For or against?

So why was my post deleted? It was a cynical argument, yeah, but still an argument.

I don't see why my contribution to this thread warrants deletion while this

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SEE DEVO IS A SANE PERSON!!! WHY CAN'T ALL THE GUN NUTS UNDERSTAND THAT?!?

is considered to be fine.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I'm just wondering. Do you suppose the crimes in your area are random crimes or are they perhaps more often premeditated crimes with specific targets? In other words, would you really get screwed with if you didn't screw with anyone?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Hmm...maybe not. And if I didn't have kids I might risk it, you know, for the sake of scientific research.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Heh, I'm just saying. Because around here, I've sometimes considered walking around with a baseball bat just to deter possible assailants, but I would think that in the boonies, if someone takes the effort to travel all the way to your house, they must at least know you and if they liked you, well, they'd probably find someone else to rob.

I was speaking idiomatically.

But Minion, what if someone followed me home to rape me? Is that such a stretch? Lots of people in my area know that my husband has been deployed for a while, and even if they didn't, it's not all that unheard of for some insane rapist to follow a woman home and rape and sometimes kill her.

Although I will admit that we've had this gun since we first got married. Also, I was raised in a home with guns, so it's something I don't even think about. It just seems like the logical thing to do to have a gun in your home for protection.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Minion

Some people are not interested in harming or killing anyone. Poverty leads to desparation, but not necessarily to homicidal tendancies. There's a good chance that the guy who is stealing your stuff has a hard time getting by in life and just needs to make a quick buck for whatever reason.

I'm not saying it's right for him to do that, but he doesn't deserve to die.

I've been poor and homeless before, Minion, so don't give me shit. There are places you can get a warm bed at night and a hot meal in the day. Besides the fact that there are many food banks (churches) that offer free food to the poor when they can't afford to feed themselves. So I consider what you said be an excuse, something I will not accept as a reason why they are stealing my possessions .

This isn't to say I am just going to shoot someone for stepping into my home illegally. The only time it is justifiable to shoot an intruder is if they are attacking you or point a firearm at you. Otherwise I'd just corner the guy and make him lay down on his face while I hog tie him at gun point while I wait for the cops to show up and take this person away.

Rock: I don't know what you are talking about your post being deleted...

FELIPE NO

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But Minion, what if someone followed me home to rape me?

Well okay. Do you keep a gun in your glove compartment, too? You should, otherwise when you get out of the car, the guy will probably outrun you and rape you anyway.

The point is, yes, all this stuff happens. But then, a lot of things that we never prepare for are possible. What's the number 1 killer in this country? It's not thieves or rapists; it's heart failure. How many people (espeically in the South) do anything to prevent that? It's just a question of values. These people allegedly care so much about taking care of themselves, but ironically ignore the things that are most likely to kill them, like poor dieting and lack of exercise and smoking.

Double Post:

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I've been poor and homeless before, Minion, so don't give me shit.

So, every homeless man's situation is exactly the same as yours and if you could handle it so could they? There are places where you can get food, but not enough of them and there are a lot of homeless people. Many of them die every year. Why is this, if it's so easy for them to take care of themselves?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Yeah well, Devolution, I am well aware of the fact that in total numbers, the United States of America has - surprisingly enough - a higher crime rate than the Vatican or Vanuatu... I was talking about the amount of crime per inhabitant, and that's a statistic you guys still rock.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Minion their situation doesn't have to be the same as mine, but just because they choose to be out there doesn't make it right for them to steal, nor will it make me feel any pity for these people when they try and steal my things. They made the decision to come into my home, they will pay the concequences of their actions for invading my home.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Devo

We have more urban centers than any given European nation, >=(. And within these urban centers is a more diverse population than most nations. You do know crime also arises from conflict not just economics?

Yes you have a lot of urban centers especially in Central America :lolsign:

Look, the United States is like 25 times larger than Germany, but has only three times more inhabitants so what about you don't tell me anything about urbanity?

And don't even try to start with this ethnical shit, we have niggers and jews over here, too.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

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but just because they choose to be out there

Right. People live in the streets and risk their lives stealing other people's junk because it's so much more glamorous than having a decent job and being able to afford things.

You didn't really answer my question. Why can't some of them get it together? Are there enough resources out there for ALL of the homeless in this country?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Devo

United States has 50 states, figure it out bucko.

And this statement is helpful in which way?

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Originally Posted by Musharraf

And don't even try to start with this ethnical shit, we have niggers and jews over here, too.

Yeah, those roving Jewish street gangs are a big problem.

How big are the black populations in german cities? How about the meth problem among white trash Germans?

The crime problem isn't caused by guns, but they do increase it. Banning guns would be useless, as there are too many out there anyway. Better enforcing of the laws and actually keeping scum locked up and executing those who need it, in a timely fashion, would do more to lower the problem.

Instead of a background check on a gun buyer, it would sure be nice if there could be a test to determine the buyers dumbass quotion. No, I'm sorry, you are way to stupid to be buying a gun.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Because without guns people basically could not kill each other and would have no desire to do so anyway.

FELIPE NO

I'm still going by the logic that less guns mean less crime. How can you even refute this? I mean, criminals aren't exactly born as criminals and you can't really predict who becomes a criminal. It might just as well be this Gumby person who claims he needs a shitload of guns to "protect himself".

What kind of a stupid argument is saying that "criminals" will be getting their guns illegally nonetheless!? I'm willing to bet that most of these killings have been carried out with legally purchased and owned weaponry.

With more guns being publically available, the probability of abuse is much higher than in a society with strict gun control.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Minion

Because without guns people basically could not kill each other and would have no desire to do so anyway.

I wouldn't quite agree on the bit about the desire but there's a quote from Frank Miller that pretty much nailed the ramifications of a society with broad access to firearms:

"A gun is a coward's weapon, a liar's weapon. We kill too often because we made it too easy, sparing ourselves the mess and the work."

Jam it back in, in the dark.

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Do any of you actually live in dangerous neighbourhoods?

There's lots of black people, if that's what you mean.

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u have a lot of urban centers especially in Central America

And Central America has a significant crime problem. Jamaica, I believe, has only one urban center, yet they have one of the highest murder rates in the world.

The fact of the matter is that none of us are criminologists. Determining whether or not the presence of guns increases crime is impossible, yet we can statistically establish that an absence of guns does not eliminate crime, or criminal intent.

In fact, we've had crimes since we've had laws. Murders used to be commited primarily with knives and swords. Does the multiple use of a dagger justify its banning? Some ancient civilizations would say so, but now that we have guns, versatility is all of a sudden an important element.

And what of bows? You could use them to hang your dry-cleaning, but how many uses for them involved something outside of maiming and killing a human being?

Of course, in ancient times, "gun control" was a simple matter of production. Your average Joe didn't have access to a furnace, or advanced smithy. Nor could he even afford its products. Rebellion was practically impossible without monetary backing, or an industrial base, and those rebellions that succeeded were committed to the selfish wishes of individuals or oligarchies.

There was never really a true "People's Rebellion" until the advent of the gun. There have never been free societies before the gun. The gun, as they say, is the Great Equalizer, and the base threat of force it provides is what, I feel, makes the right to bear arms so important. It forces law to remain legitimate, it forces governments into serving their people.

Is owning an AK any different from owning a shotgun? Does a 30 round magazine make it any easier for me to kill people? What if I just carried a lot of guns?

Then again, I believe that criminalizing the possession of anything is ridiculous, since it's impossible to determine intent until use. I am, after all, some dumb Libertarian.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Rock

I'm still going by the logic that less guns mean less crime. How can you even refute this? I mean, criminals aren't exactly born as criminals and you can't really predict who becomes a criminal. It might just as well be this Gumby person who claims he needs a shitload of guns to "protect himself".

What kind of a stupid argument is saying that "criminals" will be getting their guns illegally nonetheless!? I'm willing to bet that most of these killings have been carried out with legally purchased and owned weaponry.

With more guns being publically available, the probability of abuse is much higher than in a society with strict gun control.

I suggest you do some research before you come back, you seem to be rather misinformed.

Minion: If you think people will not kill each other when there is a lack of firearms you are lacking a gasp of reality because if that were true countries that banned the use of firearms would have ZERO murders, but the simple fact is that isn't true.

Bradylama: I have a quote for you, since you seem to have your head screwed on straight. "An armed man is a citizen: an unarmed man is a subject." - Unknown

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

It's called a joke. I know it's confusing because I am arguing both sides (since I take issue with some points raised by both sides), but I thought my tone was pretty obviously sarcastic.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by AliceNWondrland

what if someone followed me home to rape me? Is that such a stretch? Lots of people in my area know that my husband has been deployed for a while, and even if they didn't, it's not all that unheard of for some insane rapist to follow a woman home and rape and sometimes kill her.

What if my aunt had balls... gah nevermind.

Alice, chances are really good that a gun won't help you prevent or stop a rape. Unless you pay attention to your surroundings, a rapist can approach you from behind and stick a knife to your throat. That's typically how rapes occur. At this point no gun is going to help you. What will help you is a little knowledge of self defense. Ask your husband for a little self defense training. They still teach all military recruits some basic Judo moves.

Rapists, like most criminals typically go easy targets. So don't make yourself an easy target yeah? Don't get caught out and alone late at night. Don't loiter around that dark alley. Finally, if you're caught in that situation don't scream "RAPE!" scream "FIRE!!!!" Somebody's more likely to come assist. It's as easy as that.

Last, a criminal following you home is just some paranoid fantasy out of a movie. Or a home security system commercial. Do you know which houses in your neighborhood contain guns? Probably not. Does a criminal? Definitely not. Why risk it if you're going after easy targets?

Originally Posted by Bradylama

Is owning an AK any different from owning a shotgun? Does a 30 round magazine make it any easier for me to kill people? What if I just carried a lot of guns?.

Then again, I believe that criminalizing the possession of anything is ridiculous, since it's impossible to determine intent until use. I am, after all, some dumb Libertarian.

Yes. It's very different. Because at that point you now out-gun every law enforcement officer minus a SWAT team. Unlike the German Politzer who carries around SMGs, American police officers are inadequately equipped.

I can agree with you on your second point. But I'm a stupid libertarian too.

I was speaking idiomatically.

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The following two paragraphs came first and second in the "worst analogy of all time" contest I've been running.

Actually I think the analogy is near perfect. Both Cars and Guns are mechanical devices that when used improperly or not treated with respect can become VERY deadly. There are millions of guns in this country. There are also millions of cars in this country. The funny thing is that more people die in car wrecks than in gun fights... so maybe we should outlaw private ownership of motor vehicles?

The airbag/handgun analogy isn't quite as good, but it's still works. Both can be life savers in an emergancy situation, both are something you hope you'll never need to use, but both are something good to have, just in case the worst should happen...

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Gun are also built for a primary purpose: killing humans! Other uses since discrovered include: oh wait none, guns are only good at destroying life.

Thats funny, I use my guns for lots of things, other than killing people...

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News: unarmed people don't get shot at.

I call bullshit on this one.

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So people come invade your home, big deal. they take your stuff, you call the cops, the cops catch them and insurance replaces all your valubles. Drama over. Would you prefer to have a leathal gun battle in your own home? Fuck your pride.

Pride has nothing to do with it. What if Mr. Bad Guy wants more than just your TV? What if he wants to rape your girlfriend/wife/mom/sister/daughter? You have no idea why he's in your house, and giving him the benifit of the dout isn't too smart if you ask me...

I mentioned this in the firearms topic in general disscussion, but I'll say it again here. When you're out on the streets, using a gun to defend yourself should be your VERY LAST RESORT. You should run if possible and avoid confrontation. BUT, when someone breaks into your home, things change. You have to assume that the invader is out to harm you and your family. I wouldn't hesitate to kill a home invader, not for one second.

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owever I don't think you should be allowed to buy assault rifles such as an AK-47 publicly without at the very least a through background check.

I think the AK-47 argument is a weak one. As others have pointed out, I can kill you just as dead with a pistol or a shotgun, so what differance does it make?

As for the background check, I agree with you, and in fact, to buy ANY gun, you do have to have a background check. There is a loop-hole in the law however that I feel needs to be closed: Used Guns. If I buy a gun, I have to have a background check. But say after a few years I decide to sell that gun, I can sell it to anyone without doing a backgrond check on them. I think you should have to prefrom a background check anytime a firearm changes ownership, not just when you buy one new from the dealers...

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Just who are you "protecting" yourself from that requires that much firepower?

The goverment. I bet the Jews would have loved to have had AKs when the Nazis came knocking on their doors...

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Why is everyone so damn paranoid about being maimed/shot/killed anyway?

Because, sadly, in the real world bad things can happen to good people.

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Ok, first of all, knowing that one crime rate is going down, and the other going up doesn't say anything about how big they are in relationship to each other. Also, try to do some more research on what kind of crimes you are talking about, not all involve guns.

I'm talking about violent crime rate, that includes murder, assualt, and rape.

Also, I'm not sure I get your point. Are you saying that a crime has to involve a gun to be considered a crime? So it's okay if I kill you with bow or sword, but not a gun?

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There's a good chance that the guy who is stealing your stuff has a hard time getting by in life and just needs to make a quick buck for whatever reason.

So what? Alot of people have a hard time, that doesn't mean it's okay to break into someones house.

Minion, you seem that think that criminals are really a bunch of nice guys at heart, that they're simply mis-understood. I don't buy that...

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The point is, yes, all this stuff happens. But then, a lot of things that we never prepare for are possible. What's the number 1 killer in this country? It's not thieves or rapists; it's heart failure. How many people (espeically in the South) do anything to prevent that? It's just a question of values. These people allegedly care so much about taking care of themselves, but ironically ignore the things that are most likely to kill them, like poor dieting and lack of exercise and smoking.

What are you trying to say here, that all gun owners are fat chain-smokers? LOL...

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Yeah well, Devolution, I am well aware of the fact that in total numbers, the United States of America has - surprisingly enough - a higher crime rate than the Vatican or Vanuatu... I was talking about the amount of crime per inhabitant, and that's a statistic you guys still rock.

I'd like to see some actual numbers here. I don't think that the US has as high a crime rate per person as what most people seem to think it does...

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Instead of a background check on a gun buyer, it would sure be nice if there could be a test to determine the buyers dumbass quotion. No, I'm sorry, you are way to stupid to be buying a gun.

I wish there were some sort of "gun education" in public schools. We teach kids how to be safe with sex, but not with guns... whats up with that?

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Because without guns people basically could not kill each other and would have no desire to do so anyway.

I can only assume that you're joking... crime (including murder) has been around long before firearms...

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I'm still going by the logic that less guns mean less crime. How can you even refute this?

I can refute that. It's simple. Guns don't cause crime. They are simple objects. Sometimes guns are used in crimes, but they are never the cause of the crime. I'm suprized that more people don't understand this...

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What kind of a stupid argument is saying that "criminals" will be getting their guns illegally nonetheless!?

Criminals, by definiton, don't obey the law. So what makes you think that they'll obey gun laws?

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"A gun is a coward's weapon, a liar's weapon. We kill too often because we made it too easy, sparing ourselves the mess and the work."

I believe that you are either justified in killing someone, or you aren't. The weapon that you use is irrelavlent...

Again, I don't understand this line of thought, that it's "honorable" to kill someone with a blade, but "cowardly" to do the same thing with a bullet... the end result is the same, so what differance does it make?

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Then again, I believe that criminalizing the possession of anything is ridiculous, since it's impossible to determine intent until use. I am, after all, some dumb Libertarian.

I agree, and I'm actually thinking about changing my offical political party to Libertarian myself, LOL...

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Finally, if you're caught in that situation don't scream "RAPE!" scream "FIRE!!!!" Somebody's more likely to come assist.

I'm not sure if thats true or not, but if it is, it's very sad...

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When I was in middle school they offered a gun safety coarse and at the end of it I received a gun safety card... before I left that middle school the program was coming to an end. This is what happens when you have people in charge of a school who are Anti-gun; the basics involved in using a firearm are not taught to our children.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by gumby

the basics involved in using a firearm are not taught to our children.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

How ya doing, buddy?

It is a bad thing. It's bad because kids that have no fucking idea what they're doing sometimes get their hands on guns. There'd be fewer "accidents" if kids were told how to properly handle a firearm...

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Sometimes I'm still a little surprised at some things due to my not being from the US. Here it'd be laughable to teach kid's gun safety, or how to shoot etc. as a matter of course in public school. But apparently it's just the opposite wherever David and Gumby are..

On the subject of killing intruders because they are 'the bad guys': There are degrees to being a bad person or criminal. I think Minion's point is that just because someone will steal (bad), does not mean that they will rape/murder (more bad). So the argument that they *might* do worse than steal, so you ought to kill 'em, y'know, just in case, sounds a bit harsh to me. Shoplifters aren't executed for a reason, and so on.

On the subject of availability of firearms: Yeah, weapons are easily bought illegaly. My argument against this, is that if every joe sixpack didn't buy gun(s), then there would be a whole hell of a lot less made. A whole hell of a lot less stolen/lost/resold illegaly. Those illegaly obtained weapons have to come from somewhere, and they are only made because there is a legal demand for them.

On the subject of 'guns don't kill people': If you are in a confrontation, and someone pulls a weapon it escalates to situation. What might have been a fist fight turns into a killing. So one's response of carrying a weapon, and pulling it when they are 'in trouble' has a great chance of increasing their risk in that situation. I've been in this kind of situation before, and what was a manageable situation got immediately out of control because someone wanted to pull a weapon.

And just so we are clear, I don't think that guns should be banned. I think that the population should think a little more clearly about why they are buying and using them. I hear an awful lot of excuses about owning them, maybe instead of excusing the behaviour you might examine for yourself why you 'need' them.

Also, what other uses for your guns have you found? I'm reminded of Homer trying to get a cat out of the tree... You cook with them? Clean with them? Seriously, as far as I know, they only do one thing, put a hole in whatever you shoot 'em at. Please elaborate on all the other practicle things you do?

There's nowhere I can't reach.