software being installed other than the game itself. I've been over the EULA and Readme, and I can confirm that there is no mention of Securom, and no mention of a limitation on the number of times you can install the game. I can't personally confirm whether this is also true on the full version, but from what I can find on forums it's the same case.

For anyone curious, here's a link to a post on the 2K Games forums with a lawyer's take on it: http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6615

Also, an interesting anecdote: on Friday (and again yesterday), in response to concerns about the DRM software, a 2K Games employee stated that "Securom is not on the demo at all", which is obviously incorrect. This was information passed on directly from 2K Games technical staff, so either they were lying or genuinely misinformed. Either way, you can understand why a lot of people would be upset at this.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

the joy to have the game on steam XD anyway even if I would have bought the hard copy I really don't think is that alarming like most people are saying about everywhere on the web... people believe really too quickly thing that are said on the web. They should research a little more before overreacting...

FELIPE NO

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by that thread

YOUR USE OF THIS SOFTWARE IS SUBJECT TO THIS LIMITED SOFTWARE WARRANTY AND LICENSE AGREEMENT (THE “AGREEMENT”) AND THE TERMS SET FORTH BELOW. THE “SOFTWARE” INCLUDES ALL SOFTWARE INCLUDED WITH THIS AGREEMENT, THE ACCOMPANYING MANUAL (S), PACKAGING AND OTHER WRITTEN, SOFTWARE, FILES, ELECTRONIC OR ON-LINE MATERIALS OR DOCUMENTATION, AND ANY AND ALL COPIES OF SUCH SOFTWARE AND ITS MATERIALS. BY OPENING THE SOFTWARE, INSTALLING,AND/OR USING THE SOFTWARE AND ANY OTHER MATERIALS INCLUDED WITH THE SOFTWARE, YOU HEREBY ACCEPT THE
TERMS OF THIS LICENSE WITH TAKE-TWO INTERACTIVE SOFTWARE, INC.
LICENSE.

Subject to this Agreement and its terms and conditions, LICENSOR hereby grants you the nonexclusive, non-transferable, limited right and license to use one copy of the Software for your personal use on a single console. The Software is being licensed to you and you hereby acknowledge that no title or ownership in the Software is being transferred or assigned and this Agreement should not be construed as a sale of any rights in the Software. All rights not specifically granted under this Agreement are reserved by LICENSOR and, as applicable, its licensors. OWNERSHIP. LICENSOR retains all right, title and interest to this Software, including, but not limited to, all
copyrights, trademarks, trade secrets, trade names, proprietary rights, patents, titles, computer codes, audiovisual effects, themes, characters, character names, stories, dialog, settings, artwork, sounds effects, musical
works, and moral rights. The Software is protected by United States copyright law and applicable copyright laws and treaties throughout the world.

The Software may not be copied, reproduced or distributed in
any manner or medium, in whole or in part, without prior written consent from LICENSOR. Any persons copying, reproducing or distributing all or any portion of the Software in any manner or medium, will be willfully
violating the copyright laws and may be subject to civil and criminal penalties. Be advised that Copyright violations are subject to penalties of up to $100,000 per violation. The Software contains certain licensed materials
and LICENSOR’s licensors may protect their rights in the event of any violation of this Agreement.

LICENSE CONDITIONS
You agree not to:
(a) Commercially exploit the Software;
(b) Distribute, lease, license, sell, rent or otherwise transfer or assign this Software, or any copies of this
Software, without the express prior written consent of LICENSOR;
(c) Make copies of the Software or any part thereof;
(d) Except as otherwise specifically provided by the Software or this Agreement, use or install the Software
(or permit others to do same) on a network, for on-line use, or on more than one console at the same
time;
(e) Copy the Software onto a hard drive or other storage device and must run the Software from the included
CD-ROM or DVD-ROM (although the Software may automatically copy a portion of itself onto your
console during installation in order to run more efficiently);
(f) use or copy the Software at a computer gaming center or any other location-based site; provided, that
LICENSOR may offer you a separate site license agreement to make the Software available for commercial
use;.
(g) Reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble or otherwise modify the Software, in whole or in part;
(h) Remove or modify any proprietary notices or labels contained on or within the Software; and
(i) transport, export or re-export (directly or indirectly) into any country forbidden to receive such Software 34 by any U.S. export laws or accompanying regulations or otherwise violate such laws or regulations, that
may be amended from time to time.

LIMITED WARRANTY: LICENSOR warrants to you (if you are the initial and original purchaser of the Software)
that the original storage medium holding the Software is free from defects in material and workmanship under normal use and service for 90 days from the date of purchase. If for any reason you find a defect in the storage medium during the warranty period, LICENSOR agrees to replace, free of charge, any Software discovered to be defective within the warranty period as long as the Software is currently being manufactured by LICENSOR.

If the Software is no longer available, LICENSOR retains the right to substitute a similar program of equal or greater value. This warranty is limited to the storage medium containing the Software as originally provided by LICENSOR and is not applicable to normal wear and tear. This warranty shall not be applicable and shall be void if the defect has arisen through abuse, mistreatment, or neglect. Any implied warranties prescribed by statute are expressly limited to the 90-day period described above.

If that's the EULA, which for the moment I will assume it is, is from that linked thread.

While it doesn't say anything specific about the amount of times one can install it, or even mention Securom by name, it does make several passing mentions to more than just the game being installed.

"THE “SOFTWARE” INCLUDES ALL SOFTWARE INCLUDED WITH THIS AGREEMENT", and such lines, for example. Although incredibly vague, this could easily be meant to cover a wide variety of general bullshit such as the DRM in place here. It may not mention it by name, but upon closer inspection, it sure seems to imply it. And things like part (d) do imply that you will be somewhat limited to the amount of times one uses the thing, although it doesn't outright say how many times.

Perhaps the best thing we can mutually hope for in the future is clearer EULAs that are more explicit about the type of DRM and associated software installs they employ. That seems highly unlikely, though.

Maybe I'm seeing things here that other people aren't though. This EULA seems to cover the all the bases, albeit in a fairly roundabout way.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

The Steam version uses SecuROM too. It only disables the disk check.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by 2401 Penitent Tangent

If that's the EULA, which for the moment I will assume it is, is from that linked thread.

...etc

ok, I don't think you've understood this as I have, in fact I'm not completely sure what you're getting at, so I'll try and clarify:

The issue with the EULA is that it makes no mention of preventing the user from using the software a certain number of times. If the licensor prevents the end user from using the software for any reasons other than those stated in the EULA, then they're in violation of the agreement and you ought to be able to return your copy.

Saying that they've covered all their bases by mentioning "...and the materials contained therein and related thereto" is moot as far as I'm concerned. I don't think anyone's arguing over the legality of the software installing Securom without letting the user know, in fact I'm not even sure about the legality of that aspect myself.

The issue is that it's unreasonable and unacceptable for companies to think that they can do whatever they want on peoples' computers without telling them, from a moral and practical standpoint. I don't care how little or how much harm it does, or reasons they might have for doing it. It makes me angry, and it makes a lot of other people angry from what I've heard. This is why I'm trying to inform as many people as possible, and why I refuse to buy this game.

Also, sorry to tell you, but yes - the Steam version has also been confirmed to have Securom on it. Otherwise I would have bought it off Steam! I know it makes no sense, but none of it does really.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Jimlad

The very fact that Securom is included with the demo tells you how much they've thought this through.

Did you even think WHY they'd do that? It has happened before that the EXE/DLL of the demo is unprotected and is the solution to cracking the retail EXE/DLL. It's quite normal they protect their demo, just like the real game, so people can't use it to crack the real deal. And I think it's legitimate to protect your game. Blame Securom, but not 2K Games.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Well all right, if that's the reason - but why would you expect me to know that? I don't know the first thing about cracking.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Irony stems from that, Jimlad, especially if you pirate the game. They then have more reason to install the software and if people bought the games in the first place, there would be no issue. Microsoft has done this for ages with their Operating Systems and people continue to use Windows.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...09537384528624

The video is about how privacy is dead. Securom is nothing compared to most of what's out there. The company is simply trying to make sure they're earning their money for their product.

And Jimlad, you might not know how to crack it, but someone else does. And they know how to share. And you know how to share. And the people that get it know how to share it with others who share....

I was speaking idiomatically.

Well, the issue as I've seen it is that a lot of people are saying that securom is being installed against the terms of the EULA, and that seems to be a moot complaint simply from the way the EULA is worded. It would be possible for 2k to form an argument from how it's written.

I haven't touched the actual issue of the limited number of installs since that debacle is somewhat separate of my initial issue with the complaints people have rendered against the install of securom itself. It seems that the blanket statements inside the EULA might actually cover these installations, is all I'm saying. So the "they did it without me consenting" argument might not fly simply due to the ambiguous nature of the wording of the thing.

As for them telling the user what they can and can not do with the software without them letting them know, I fully agree with your point. I am simply commenting on the general "I didn't agree to installing securom, it's not in the EULA" that seems to be floating around.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

For someone bitching so much about the EULA, I bet a fat stack of Ace Combat 6 posters that at least 99.9% of you didn't read the whole thing before installing. You just scrolled down, said "I agree," and played the game.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by 2401 Penitent Tangent

Well, the issue as I've seen it is that a lot of people are saying that securom is being installed against the terms of the EULA, and that seems to be a moot complaint simply from the way the EULA is worded. It would be possible for 2k to form an argument from how it's written.

...etc

I dunno, I haven't found people complaining specifically about the legality of the stealthy Securom installation and the EULA, but even so... it's perfectly reasonable to be upset about it, and people need to be warned about it. The fact of the matter is that, at no point in the Bioshock installation does it say anything about Securom, DRM software, limited installations etc. and that's what matters.

If I was to say to someone "I warn you, anything could happen" and then stab them, it doesn't make it any less reasonable for them to be upset about it. The vagueness of the EULA might or might not cover their backs in a courtroom, I don't know, but it certainly doesn't excuse their actions, and it's ridiculous to say that people can't complain "because they were covered by their vague wording". You might be right if I was talking purely in legal terms, but I don't see how that's an issue unless someone's planning to take 2K games to court.

What I'm saying is that if they were going to install additional software on my machine, especially software of Securom's debatable nature, they should let me know so at least I have a choice. The fact that I even have to defend this point astonishes me. That there are people out there who are so jaded that they're willing to accept this so easily is saddening. At least allow others to be properly informed about what's going on and what their choices are, and that's the most important issue.

Another point I'd like to make is that I still have yet to see evidence that DRM software "improves sales" or "protects products" as they claim to. From what I've seen, pirates will pirate it if they want to, and legitimate users either lose out because of faulty DRM, or have to turn to piracy to use the product. In what way does this help anyone except the DRM software developers?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Just tell me what's faulty about the DRM that BioShock uses, then?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

So the root of the whole problem is "They weren't specific enough." It would have saved this thread a lot of headache if you said that first.

From now on, let's have every publisher explain exactly how they plan on protecting their software to the smallest detail. Then everyone'll be happy, right?

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Grawl

Just tell me what's faulty about the DRM that BioShock uses, then?

I'll be patient, and tell you you're missing the point. Please read my other posts.

Originally Posted by 2401 Penitent Tangent

So the root of the whole problem is "They weren't specific enough." It would have saved this thread a lot of headache if you said that first.

From now on, let's have every publisher explain exactly how they plan on protecting their software to the smallest detail. Then everyone'll be happy, right?

There's no need to be facetious. I'm dismayed that anyone could be so opposed to such a reasonable point as "I don't want my computer messed with". What's wrong with you people?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.