The Immigration Protests

While I'm of the belief that everything that you just said is nothing more than the rantings of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about, I couldn't let this statement pass:

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And wether or not u like it this country was founded on Illegal Immigration

How was the United States founded on illegal immigration? Anyone who answers this needs to think over their answer very carefully or else look like a damned idiot.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Well, the Pilgrims, when they landed and founded Plymouth Colony, they did so without a valid charter, duly authorized by all the proper authorities, which made them illegal immigrants, if you want to argue it that way. Their colony was effectively there for the taking if anyone with a legitimate colonial charter wanted to annex it, which Massachusetts Bay Colony did in the mid 18th century.

The founding of Plymouth Colony, while full of intersting historical tidbits, doesn't equate to the founding of the United States, however.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Thats ok its your opinion Night Phoenix to belive that. But Simply i dont think some old rich men on Capitol Hill have the right to Make Criminals, Felon status criminals at that for people Trying to better their lives. DO You? As i said i have alot of dealings with people who are of illegal status, Are they not Humans - Because they didnt have the privalage of being born HERE? Most i have met are honest and some of my best friends, work very hard, and have to deal with their children hating them for being Wetbacks or Illegals ( who are looked down upon) I had plenty of Friends like this and had this experience first hand growing up in a Strawberry Town in Central Cali. Alot of these peoples Children go on to college and accomplish things - should we strip them of this because thier parents came over a "BORDER" illegally? I only Wish my Parents worked as hard as some of these illegals do for thier children, and thier familys future.

FELIPE NO

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Most Americans will not clean shit for $6. Illegals will. Therefore illegals profit.

That's pretty damned hilarious considering that I had a job making $5.15/hr working at a fast food place. My duty was to clean up nasty shit (grease traps included) and sweat my ass off all day, running around and scrambling to get things done.
Believe me when I say that cutting the fucking grass is ALOT easier than working in a fast food kitchen. Hell, in the summer time, the guy who got to go outside and cut the lawn (since the owner never hired anyone) was the luckiest sonuvabitch of that day.

I wonder...how do they handle construction in northern states like Wisconsin or Minnesota? I highly doubt they have a large population of illegal immigrants up there, but I'm sure they manage just fine. I'm also pretty sure that they have landscaping companies up there that charge the same with American workers as the landscapers in the south with immigrant workers.

I just want to set the record straight though. I have no problem whatsoever with immigrants. My grandparents were immigrants after all. The thing that bothers me, though, is that these border hopping douche bags are coming into this nation and being allowed to stay here without having to be burdened with some little hassle called "citizenship".
I mean, is it really that hard to apply and get a green card?

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But Simply i dont think some old rich men on Capitol Hill have the right to Make Criminals, Felon status criminals at that for people Trying to better their lives. DO You?

Not only do I think they have the right, I think they have the obligation. No matter what justification you can come up with, these people are breaking the law. This makes them criminals. The United States is a nation based on the rule of law and if you willingly let people disregard the law, for whatever reason, then the very foundation of this nation is meaningless.

What is at issue here isn't whether or not these people work hard or the fact that they are Mexican or whatever; the issue at hand is that these people are breaking the laws of the United States. To give these people a pass or amnesty is encouraging others to blatantly disregard the laws of the United States.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

What you people don't understand is that legal immigration is fucking impossible to manage. There are caps of like 30,000 people per year, and the waiting time is approximately 15 or so years.

That's fucking ridiculous. What's the point of following a law an unjust law? When it comes to making the decision: "should I go to the United States illegally, or starve?"

In the face of starvation laws are of little importance.

Furthermore, these people are not breaking laws of the United States of America right NOW. If they are employed, their employers are. They may have broken American laws in the past by illegally trespassing the borders, but that is not relevant.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by gukarma

They may have broken American laws in the past by illegally trespassing the borders, but that is not relevant.

I fail to see why illegal immigrants breaking the laws of the United States by entering the country illegally is not relavent.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I cee your point Night Phoenix , about breaking the laws, of the United States, Just that i think instead of focusing on criminalizing people who wish to come here , it should be made easier for people to come and work here and provide for thier families, and educate thier children, im not saying give them full citezenship but i cee nothing wrong with someone wanting to come work - NOW on the other hand i do see stuff wrong with MS13 and 18th STreet Gang members coming over and commiting crimes, and making life uneasy - I have had to deal with these MS13 members when i was younger(there is quite a few here in the DC metro Area), Luckly unless your affiliated with other gangs they usually leave u alone - but they are a problem none the less, I recall my Friend who was Puerto Rican From New York Actually had to leave school and be sent back to NEW York because there was rumors they would kill him if he went back to school, so the principal told him he would have to leave, and his
sis decided to send him back to new york.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by gukarma

What you people don't understand is that legal immigration is fucking impossible to manage. There are caps of like 30,000 people per year, and the waiting time is approximately 15 or so years.

That's fucking ridiculous. What's the point of following a law an unjust law? When it comes to making the decision: "should I go to the United States illegally, or starve?"

In the face of starvation laws are of little importance.

Furthermore, these people are not breaking laws of the United States of America right NOW. If they are employed, their employers are. They may have broken American laws in the past by illegally trespassing the borders, but that is not relevant.

That is one of the most blatently false statements that I have heard/read in a while. My family is from Burkina Faso, and we immigrated to the US legally (as permanent residents with green cards) in 2000. This year we applied for citizenship. The waiting line is not 15 years as you seem to state with authority. We applied for and recieved our citizenship within the year. To state that illegal immigration is justified because of the backlog in the system is not only factually wrong, it breaks every legal tradition that the US has been following since its inception, namely the rule of law. You don't have the right to break any law on the books just because you don't agree with it. You follow it because it is the law. Period. Illegal immigrants broke the law, plain and simple, and should not be rewarded for their crime. I can't speak for other legal immigrants, but it makes me extremely angry to see these illegals walking around as if they're entitled to citizenship. Citizenship is a privelege, not a right, and for those who have not earned that right (by breaking the law to enter the country) to claim that they should be granted it is just absurd.

/rant

I was speaking idiomatically.

What do you consider more important Your Humanity or Your AMerican Citizenship?
Me personally my Humanity and connection with all people I dont feel better because im a American.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by David4516

I feel that the boarder is a HUGE security risk. I can't believe that we're fighting a "war on terror" when our boarders are wide open. Some SOB can just walk right in from Canada or Mexico carrying a suit-case nuke.

Just like any SOB from almost anywhere in the United States can get out a suitcase nuke and blow us all up.
Violence isn't limited to foreigners.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by god

That is one of the most blatently false statements that I have heard/read in a while. My family is from Burkina Faso, and we immigrated to the US legally (as permanent residents with green cards) in 2000. This year we applied for citizenship. The waiting line is not 15 years as you seem to state with authority. We applied for and recieved our citizenship within the year. To state that illegal immigration is justified because of the backlog in the system is not only factually wrong, it breaks every legal tradition that the US has been following since its inception, namely the rule of law. You don't have the right to break any law on the books just because you don't agree with it. You follow it because it is the law. Period. Illegal immigrants broke the law, plain and simple, and should not be rewarded for their crime. I can't speak for other legal immigrants, but it makes me extremely angry to see these illegals walking around as if they're entitled to citizenship. Citizenship is a privelege, not a right, and for those who have not earned that right (by breaking the law to enter the country) to claim that they should be granted it is just absurd.

/rant

I am not talking about citizenship (for which the most common way to apply takes 7 years, a sponsor, and a couple of tests of proficiency of both the language and american history). I am talking about LEAVING your country in the most common of ways to enter the US - through and i485. There is a cap (of either 33,000 or 55,000 if you are a special worker) per year for that, and the current waiting time in line is beyond a decade.

Also, the point is that there is no sense in following a ridiculous law. If you did, kudos to you. Some people prefer justice, though.

Originally Posted by Lord Styphon

I fail to see why illegal immigrants breaking the laws of the United States by entering the country illegally is not relavent.

It is not relevant in a sense that criminalizes them, like night phoenix puts it. Do you want to make illegal immigrants felons?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

In what sense is the law ridiculous. I think you have to support your assertion.

Originally Posted by gukarma

I am not talking about citizenship (for which the most common way to apply takes 7 years, a sponsor, and a couple of tests of proficiency of both the language and american history). I am talking about LEAVING your country in the most common of ways to enter the US - through and i485. There is a cap (of either 33,000 or 55,000 if you are a special worker) per year for that, and the current waiting time in line is beyond a decade.

Although it's clear that you at least sort-of know what you're talking about, you're still oversimplifying the issue. If you can demonstrate a need for immigration: i.e. political refugee, you can get into the USA much quicker and easier, often bypassng the cap. Also the caps are not as simple as 33,000. There are limits per country, profession, and other factors.

Also, if you didn't realize, there is a limit of people we can have in this country. We can't just open our borders and let every person unhappy with their country into ours. That's highly impractical considering we have limited resources and land. These immigrants are moving always into urban centers since they rarely have skills useful outside of those. Our urban centers are already crowded, polluted, and underfinanced as fuck.

I'm of the opinion that the Mexicans should just fix their country instead of fleeing like a bunch of rats escaping a sinking ship. The ship is, after all, not sinking. Although NAFTA screwed the farmers, it gave shitloads of OTHER opportunities.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

This is what you miss gukarma. Those illegals have no right to be here, they have no right to make a living here, they have no right to use our social services, they have no right drain our economy by sending money to mexico, and they are criminals. Period.

So gukarma, are you pro-criminal? You want all those drugs to keep flowing through our boarder? Do you want those people to keep coming here so that hard working Americans wages are deflated?

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Gumby

This is what you miss gukarma. Those illegals have no right to be here, they have no right to make a living here, they have no right to use our social services, they have no right drain our economy by sending money to mexico, and they are criminals. Period.

I'm more or less with you until the 'drain our economy by sending money to Mexico' thing. I agree they haven't the right to do anything there as they are illegally present. But there's nothing wrong with sending money out of country if you are legally landed.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

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So gukarma, are you pro-criminal?

Ever heard of an ad-hominem?

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Although it's clear that you at least sort-of know what you're talking about, you're still oversimplifying the issue. If you can demonstrate a need for immigration: i.e. political refugee, you can get into the USA much quicker and easier, often bypassng the cap. Also the caps are not as simple as 33,000. There are limits per country, profession, and other factors.

Also, if you didn't realize, there is a limit of people we can have in this country. We can't just open our borders and let every person unhappy with their country into ours. That's highly impractical considering we have limited resources and land. These immigrants are moving always into urban centers since they rarely have skills useful outside of those. Our urban centers are already crowded, polluted, and underfinanced as fuck.

I'm of the opinion that the Mexicans should just fix their country instead of fleeing like a bunch of rats escaping a sinking ship. The ship is, after all, not sinking. Although NAFTA screwed the farmers, it gave shitloads of OTHER opportunities.

Our economy doesn't seem to be under incredible strain simply because of immigration; saying that would be making immigration an escape goat. We've had pretty fucking uncontrolable immigration up to now, and things seem to be doing well.

Think about it this way: if the immigrants that are here now were forced to pay taxes, and forced to legalize themselves, and there was much stricter border security, and a more lenient manner of immigration into the country NOW, everything would be perfect. That's what I am arguing for. Do you agree with me?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

PUG1911: I agree there is nothing wrong with people who are here legally sending money outside of the United States, they have that right. HOWEVER illegals do not have that right. Ever wonder why the United States is the single largest income for Mexicans, in Mexico?

gukarma: No I don't agree, everyone who is here illegally should not get citizenship nor a green card. You are still suggesting the rewarding of criminals.

I suggest this. A national ID card as the solution. Make it so that only citizens and people who are legally here can get these (include what ever information i.e. retina scans so that these cards can not be faked), then require that in order to work you have to have one of these cards and any employer caught hiring people with out these cards will be fined so heavily their arshe might never recover. You then don't need to move a single illegal; they will leave on their own because there is no work for them.

I was speaking idiomatically.

That already exists; a person who hires someone without a soial security number or legal working permit can get fined heavily, as was established by national courts in 1986 (?) I believe.

Besides, fining people for going with the best labor is against the roots of capitalism, and people (especially businesses) will be against it even more heavily than people were against unions.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Gumby - They dont have a right to work here - Im sorry but me being a PERSON will not allow me to agree with you, My country the United States has a unfair share of Wealth,I dont believe some people are just entitled to this amount of wealth, Not even curing aids means u get to have so much more while others suffer, some people disagree though, I guess having millions in the bank - And buying 12 Cars, and having 6 houses is more important than educating your neighboor and fellow human beings. Y do they have no right to be here Are they not humans? - Their ancestors at least in part like mine where probably born here thousands of years before yours came here.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by gukarma

I am not talking about citizenship (for which the most common way to apply takes 7 years, a sponsor, and a couple of tests of proficiency of both the language and american history). I am talking about LEAVING your country in the most common of ways to enter the US - through and i485. There is a cap (of either 33,000 or 55,000 if you are a special worker) per year for that, and the current waiting time in line is beyond a decade.

Also, the point is that there is no sense in following a ridiculous law. If you did, kudos to you. Some people prefer justice, though.

Are you then advocating that every citizen have the right to obey or disobey the law as they see fit? If I think that justice involves me killing you, should the government turn a blind eye? If you kill my brother, should I have the right to kill you in retaliation? A system of vigilante justice would never work. That's why we have the rule of law in America.

Originally Posted by gukarma

It is not relevant in a sense that criminalizes them, like night phoenix puts it. Do you want to make illegal immigrants felons?

Yes I do. They broke a law. They are criminals. They should not have the same rights, priveleges, and access to social services that legal immigrants like me have.

The fact that I immigrated to the US before becoming a citizen disproves your point. My point is that from my personal experience, there isn't a prohibitive barrier to coming to this country legally. It's the fact that Mexico is both a poor country and a neighbor to the US that allows Mexican citizens to feel that they have the right to enter the country for their own benefit whilst undocumented. This debate is not an anti-immigrant one; it's an anti illegal immigration movement. People seem to lose that perspective in the heat of the debate.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by god

Are you then advocating that every citizen have the right to obey or disobey the law as they see fit? If I think that justice involves me killing you, should the government turn a blind eye? If you kill my brother, should I have the right to kill you in retaliation? A system of vigilante justice would never work. That's why we have the rule of law in America.

There is a precedent in the US for disobeying unfair and unrealistic laws.

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Yes I do. They broke a law. They are criminals. They should not have the same rights, priveleges, and access to social services that legal immigrants like me have.

The fact that I immigrated to the US before becoming a citizen disproves your point. My point is that from my personal experience, there isn't a prohibitive barrier to coming to this country legally. It's the fact that Mexico is both a poor country and a neighbor to the US that allows Mexican citizens to feel that they have the right to enter the country for their own benefit whilst undocumented. This debate is not an anti-immigrant one; it's an anti illegal immigration movement. People seem to lose that perspective in the heat of the debate.

I came to the country legally, and it took a hell of a long time and a hell of a lot of money. Most of the people I have met went through the same problem.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Well God where u might not have had a problem because u could afford immigration, Do u think if people could easily do it and it was affordable they would risk their lives and pay a cyote thousands of dollars to do it - If it was so easy as u claim.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Igod82

Well God where u might not have had a problem because u could afford immigration, Do u think if people could easily do it and it was affordable they would risk their lives and pay a cyote thousands of dollars to do it - If it was so easy as u claim.

I guess that that's where a guest worker program fits in this debate. I'm not against people coming to this country to work, I'm against them doing it undocumented. It is a huge security risk to have a population of 10-12 million people that the government has absolutely no clue about. Many of them might actually be hard-working people trying to better their lives (albeit illegally) but what about the rest? We need a system of keeping tabs on them that doesn't involve giving them citizenship at any point, since they're criminals and we don't really want to be making citizens out of people with criminal records. That starts with a more secure border first, and then a guest worker program.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by god

I guess that that's where a guest worker program fits in this debate. I'm not against people coming to this country to work, I'm against them doing it undocumented. It is a huge security risk to have a population of 10-12 million people that the government has absolutely no clue about. Many of them might actually be hard-working people trying to better their lives (albeit illegally) but what about the rest? We need a system of keeping tabs on them that doesn't involve giving them citizenship at any point, since they're criminals and we don't really want to be making citizens out of people with criminal records. That starts with a more secure border first, and then a guest worker program.

Yes, that makes a lot of sense. However, this is what I have been arguing for since the beggining, and your airs were much more antagonistic a few posts ago. Change your mind?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Igod82

I dont believe some people are just entitled to this amount of wealth, Not even curing aids means u get to have so much more while others suffer, some people disagree though, I guess having millions in the bank - And buying 12 Cars, and having 6 houses is more important than educating your neighboor and fellow human beings. Y do they have no right to be here Are they not humans? - Their ancestors at least in part like mine where probably born here thousands of years before yours came here.

Originally Posted by Igod82

Do u think if people could easily do it and it was affordable they would risk their lives and pay a cyote thousands of dollars to do it - If it was so easy as u claim.

No offense, dude, but what the hell?

How ya doing, buddy?