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Products of Creation Science
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Misogynyst Gynecologist
In A Way, He Died In Every War


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Old Nov 16, 2007, 01:03 PM #76 of 270
And my apologies if I seem to be inflicting my views on anyone. I just want to defend my beliefs and encourage people not to judge a Christian (or any other group for that matter) by their cover.
So Christians hide just like those damn, dirty jews?

Seriously though? if you need to defend your beliefs, theres something wrong with them. Believe in something, stop trying to sell it with this guardhouse lawyer nonsense.

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I poked it and it made a sad sound
Struttin'


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Old Nov 16, 2007, 01:05 PM #77 of 270
Muslims believe that Christ was also a prophet, but that Muhammad (PBUH) was the last prophet sent by Allah.
Yes, I know, but they still recognize Christ as a really important dude. So do Christians.

You know how I feel about the whole mess. I was just trying to make a point, albeit vague.

That point being that among Christians, there's sometimes such a vast, vast difference in what they believe between congregations.

I wonder why they all call themselves "Christians," and not by their congregational organization. Like Morons and Jehovah's Witnesses. "Christian" is too broad if you ask me.


I was speaking idiomatically.
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Old Nov 16, 2007, 03:30 PM Local time: Nov 16, 2007, 01:30 PM #78 of 270
Seriously though? if you need to defend your beliefs, theres something wrong with them. Believe in something, stop trying to sell it with this guardhouse lawyer nonsense.
I imagine it's because they don't want false statements about their religion being spread around. I can imagine if I belonged to some group I'd want everyone to at least understand what my viewpoint is before they go off and criticize me for it.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
Misogynyst Gynecologist
In A Way, He Died In Every War


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Old Nov 16, 2007, 03:37 PM 1 #79 of 270
I imagine it's because they don't want false statements about their religion being spread around.
False statements in religion?!

FELIPE NO
killerpineapple
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Old Nov 16, 2007, 04:42 PM Local time: Nov 16, 2007, 02:42 PM #80 of 270
Seriously though? if you need to defend your beliefs, theres something wrong with them.
So the people who defend their belief in the theory of evolution, are wrong? Huh?

But perhaps we don't "believe" scientific facts, I mean, they're facts. No belief required. So how about moral beliefs, like equal rights for women, minorities, etc. Are people who defend those types of beliefs wrong?

Or maybe people just feel like speaking up when certain people get the wrong idea.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?
I poked it and it made a sad sound
Struttin'


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Old Nov 16, 2007, 04:54 PM #81 of 270
So the people who defend their belief in the theory of evolution, are wrong? Huh?
There's really nothing to "believe" in, though. It requires no faith. It requires reliance on scientific evidence. There's no emotion in it whatsoever.

Belief implies a desire to put faith into something.

Quote:
But perhaps we don't "believe" scientific facts, I mean, they're facts. No belief required. So how about moral beliefs, like equal rights for women, minorities, etc. Are people who defend those types of beliefs wrong?
Are you saying women AREN'T on par with men?
That minorities in our nation are LESS than whites?

I am sure you're not saying that, but there's a difference in believing that women and minorities are unequal to white men and putting faith into a deity. I hope you recognize this.

Jam it back in, in the dark.
Misogynyst Gynecologist
In A Way, He Died In Every War


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Old Nov 16, 2007, 05:19 PM #82 of 270
So how about moral beliefs
Morals are bullshit. Everyone has a different set of them and they're not quantifiable. What you think is fucked up, I think is funny. I think throwing pennies at jews and telling them to build me pyramids is a great joke - but not nearly as funny as the idea of passing twenty silver pieces out to a congregation.

Or maybe people just feel like speaking up when certain people get the wrong idea.
And it always seems to be the wrong people who speak up, isnt it? Or how else would everyone here have the stereotype of the ignorant pseudo-facist Christian follower. Certainly not by large majorities of intelligent, well-spoken, happy-go-lucky people we see day after day...

There's nowhere I can't reach.
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no


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Old Nov 16, 2007, 06:25 PM Local time: Nov 16, 2007, 03:25 PM #83 of 270
That point being that among Christians, there's sometimes such a vast, vast difference in what they believe between congregations.

I wonder why they all call themselves "Christians," and not by their congregational organization. Like Morons and Jehovah's Witnesses. "Christian" is too broad if you ask me.
That's a Freudian slip and a half.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
killerpineapple
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Old Nov 16, 2007, 06:49 PM Local time: Nov 16, 2007, 04:49 PM #84 of 270
I will defend science. I will defend morals. And I will defend my faith. What I'm trying to say is, contrary to what has been stated by another, that just because someone has to defend a belief doesn't automatically discredit that belief.

If you want to qualify LeHah's comment and change it to "...if you need to defend your RELIGIOUS beliefs, there's something wrong with them...", that would lead to another back-and-forth. But that would be an argument against ALL religions, albeit not a particularly good one.

And yes, I must admit that there is a difference between morals and faith. In the example I used the difference is clear. But for many issues (for me at least) the dividing line becomes gray. Charity, civil obedience, abortion, socialism, etc.: It's really difficult for me to separate myself from my faith when dealing with these types of moral issues. At times they seem to be the same thing.

how else would everyone here have the stereotype of the ignorant pseudo-facist Christian follower.
Um, I can't really take anything you say seriously in this thread anymore. I don't think you are going to get a lot of "intelligent, well-spoken, happy-go-lucky people " to jump on the "morals suck" and "stereotypes are good" bandwagon.

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Misogynyst Gynecologist
In A Way, He Died In Every War


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Old Nov 16, 2007, 08:07 PM #85 of 270
I don't think you are going to get a lot of "intelligent, well-spoken, happy-go-lucky people " to jump on the "morals suck" and "stereotypes are good" bandwagon.
The first person to say that stereotypes aren't based on anything is the first person to get laughed at. People just don't like owning up to anything, especially on the internet.

That said - the fact that you equate intelligent people with moral people shows just how fucking insipid and small-minded you actually are. I may be a sinner going to Hell the way he wants to - but I am not the one who's giving the big Jesus handjob of moral superiority over people who make a personal decision to do wrong.

I mean, at the very least, any time I get head, I do it to spite your God.

I was speaking idiomatically.
No. Hard Pass.
Salty for Salt's Sake


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Old Nov 16, 2007, 08:11 PM Local time: Nov 16, 2007, 07:11 PM #86 of 270
And you also bite off of Deadwood, which is pretty fucking sweet.

The world needs more Wild Bill.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?


John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD.

Misogynyst Gynecologist
In A Way, He Died In Every War


Member 389

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Old Nov 16, 2007, 08:19 PM #87 of 270
And you also bite off of Deadwood, which is pretty fucking sweet.

The world needs more Wild Bill.
The funny thing is that I've gotten use to that as an AIM away message for so long, I forgot it was from Deadwood...

FELIPE NO
No. Hard Pass.
Salty for Salt's Sake


Member 27

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Old Nov 16, 2007, 08:22 PM Local time: Nov 16, 2007, 07:22 PM #88 of 270
"Can't you let me go to hell the way I want?"

"Yeah. Yeah, I can do that."

Great line.

A buddy of mine once told me he almost wished Otakukin were real, because then maybe, JUST MAYBE, he had a shot of being reborn as Wild Bill in Deadwood.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?


John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD.

Windsong
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Old Nov 16, 2007, 09:11 PM #89 of 270
"Creation science" is nothing more than a euphemism for fundamentalist Christian rhetoric.
Why not just say "Christianity"? If you're going to bash Christians (and you might as well lump Jews and Muslims in there as well since a majority of them favor Creationism), at least get the wording correct.

How ya doing, buddy?
No. Hard Pass.
Salty for Salt's Sake


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Old Nov 16, 2007, 09:14 PM Local time: Nov 16, 2007, 08:14 PM #90 of 270
Why not just say "Christianity"? If you're going to bash Christians (and you might as well lump Jews and Muslims in there as well since a majority of them favor Creationism), at least get the wording correct.
Because he's not saying all christians believe in christian science, dipshit. He's saying it's a fundamentalist wing of a religion. That's sort of like saying why specify Al Qaeda? Why not just say "muslims"? Oh, I don't know, because it would be wrong?

Creationism is NOT Creation Science. Creationism is a religious belief, Creation Science is a deliberate attempt to mislead and misrepresent what it is.

Shut up.

There's nowhere I can't reach.


John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD.

Watts
"Thieves, Robbers, Politicians!"


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Old Nov 16, 2007, 09:31 PM Local time: Nov 16, 2007, 07:31 PM 2 #91 of 270
Two thousand years from now, I bet most people will think all our modern theories are moronic and that we're all dipshits for thinking otherwise.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
No. Hard Pass.
Salty for Salt's Sake


Member 27

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Old Nov 16, 2007, 09:55 PM Local time: Nov 16, 2007, 08:55 PM #92 of 270
Two thousand years from now, I bet most people will think all our modern theories are moronic and that we're all dipshits for thinking otherwise.
Adding... what to the conversation at hand? Yeah, 2000 years from now science will be eclipsed by more elaborate science. That's how it works. Would you care to explain how white isn't black next?

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John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD.

Sarag
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Old Nov 16, 2007, 10:02 PM #93 of 270
Wait.

I'm not a Christian, so I don't know how you guys do stuff, but some people say it's your job to impose your religion on others, and then some say you shouldn't like you just did there.

Which is it? I'm a little lost here. Which congregation do you belong to? Must be different from Loserbutt's there. Which is why I always wonder why you all call yourselves Christian when you don't really believe in the same things. (Yea, yea, Jesus and all that - but the Muslims also believe Christ was a prophet or some thing...so uhhh...)
this isn't universal. A lot of christian curches / christian individuals feel that prolethysizing isn't necessary and in fact a dickish thing to do.

Some churches say you'll go to hell if you don't. A lot of people in those churches dont' really even like doing it, but who wants to go to hell?

And then there are people who think you just haven't thought hard enough about it. I mean, I understand that, I think the same way about a lot of people to. Generally I'm right.

I was speaking idiomatically.
wvlfpvp
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Old Nov 16, 2007, 10:58 PM 1 #94 of 270
HOLY SHIT I'M GONNA SAY SOMETHING HERE:

I'm a Christian. One of those "liberal" ones, which means that I've started down the path that certain sects of Judaism have been on A LONG TIME: the one where you take the Bible and make sense of it intellectually. (It is possible!)

I blame my (very strong in his Christian faith) Bible prof from my freshman year at a conservative Christian college. He basically said that the 'six day' thing is because the Jewish people for whom the Bible was originally written had no concept of hundreds of thousands of years, let ALONE the millions of years that the universe has been around. Oh, and the fact that creation is told twice (in different ways and orders, even) kinda makes it hard for everything in the bible to be ENTIRELY FACTUAL and NOT METAPHORICAL at all.

Plus I believe that science merely shows how God works (or set stuff in motion). This comes about through the FACT that microevolution is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt and macroevolution is mostly microevolution over millions of years. So why couldn't God have built evolution into the Universe? It makes enough sense to satisfy me.

OK I'm done for now.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
It was lunchtime at Wagstaff.
Touching butts had been banned by the evil Headmaster Frond.
Suddenly, Tina Belcher appeared in the doorway.
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She touched Jimmy Jr's butt and changed the world.
Watts
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Old Nov 17, 2007, 03:59 AM Local time: Nov 17, 2007, 01:59 AM #95 of 270
Adding... what to the conversation at hand? Yeah, 2000 years from now science will be eclipsed by more elaborate science. That's how it works.
You miss the point. So what if some people still believe in creationism. There's no reason to be baited or overreact to whatever some sect of Christians still persist in believing after two thousand years. Save your outrage for something more worthwhile.

I find this all hilarious as hell. See you there!

FELIPE NO
No. Hard Pass.
Salty for Salt's Sake


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Old Nov 17, 2007, 04:15 AM Local time: Nov 17, 2007, 03:15 AM #96 of 270
Except, Watts, that this moved away from philosophical debate and into the realm of actual issue when they started teaching Creation Science in certain classrooms in the US. Or that at any point, dozens of school systems across the United States are being lobbied to include Creation Science as curriculum, taking away from actual education.

You're talking creationism. We're talking Creation Science. Very different things, skipper. We don't care about creationism, we care about the small sect of Creationists trying to push it as SCIENCE into our CLASSROOMS. And if education isn't worth getting worked up about, that's your problem and you can find somewhere else to not follow the line of conversation.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?


John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD.

Watts
"Thieves, Robbers, Politicians!"


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Old Nov 17, 2007, 04:36 AM Local time: Nov 17, 2007, 02:36 AM #97 of 270
Except, Watts, that this moved away from philosophical debate and into the realm of actual issue when they started teaching Creation Science in certain classrooms in the US. Or that at any point, dozens of school systems across the United States are being lobbied to include Creation Science as curriculum, taking away from actual education.
Name a school district where this is currently being taught. The one school district where the board of education succeeded in introducing this to the curriculum every member got the boot. There is no standing court ruling where this is upheld as legal or constitutional.

There is no rampaging horde of creationists that can make it stick. (bold for emphasis)

I guess everybody needs their political demons. So we can all unite against the Jews/Blacks/Creationists/Abortionists/Women/etc or whatever agenda you're subscribing to. Hey, tolerance is only for the jews and the niggers.

Jam it back in, in the dark.
No. Hard Pass.
Salty for Salt's Sake


Member 27

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Mar 2006


Old Nov 17, 2007, 04:46 AM Local time: Nov 17, 2007, 03:46 AM 1 #98 of 270
Name a school district where this is currently being taught. The one school district where the board of education succeeded in introducing this to the curriculum every member got the boot. There is no standing court ruling where this is upheld as legal or constitutional.

There is no rampaging horde of creationists that can make it stick. (bold for emphasis)

I guess everybody needs their political demons. So we can all unite against the Jews/Blacks/Creationists/Abortionists/Women/etc or whatever agenda you're subscribing to. Hey, tolerance is only for the jews and the niggers.
On August 11, 1999, by a 6–4 vote the Kansas State Board of Education changed their science education standards to remove any mention of "biological macroevolution, the age of the Earth, or the origin and early development of the Universe", so that evolutionary theory no longer appeared in state-wide standardized tests and "it was left to the 305 local school districts in Kansas whether or not to teach it."[10] This decision was hailed by creationists, and sparked a statewide and nationwide controversy with scientists condemning the change.[11] Challengers in the state's Republican primary who made opposition to the anti-evolution standards their focus were voted in on August 1, 2000, so on February 14, 2001, the Board voted 7–3 to reinstate the teaching of biological evolution and the origin of the earth into the state's science education standards.[10]

In 2002, proponents of intelligent design asked the Ohio Board of Education to adopt intelligent design as part of its standard biology curriculum, in line with the guidelines of the Edwards v. Aguillard holding. In December 2002, the Board adopted a proposal that permitted, but did not require, the teaching of intelligent design.

In 2004 Kansas Board of Education elections gave religious conservatives a majority and, influenced by the Discovery Institute, they arranged the Kansas evolution hearings. On August 9, 2005, the Kansas State Board of Education drafted new "science standards that require critical analysis of evolution – including scientific evidence refuting the theory,"[16] which opponents analysed as effectively stating that intelligent design should be taught.[17] The new standards also provide a definition of science that does not preclude supernatural explanations, and were approved by a 6-4 vote on November 8, 2005 – the same day, interestingly, on which the Dover school board members were voted out (see above).






So yes, though they were overturned, the point is this was being taught in a classroom, hotshot. There is no raving christian right trying to get things taught in a classroom, except that every few years, Georgia, Kansas and Illinois have to have a serious debate about where God belongs in classrooms. And they have, on several occasions, decided to teach ID as a substitute to science. So there ARE people pushing this through in certain parts of the country.

You want to know -WHY- they can't make it stick? Because there are people educated on the subject and taking it on headfirst when it rears its ugly head.

People who don't confuse Creation Science with creationism, for instance, sir. You're not needed here. All you've done is basically say "NO ONE SHOULD TALK ABOUT THIS" and dig your head in the sand.

There's nowhere I can't reach.


John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD.

Watts
"Thieves, Robbers, Politicians!"


Member 639

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Old Nov 17, 2007, 04:54 AM Local time: Nov 17, 2007, 02:54 AM #99 of 270
The point is that creation science is being touted as a legitimate science that kids are supposed to learn along side evolution. I have yet to see creation science evidence (unless it really is just a bible) or hypothesis (cause technically they're not even scientific theories) other than "god played with some playdoh."
Which only proves that people pass on their values. Or try to.

The Soviets taught their own brand of evolution to their children. It involved the evolution of giraffe's necks stretching together in socialist solidarity. It was based on pure scientific theory, not matter how much they twisted it for political ends. Didn't make it anymore ludicrous then I already made it sound.

So yes, though they were overturned, the point is this was being taught in a classroom, hotshot.
Not anymore. It was overturned. End of story.

(edit)

Oh wait, it will be upheld in any future case. That's the real end of the story.

How ya doing, buddy?

Last edited by Watts; Nov 17, 2007 at 04:57 AM.
No. Hard Pass.
Salty for Salt's Sake


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Old Nov 17, 2007, 05:04 AM Local time: Nov 17, 2007, 04:04 AM 1 #100 of 270
Yes, because if we all stop paying attention to it and laugh it off, saying education and science are unnecessary things to defend THAT'S the best way to do it. Because complacency, that's the best answer!

You're not terribly bright, son. Peddle yourself elsewhere. Both sides of this debate think you're a prat.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?


John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD.

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