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Saddam Hussein to receive death penalty
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guyinrubbersuit
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Old Nov 5, 2006, 08:25 PM Local time: Nov 5, 2006, 06:25 PM #26 of 175
Originally Posted by SCHNEE-1
So now he can be a martyr, that's good.

I doubt that. The struggle in Iraq is a power one and people have forgotten him.


I'm not for the death penalty and quite honestly, the trial was a fucking joke.

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Night Phoenix
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Old Nov 5, 2006, 08:28 PM Local time: Nov 5, 2006, 08:28 PM #27 of 175
So were the Nuremburg Trials after World War II, but I don't hear you people complaining about that.

If you win the war, you get to hold trials for people by saying they violated laws that you created after the fact and execute them. It's all a formality. It'd be a lot easier to just shoot them on the battlefield than go through all the formalities.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
Crash "Long-Winded Wrong Answer" Landon
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Old Nov 5, 2006, 09:03 PM #28 of 175
Except, technically, we haven't won the war in Iraq. We're just kicking around the sand right now, waiting for more absolute orders than "stay the course".

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Bradylama
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Old Nov 5, 2006, 09:17 PM Local time: Nov 5, 2006, 09:17 PM #29 of 175
We won enough to hold phony trials, and that's all that really matters in the end. Women. Am I right fellas?

I was speaking idiomatically.
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Old Nov 5, 2006, 09:27 PM Local time: Nov 6, 2006, 02:27 AM #30 of 175
I wonder how long it'll be before this latest judge gets assassinated? He must be shitting himself right now after giving that verdict.

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Gechmir
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Old Nov 5, 2006, 11:28 PM Local time: Nov 5, 2006, 11:28 PM #31 of 175
Originally Posted by Crash Landon
Except, technically, we haven't won the war in Iraq. We're just kicking around the sand right now, waiting for more absolute orders than "stay the course".
Well, the war on Iraq was (essentially) won when we took Baghdad and the conventional army stopped opposing us. This is a counterinsurgency operation we're stuck in. We're training Iraqi military, not fighting 'em.

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Night Phoenix
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Old Nov 5, 2006, 11:28 PM Local time: Nov 5, 2006, 11:28 PM #32 of 175
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Except, technically, we haven't won the war in Iraq.
Depends on what you mean by 'winning.'

If by winning you mean that we destroyed the Iraqi Army and deposed its leadership, yes, we've won.

If by winning you mean that we turned Iraq into the shining beacon of Democracy that is the envy of the rest of the Arab world, then, no, we haven't won - yet.

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no


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Old Nov 5, 2006, 11:40 PM Local time: Nov 5, 2006, 08:40 PM #33 of 175
And never will - ever.

Jam it back in, in the dark.
aikawarazu
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Old Nov 6, 2006, 04:59 AM Local time: Nov 6, 2006, 01:59 AM #34 of 175
Originally Posted by Capo
And never will - ever.
i'd like to respond to this comment...

while there may have been no victory in iraq inasmuch as the country is a stable place with the us government's seal-of-approval, there has been a victory on the side of the "allies." that is to say: a despot WAS deposed, a newer government has been (begun to have been, anyway) set up, and that country has even put its former tyrant on trial. these are for the most part positive changes in that they are helping a country that was in an ambiguous-at-best place before this "war."

however, when it comes to victory in the sense of completion and achieving of initial goals... i'm not sure that is a possibility. achieving the initial goals is pretty much impossible due to the fact that the initial goals (at least those presented to the public by the US gov't) are unachievable. we can't eliminate WMDs that don't exist, we can't cut back support that wasn't being given by the iraqis to al qaeda, and we can't force a new form of government on an entire people with their full cooperation and excitement.
victory as completion is basically impossible because completing the creation of a government simply doesn't happen. the US has been around for more than 200 years and we've still got PLENTY of kinks in our system. also, there will always be rebels and insurgents who will act radically, and right now this war is mostly fighting them. the problem is, they aren't a good target to fight in the same way terrorists are difficult to target - they don't necessarily act cohesively, they often are more than willing to die for their cause, and their major goal is to stall their enemy (which is a goal achieved simply by having an enemy engaged).

so, in those respects, we never will have a victory. and i agree with Capo. however, in the way that Gechmir was describing it, we have had a victory. but i guess my main point is that having this (more technical) victory, and now having successfully tried and convicted and sentenced the former tyrant of the country we invaded ---- what's left to do there considering the fact that a more satisfying victory, like the one i described above, is essentially unreachable?

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Nictusempra
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Old Nov 6, 2006, 05:43 AM Local time: Nov 6, 2006, 05:43 AM #35 of 175
Quote:
what's left to do there considering the fact that a more satisfying victory, like the one i described above, is essentially unreachable?
Hold on and try to dream up a solution that doesn't involve Iran becoming the dominant influence on Iran after we're gone.

Of course, that seems remarkably unlikely at this stage, and god knows the current administration hasn't a clue how to prevent that. So they're keeping the boots on the ground, and American soldiers continue to die in what's amounting to a stalling tactic.


As for Saddam: who cares. This was a largely foregone conclusion, and I can't imagine much of anyone will be mourning or lamenting his death.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Last edited by Nictusempra; Nov 6, 2006 at 05:46 AM.
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Old Nov 6, 2006, 07:43 AM Local time: Nov 6, 2006, 12:43 PM #36 of 175
There is no victory where massive military operations are still on going, where troops are still being murdered daily by the dissolved Iraqi army that hides amongst the population and uses guerilla tactics. Saddam was deposed and caught, but I see no military victory at all.

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Chibi Neko
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Old Nov 6, 2006, 07:56 AM Local time: Nov 6, 2006, 09:26 AM #37 of 175
Originally Posted by MetheGelfling
Really? What is?

Death by hanging. Wonder if it'll be public.
I am not one to say which country is the most librial, but I can tell you that Iraq is not. As far as a public hanging is concerned, I have no clue. Wither it would be public or not would not suprise me either way... personally I do not think a public hanging would be a good idea, the verdict is already receiving
mixed criticism and violence could be a result. A public hanging could attract supporters from both sides and cause a uproar.

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Bradylama
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Old Nov 6, 2006, 09:22 AM Local time: Nov 6, 2006, 09:22 AM #38 of 175
Originally Posted by Ulysses
There is no victory where massive military operations are still on going, where troops are still being murdered daily by the dissolved Iraqi army that hides amongst the population and uses guerilla tactics. Saddam was deposed and caught, but I see no military victory at all.
As long as you're done trying to sound insightful, you can still "win" without having victory. Hamlet won, for instance. So did Robert E. Lee, countless times.

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Gechmir
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Old Nov 6, 2006, 09:50 AM Local time: Nov 6, 2006, 09:50 AM #39 of 175
Originally Posted by Capo
And never will - ever.
I wouldn't say it's unreachable... The Philippines were followed by a twelve-year counterinsurgency program. Sure, that was at the dawning of the 20th century, but there is no perfectly simple way to fight an army that lacks uniforms, per se. It's winnable, but it'll take a lot of time. And the American population is very impatient on most things.

With a cut-and-run tactic always in display, nothing will get done. Hate to quote the beaten-to-death saying, but stay the course.

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Old Nov 6, 2006, 01:05 PM Local time: Nov 6, 2006, 12:05 PM #40 of 175
Originally Posted by Chibi Neko
I am not one to say which country is the most librial, but I can tell you that Iraq is not.
Sorry dude, I was being totally sarcastic.

Originally Posted by Capo
And never will - ever.
We started the war in Iraq in 2003 and it's now the end of 06. So it's been 3 years since the inital conflict and occupation. Here's something to consider...

Look at Japan during WWII. They start the fight on Dec 7, 1941, and after years of war and rebuilding, we don't finally exit a new soverign democratized Japan until April 28, 1952. It only took us 3 years to get them to surrender, but the rebuilding process cost nearly a million US dollars a day (which was a shitload in the 40s) and lasted for an additional 8 years. We had 350,000 troops occupying Japan for that time. Even after the turnover we continued to occupy Okinawa until 72'.

The rebuilding of a state including a complete political culture overhaul takes time, but as with the example of Japan, it can be worth the investment. Now Japan is a powerful ally and is one of the most prosperous states on the globe. Granted Iraq is a completely different situation, but we've only been there for 3 years while we were patient enough to rebuild Japan for 10.

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Old Nov 6, 2006, 02:21 PM Local time: Nov 6, 2006, 07:21 PM #41 of 175
OK, i'll admit you can be victorious in a battle (even several battles like Lee), while losing the war overall. Ultimately, it's the war that matters the most. In the case of Iraq, the jury is still out on that one.

Jam it back in, in the dark.
Bradylama
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Old Nov 6, 2006, 03:10 PM Local time: Nov 6, 2006, 03:10 PM #42 of 175
HUP DUP DURRR

The jury is still out, but that's not the point. The point is we've won enough to help the Iraqis assemble a kangaroo court, and there's not shit anybody can do about it.

Quote:
The rebuilding of a state including a complete political culture overhaul takes time, but as with the example of Japan, it can be worth the investment.
The key ingredient in the success of that investment, however, was cooperation. We invested in the Phillipines and that country is still in the shit.

Saying that it'll "take time" will not be enough for people that are monitoring these events, and understand how many losses of personnel and materiel are stacking up.

The Japanese weren't hiding in pits ready to strike the arming pin for an unexploded bomb as tanks rolled over them during the occupation.

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Throwdown
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Old Nov 6, 2006, 06:15 PM #43 of 175
I might be out on a limb but my government class was talking about this and I was wonder what happened to his brothers.

This will probably be the last time I post in the polititcal place wont it?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.


I just wanna make it to forty two so I can feel just in every grouchy thing I say or do.
Bradylama
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Old Nov 6, 2006, 06:23 PM Local time: Nov 6, 2006, 06:23 PM #44 of 175
I don't see why. It's a legitimate question and isn't too far off-topic. Other than your poor wording there's nothing inherently wrong with your post.

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Old Nov 6, 2006, 06:27 PM Local time: Nov 6, 2006, 06:27 PM #45 of 175
The ONLY reason why the United States will lose in Iraq is because of people demanding that we essentially give up.

If we stay and fight, we will win, hands down, every time. It's not a matter of ability, it's a matter of will and quite simply, the civillian population of the United States and half of its population doesn't have the will to do what it takes to win in Iraq.

I was speaking idiomatically.
Phoque le PQ
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Old Nov 6, 2006, 07:50 PM #46 of 175
Originally Posted by Bradylama

The Japanese weren't hiding in pits ready to strike the arming pin for an unexploded bomb as tanks rolled over them during the occupation.
also, don't forget that japan had SOME democratic experience. Of course, I don't know much about it, so I can,t tell how really democratic it was...

Quote:
If by winning you mean that we turned Iraq into the shining beacon of Democracy that is the envy of the rest of the Arab world, then, no, we haven't won - yet
the thing is, however laic (non religious praticers?) Iraq was, it is still in a region where western democracy (with all the rights that come with it) hasn't been implemented. Bringing by force can only fail... unless the whole region is invaded. But then, it will only breed more terrorists

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
Meth
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Old Nov 6, 2006, 08:30 PM Local time: Nov 6, 2006, 07:30 PM #47 of 175
Originally Posted by Phoque le PQ
also, don't forget that japan had SOME democratic experience. Of course, I don't know much about it, so I can,t tell how really democratic it was...
I love posters like this in here. Basically you stated something, but then said, "Of course, I don't know much about it..." So why did you even state that japan had some democratic experience to begin with? If you know that you don't know what you're talking about, then why add anything?

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Old Nov 6, 2006, 08:38 PM Local time: Nov 6, 2006, 06:38 PM #48 of 175
Originally Posted by Night Phoenix
The ONLY reason why the United States will lose in Iraq is because of people demanding that we essentially give up.

If we stay and fight, we will win, hands down, every time. It's not a matter of ability, it's a matter of will and quite simply, the civillian population of the United States and half of its population doesn't have the will to do what it takes to win in Iraq.
What is your definition of winning in this instance?

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Nehmi
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Old Nov 6, 2006, 08:48 PM Local time: Nov 6, 2006, 08:48 PM #49 of 175
Originally Posted by BlueMikey
What is your definition of winning in this instance?
The War is won when either all the coalition forces there are dead, or when all the Iraqi there are dead. Considering the rate at which Iraqis are coming up dead, I'd say we're winning.

Jam it back in, in the dark.
Sarag
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Old Nov 7, 2006, 12:33 AM #50 of 175
Originally Posted by Night Phoenix
The ONLY reason why the United States will lose in Iraq is because of people demanding that we essentially give up.

If we stay and fight, we will win, hands down, every time. It's not a matter of ability, it's a matter of will and quite simply, the civillian population of the United States and half of its population doesn't have the will to do what it takes to win in Iraq.
I like how you don't know anything about war.

How do you define victory, in this case? Does it involve glowing green parking lots?

edit: I like how I just said what Mikey did. Way to not read the rest of the replies.

There's nowhere I can't reach.
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