Why not legalize prostitution?

I'm still wondering how killerpineapple thinks that putting people into prison and/or stigmatizing their record is forgiving them for their transgressions. That's something I don't think was ever addressed, since I doubt he wants to think about it.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Hey guys,

Soluzar: Gee I guess it depends on what you consider morality issues. Prostitution certainly qualifies as one for me. Here's more, some allowed by law, other not so much: suicide, drug use, statutory rape, public indecency, abortion, slander/libel, FCC guidelines, animal testing, racism, fur industry, gay marriage. Of course there's hardly anything along the lines of "love thy neighbor" on the books which is what your maybe looking for. (Racial discrimination comes a little close I guess.) With stuff like that, yeah, there's not very much I can think of that's a law. Hrm. Tell me if I'm understanding you correctly or not about that.

Denicalis: Same issue as Soluzar. I'll concede your point if we're talking about "love thy neighbor" kind of stuff. I still think a lot of my list qualifies as morality issues though. :P There's a variety of reasons why I can't lump gay marriage, anal sex, and prostitution into the same category. Some of it has to do with my faith (warning: don't try to 2nd guess me on the gay marriage issue ) and some of it has to do with what I feel are the social implications...or whether there are any implications to begin with.

And I'm totally on board with you guys that safety issues with prostitution will go way down if it's legalized. I'm more interested however in protecting people from becoming involved in the first place. I wouldn't want the people I love to do it (most people feel that way) and I feel that even people I don't know should be protected from it. Some people want the right to be able to fudge up their life. I'd rather they didn't have those opportunities.

Grail: Sorry, I don't quite see what was so silly about my words. I'll play along though. I don't think high school should be outlawed. Instead we should legalize bullying and physical assault. That way the teachers and staff, who are stronger and wiser, can provide those same experiences in a safer environment with immediate access to medical treatment and counseling. The bad things still happen, but the damage is reduced to an acceptable level. Perhaps it will open up career opportunities for bullying specialists thereby helping with the economy as well. Bleh, what I just wrote is juvenile, irrelevant, and worst of all unfunny. But the highschool/prostitution comparison wasn't very well constructed either.

Bradylama: I have thought about forgiving criminals. Yes, I'm obligated to forgive people for their thoughts and deeds. That doesn't mean that if I was king I would let every murderer run free. The rest of the people need to be safe from those who would endanger them. So it is possible to forgive someone and still incarcerate them. I'm not sure what you mean about "stigmatizing their record" so I'll try to guess. Actually I'm too tired to guess. Brain hurts. I'm not sure if you're talking about labeling people or processing someone as a felon which can hurt their opportunities in the future. Let me know which, or if it's something else.

Good night!

I was speaking idiomatically.

Don't you think that your wishes for people shouldn't override their own when it comes to having the individual right to do something that isn't necessarily harmful? That's what I think. This point has been made a bazillion times already, though. It seems like this thread is mostly one dude explaining how the world would be if he was master of the universe and never checked his suggestion box.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Brothels do exist. There's places you can go and legally be with a woman for a night - but they're trained specialists that can give you massages and all that other fancy stuff.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by killerpineapple

And I'm totally on board with you guys that safety issues with prostitution will go way down if it's legalized. I'm more interested however in protecting people from becoming involved in the first place. I wouldn't want the people I love to do it (most people feel that way) and I feel that even people I don't know should be protected from it. Some people want the right to be able to fudge up their life. I'd rather they didn't have those opportunities.

Grail: Sorry, I don't quite see what was so silly about my words. I'll play along though. I don't think high school should be outlawed. Instead we should legalize bullying and physical assault. That way the teachers and staff, who are stronger and wiser, can provide those same experiences in a safer environment with immediate access to medical treatment and counseling. The bad things still happen, but the damage is reduced to an acceptable level. Perhaps it will open up career opportunities for bullying specialists thereby helping with the economy as well. Bleh, what I just wrote is juvenile, irrelevant, and worst of all unfunny. But the highschool/prostitution comparison wasn't very well constructed either.

Look at what you just posted above me. You'd like to protect them from fudging up their lives. Fair enough, but guess what? Even the smartest kids who go to high school could end up blowing their own brains out, or someone else's due to bullying and non-acceptance. I certainly don't want MY CHILDREN to experience this kind of travesty such as bullying. So denying them the experience of high school, and what it can do for them, I am in fact doing my job as a lovely member of society by closing my eyes, ignoring the facts, and going nyah nyah nyah.

Is this not sinking in to you? Or are you just a troll who's opinion is law?

I just don't think you seem to get it. You don't want your kid to grow up and be a prostitue, fair enough, but I don't want my kid being bullied throughout their whole life like I was in school. Either way, however, it's bound to happen. What choices do I have? Home school? Private school? Teach my kid to beat up other kids first?

Personally, I think you're nothing but scum. Telling adults what to do with themselves, and making sure one job profession that's been as old as time continues to stay outlawed so that those who might not even WANT to be in that profession, forced if you will, continue to stay that way because it's not legalized...that's just fucking pathetic. And you sir will be the one burning in hell.

Honestly, put two and two together pineapple. If prostitution becomes legalized, that puts less demand on streetwalkers because, for the most part, everyone will be going to the actual establishments due to health and safety reasons. Streetwalker rates go down, Pimps start dissapearing...Less girls forced into being streetwalkers because, well, there would be no use for them.

I think it's pathetic that you only want to protect your loved ones. IF something good could come out of legalizing prostitution. Why not be for it? If it makes the world a better place because people CHOOSE to go into the profession, why would it be so bad for it to be legalized?

Oh...I forgot...It's icky. Well checking cow shit for health and a steady diet is an icky job...but is it outlawed? Fuck NO bitch. And once again, I'm going to sit back and lounge in the sweet irony that your daughter, upon reaching adulthood, will in fact probably turn tricks for a living. Sweet irony for those that can't get it through their heads that compassion just doesn't mean caring for immediate family members.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by killerpineapple

Tell me if I'm understanding you correctly or not about that.

Since Denicalis obviously has this one, is it OK if I just cede the floor to him? He's much better at this kind of thing than I am. The point I'd like to make is that those laws don't legislate morality for the most part. They legislate the protection of minors, infringing on the rights of others, and things like that. You're mistaking those laws for legislated morality because they happen to be compatible with your idea of morality, but that's not entirely an accurate view.

I'll leave it to Deni from now because I know he can pull this off better than I can.

Quote:

warning: don't try to 2nd guess me on the gay marriage issue

I want to ask, but it would derail the thread. The only reason you could have for posting that is because you feel your view is not the same as that of the stereotypical Christian, which means...

Damn. I don't want to drag the thread off-topic.

Quote:

Some people want the right to be able to fudge up their life. I'd rather they didn't have those opportunities.

Your idea of improving society is to curtail the rights of the individual. Maybe you'll live to see the day when society is improved so much that some rights you care about are the ones that the "morally superior" are interested in taking from you.

Should that day come, I hope that somehow you are reminded of this thread.

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Originally Posted by Soluzar

I'll leave it to Deni from now because I know he can pull this off better than I can.

Ok.

Originally Posted by killerpineapple

Hey guys,

Soluzar: Gee I guess it depends on what you consider morality issues. Prostitution certainly qualifies as one for me. Here's more, some allowed by law, other not so much: suicide, drug use, statutory rape, public indecency, abortion, slander/libel, FCC guidelines, animal testing, racism, fur industry, gay marriage.

Suicide is not a moral law. And the law against suicide is laughable. It shouldn't be on the books at all. "Try and kill yourself? Fined!"

Drug use is illegal for many reasons, however, a large majority of drug laws are moral ones, and they're stupid and shouldn't exist either. See: Holland. Legalize drug use, reduce drug crime and the problems associated with drug addiction.

Statutory rape: Is usually based on the concept of being of sound mind to consent. Age of consent in Canada is 14. Every 15 year old I've ever met has been smart enough to understand the ramifications of sex. People who say a 17 year old fucking a 22 year old is somehow immoral are hilariously fooling themselves. As if that 17 year old doesn't know what they're doing.

Public indecency says what you can't do in a public forum, not what you can't do, period. I'm not saying people should be allowed to hire a prostitute and get a blowjob in the city square. Privacy of their own bedroom etc.

abortion should never be illegal. Ever. It's fucking insulting to women to say you have a right over what they can do with their body.

Slander/libel just says you can't LIE about someone in a damaging way. If they stole from a company, and you can prove they did it, it isn't slander.

FCC is a joke. That IS legislating morality. The only thing that should decide what is fit for the ears of the public is the public. Don't like it? Turn it off.

Animal testing is more about cruelty than a right to anything. It stops undue suffering, not unlike abolishing the guillotine.

Racism isn't illegal. Inciting people to murder someone because of racism is. Huge difference.

Fur industry isn't illegal, it's just rejected by a large section of society. People can choose not to purchase anything they want. They're free to that right.

Gay marriage is the same thing. They legislated morality, something they have no right to do.

A free country doesn't legislate morality, it legislates the state. Stay out of the bedrooms of the people.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Denicalis

abortion should never be illegal. Ever. It's fucking insulting to women to say you have a right over what they can do with their body.

Abortion makes me sad , but I agree with you.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I think it's sadder that a bunch of men in suits can determine what women can or can't do with their bodies.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Grail

I certainly don't want MY CHILDREN to experience this kind of travesty such as bullying. So denying them the experience of high school, and what it can do for them, I am in fact doing my job as a lovely member of society by closing my eyes, ignoring the facts, and going nyah nyah nyah.

Sorry Grail, I'm not understanding that last sentence. But that may be because I didn't really understand what it was I wrote about highschool earlier. About your other thoughts though...

I have two fundamental problems with the highscool/prostitution comparison. First, one is required (with few alternative options) and the other is a career choice of sorts. Second, the bad parts of high school are caused by its participants outside the original intent of instruction while the bad parts of prostitution (to me) is the act itself.

Three corrections I need to make from your post Grail
1) I AGREE with you guys that legalized prostitution will make the industry safer but I still feel it should be outlawed for reasons I've stated many times. I'm not expecting you to agree with those reasons, just understand that's how myself and millions of other people think.
2) I've stated twice that I care for both people I know and people I don't. So I'll say it again...I care about and want to help people I don't even know.
3) I also never used the phrase "icky", but at least that inference makes a little bit of sense. But the way you're kind of quoting me on it really makes some assumptions about my opinions that just aren't true.

To those I've annoyed: I apologize to anyone whom I've flat out said "you're wrong" to. Not cool of me. I'm trying mainly to explain my position. In this case it seems fairly important since most of us think prostitution is legal and yet it remains illegal in most of the U.S. My unique stance lets me explain how the 'other side' thinks. I have no doubts that it comes off as trolling, and to some degree it fits the definition perfectly, although I'm not intentionally trying offend anyone.

I know most of you guys think I'm scum. I guess I'm 'okay' with that. Obviously i don't agree. Or at least not for my thoughts on this particular issue.

Soluzar: I realize the danger of limiting the rights of an individual and yet in certain situations (like prostitution) I feel the safety and comfort of the many outweigh the rights of the few. A huge point of disagreement, I know.

I kinda agree with how the protection of minors seems to be more basic and fundamental than moral issues. I can't really explain it but those types of laws just seem "right". There's some gray area, like how young is too young and so forth, but most of those laws seem right on without any controversy that accompanies moral issues.

Perhaps one day I will lose some rights I cherish to a political force that justifies those laws with the morality argument. I'm obligated by my faith to endure any laws that don't interfere with my salvation. But I'd be lying if I said that I wouldn't be disappointed to lose my right to vote, or my right to marry who I want, or any number of rights. Still, my thoughts on prostitution wouldn't change.

Denicalis: You totally put much more thought into this than I have. I certainly don't disagree with you on every issue either. I'm just gonna pick a few to respond to, and briefly so, since it is gets away from the main topic.

Drug use: This is a complicated one for me. Not every drug is equal. I think alcohol and cigarettes are much more dangerous to users and to society than many illegal drugs. This issue does bear some strong similarities to the prostitution issue, but drugs seem more complicated to me.

Abortion: This is indeed a sad issue. I think there are times when it is utterly inappropriate. But I can't see any way to legislate it perfectly. It is an incredibly complicated issue. Here's a quote from an alien impersonating Bob Dole on The Simpsons as he tries to make all the voters happy, "Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others!"

The FCC: Yeah, it's a joke. Maybe it will get better when all TV media goes digital and parental guide settings are mandatory on television receivers. I still don't want porn on channel 5 and Sesame Street on channel 4.

Racism: You can't kick someone out of a restaurant or cab because of ethnicity. Employers can't discriminate who they hire based on race. To me this is an example of morality laws being useful to everyone (except racists i suppose). But I gather some of us might not categorize this as a morality thing.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by killerpineapple

or my right to marry who I want

Exactly. If women or men can't sell their bodies for money in a well organized way, and if homosexuals can't marry who they want to marry...what gives you the right, right now, to do the same?

Edit: As for my whole 'highschool/prostitution' deal. Think of it this way: Think of the teachers as prostitutes, and then think of all the men going to their service as students or whatnot.

In each area there are risks and dangers to be had...students getting bullied in high school, women finding out that their husbands cheated on them with a prostitute blah blah blah...either way, both are damaging in their own rights, but in the end who really ends up getting hurt the most? You can't tell me a straight answer like that.

Kid snaps, shoots up a school...jealous guy/girl over a prostitute shoots up a brothel. Both would be rare occurances.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Quote:

I have thought about forgiving criminals. Yes, I'm obligated to forgive people for their thoughts and deeds. That doesn't mean that if I was king I would let every murderer run free.

Funnily enough, sending more pimps and prostitutes to jail means early parole for murderers. Oh, Justice System, it's like you have finite resources.

Quote:

The rest of the people need to be safe from those who would endanger them.

I feel confident that my safety is being ensured against the threat of Call Girls. Give me a fucking break.

Quote:

I'm not sure if you're talking about labeling people or processing someone as a felon which can hurt their opportunities in the future. Let me know which, or if it's something else.

Both. Being processed as a solicitor is going to cut you off from a lot of opportunities, whereas if it was a legal practice any whore could walk away from pulling tricks and go into another field.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Grail

As for my whole 'highschool/prostitution' deal. Think of it this way: Think of the teachers as prostitutes, and then think of all the men going to their service as students or whatnot.

Ah, that does make more sense. But I still have to disagree with your main point for the two problems I mentioned before regarding the comparison itself and my general thoughts on the issue.

Originally Posted by Grail

students getting bullied in high school, women finding out that their husbands cheated on them with a prostitute blah blah blah...either way, both are damaging in their own rights, but in the end who really ends up getting hurt the most? You can't tell me a straight answer like that.

You're right, I can't give a straight answer. I'm not sure it's possible. I don't think high school and prostitution should be compared in the first place. So forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you and write an answer that misses the point. Here goes...

At first glance I don't think you can say with 100% accuracy that school violence is more or less hurtful than violence in the sex industry. But the sex industry isn't a required part of American culture. The crimes and abuse that happen to prostitutes and erotic dancers signify consequences of an unnecessary part of life. Thus it should follow that such consequences could be avoided entirely (only it doesn't follow because in the case of prostitution people continue to do it illegally, which I really wish they wouldn't).

If instead you compared prostitution to something like being a late night liquor store clerk, it might make more sense. Both are professions where the clients come voluntarily. Both are linked to violence against the seller. Both allow patrons to do indecent things (fornication vs. alcohol, cigarettes, and twinkies). But I would still argue that prostitution is worse because it offers nothing of redeeming value to society as a whole and in my opinion actually worsens it. A liquor store at least provides food, water, and other amenities.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

I feel confident that my safety is being ensured against the threat of Call Girls.

Well is was referring to murder at the time. But I'm okay with imprisoning a prostitute in places where it is illegal. Doing so prevents people from being able to solicit one.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

I'm still wondering how killerpineapple thinks that putting people into prison and/or stigmatizing their record is forgiving them for their transgressions.

Okay, I think I already answered the prison part of the question. As for labeling someone...that also doesn't get in the way of my ability to forgive someone. In places where prostitution is illegal it's just a matter of disclosure. But as I said, I need to be forgiving, and when encountering such people I absolutely must not judge them by their criminal record alone and be open minded as they explain it to me. I've learned that EVERYTHING in life is more complicated than it seems initially.

The situation changes in places where prostitution is legal. If I were to meet a prostitute there I still need to be forgiving and open minded. When it comes to public issues I could not and should not limit their opportunities in accordance with the law of the land. For private issues it would be up to me to decide. Do I want this person as a babysitter? Probably not. Although I still forgive them for what I believe to be a sin, I can still choose not to let a person like that into my house if I have good reason to do so. In this case I don't want a person who approves of that lifestyle being an influence on my family. What if this person is teacher for my child during the day and a prostitute at night? If I don't want to allow that (and I can't say for certainty that I won't) then I'm the one who must bear the burden of moving my child to a different school. It would be absolutely unfair of me to demand that teacher be fired. It would also be unfair of me to demand that my child be moved to a different teacher in the same school or even to vocalize my discomfort to the community and smear the teacher's name. The same courtesy should be extended to convicted prostitutes who served their time and now abide by the law.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Look, what this is going to come down to is that KP believes his morals are more important than freedom of choice. And no amount of arguing is going to change that. He thinks some archaic, non-existent utopia of judeo-christian morality is the key. I say its suffocating and strangles the life out of a man. It's never going to get worked out, though. Because you can't convince him with logic, and he can't convince us with belief.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Quote:

Well is was referring to murder at the time. But I'm okay with imprisoning a prostitute in places where it is illegal. Doing so prevents people from being able to solicit one.

Right, but whoring isn't a danger to the public, and while you can argue that whores spread diseases, this is easily avoided through medical regulations.

Quote:

Okay, I think I already answered the prison part of the question. As for labeling someone...that also doesn't get in the way of my ability to forgive someone. In places where prostitution is illegal it's just a matter of disclosure. But as I said, I need to be forgiving, and when encountering such people I absolutely must not judge them by their criminal record alone and be open minded as they explain it to me. I've learned that EVERYTHING in life is more complicated than it seems initially.

That's great, but you're not an employer, who tends not to be so forgiving when it comes to trusting their potential employees. Nor are you a justice system. You're absolving yourself of any responsibility regarding the incarceration of prostitutes by forgiving them on a personal level while the state continues to keep their practices in the margins and limit their potential for personal development. Then when you're confronted about the fact that their lives are being ruined, you argue some letter of the law bullshit, which you don't care about to begin with since you don't think prostitution should be legal.

You have a hypocritical and shortsighted worldview.

No school board is going to want to employ a teacher who doubles as a working girl. You're inventing ridiculous hypotheticals.

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Originally Posted by Denicalis

Look, what this is going to come down to is that KP believes his morals are more important than freedom of choice. And no amount of arguing is going to change that. He thinks some archaic, non-existent utopia of judeo-christian morality is the key. I say its suffocating and strangles the life out of a man. It's never going to get worked out, though. Because you can't convince him with logic, and he can't convince us with belief.

Although I'd say it a little differently, in general I'd have to say...

yup.

And to Bradylama: Well you can't blame me because prostitutes don't behave the way I want them to and also because the justice system doesn't behave the way I want them to either. I wish both sides abided wholesomely. Hypocrite just isn't what I am. Shortsighted? Perhaps. Just longing for a better world. Sorry about the hypothetical, someone else had brought it up earlier and I was just returning to it.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by killerpineapple

Although I'd say it a little differently, in general I'd have to say...

yup.

So, how can you be this openly blind? I just don't understand.

You basically admitted to being illogical and irrational, you know that, right? Way to step into a bear trap you phlegmatic fuck.

Quote:

Well you can't blame me because prostitutes don't behave the way I want them to and also because the justice system doesn't behave the way I want them to either.

Yeah and I hope that NEVER happens. I'm definitely not looking forward to wall watching as the pinnacle of entertainment.

Quote:

Not every drug is equal.

This makes sense, yes, but you could be (and I have a feeling you are) talking out of your ass here.

Quote:

...cigarettes are much more dangerous to users and to society than many illegal drugs.

Whoa ho ho, just confirmed it. Stating that cigarettes are more dangerous than any illegal drug, no matter which one you choose to use as an example, is just about the dumbest statement I've heard in a very, very, very long time. This confirms, beyond a shadow of a doubt, you're nothing but an over-sheltered, ignoramus, morality imposing prick. Go die in a fire.

PS: I bet you're religious too.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Divest

Whoa ho ho, just confirmed it. Stating that cigarettes are more dangerous than any illegal drug, no matter which one you choose to use as an example, is just about the dumbest statement I've heard in a very, very, very long time. This confirms, beyond a shadow of a doubt, you're nothing but an over-sheltered, ignoramus, morality imposing prick. Go die in a fire.

Ignoramus? You just ignored the letter m in his "any".

I was speaking idiomatically.

Err... it's tricky wording but it's right.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Well I'm used to being misinterpreted and over analyzed at this point. No biggie.

FELIPE NO

Care to elaborate?

I'm genuinely curious how you think cigarettes could be worse than any street drug you care to use as an example.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Divest

Care to elaborate?

I'm genuinely curious how you think cigarettes could be worse than any street drug you care to use as an example.

If you weren't stupid, you'd have realized he said "many" which means NOT all, thereby admitting that there are illegal drugs worse than cigarettes. The point here is that things like weed are illegal and harmless whilst things like cigarettes which have many negative health as well as environmental factors are legal. Way to pay attention.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by The_Melomane

If you weren't stupid, you'd have realized he said "many" which means NOT all, thereby admitting that there are illegal drugs worse than cigarettes. The point here is that things like weed are illegal and harmless whilst things like cigarettes which have many negative health as well as environmental factors are legal. Way to pay attention.

Christ Bessy, you're more clueless than he is.

First, I used the word "any" meaning he could use any example he wanted. Get it? I know he said many. You weren't the first astrophysicist to make this deduction.

Second, who the fuck are you kidding saying marijuana is less harmful than cigarettes. Smoking cigarettes don't alter your state of mind. Example: It's far safer to drive after smoking a cigarette than it is to drive after smoking a joint. Long term effects?

Spoiler:

Source

Cancer
It is known that marijuana contains some of the same, and sometimes even more, of the cancer-causing chemicals found in tobacco smoke. Studies show that someone who smokes five joints per day may be taking in as many cancer-causing chemicals as someone who smokes a full pack of cigarettes every day.

Lungs and airways
People who smoke marijuana often develop the same kinds of breathing problems that cigarette smokers have: coughing and wheezing. They tend to have more chest colds than nonusers. They are also at greater risk of getting lung infections like pneumonia.

Immune system
Animal studies have found that THC can damage the cells and tissues in the body that help protect against disease. When the immune cells are weakened you are more likely to get sick.

Now, if you feel the need to step away from your chocolate cake for two seconds and blurt out any other stupid shit feel free, otherwise, stop shitting all over pineapple's statements and let him speak for himself.

Trust me, you're only making him look smarter.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Wait.

Are you arguing that smoking butts is less harmful than smoking pot?

I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you there.

I mean, depending on the frequency of use of either item, cigarettes are far more harmful to the health of an individual than smoking pot is. (Granted, pot smokers don't usually smoke quite as much as cigarette smokers by habit, which should say something right there)

I could be wrong, but I have NEVER heard of death due to marijuana.

Cigarettes, however....

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Wait.

Are you arguing that smoking butts is less harmful than smoking pot?

No, no.

The complete opposite. I'm saying smoking pot is more harmful.

And I've heard of plenty of deaths related to marijuana.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?