Why is the murder rate in the US so high?

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I'm not pretending that felons don't have means to obtain firearms. Very few gun murders are committed with guns that are licensed to the killer, I'd imagine. But that's no reason to make it easy for everyone to pick up a gun.

It's pretty simple to get a gun illegally regardless of the laws. The guns just have to disappear from the system. They're either "stolen" and have the serial numbers filed off, or they're produced in black market shops.

So long as guns are ubiquitous, there will also be a lot of illegal firearms floating around. You can't stop it short of draconian measures that shouldn't have to be put up with.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I wasn't so much as going for the goal of stopping illegally obtained firearms (although in Indiana there's almost no such thing) as I reversing the current situation here (where it's easier to get a gun legally than illegally).

Looking around though it seems Indiana is pretty unique in this boat as far as lax gun laws =/. I thought the situation was same everywhere.

How ya doing, buddy?

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(where it's easier to get a gun legally than illegally)

Shouldn't this be considered a good thing? If legally owned firearms were being used in crimes that'd make them easier to track.

I think you're confusing the issue of how guns are acquired illegally in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Bradylama

Shouldn't this be considered a good thing? If legally owned firearms were being used in crimes that'd make them easier to track.

I think you're confusing the issue of how guns are acquired illegally in the first place.

Pardon me being blunt, but I think Link's just unhappy with the "right to arm bears" (pun intended) because of the whole easiness in getting a firearm.

I still stand on my opinion that it doesn't matter if you force people to take mental tests and screen their pee for birth defects, or whatever crazy thing to inhibt people from trying to get a gun, If you want to kill someone, you are going to, no matter if you get a gun, a knife or a stone, as someone said on the thread, firearms are just means to acomplish something, The first primitive firearms were invented around 1000 AD, but man is killing eachother since the dawn of time.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by DarkLink2135

Then like I said, it definitely varies from state to state.

I agree with Phoenix though in that our culture is a lot more violent than other cultures.

I usually laugh at how Europe is a bunch of pansies when it comes to movie violence, and how the US cringes at the mention of the word 'sex'. But in reality I'd say a lenient attitude towards sex is a helluva lot more healthy for everyone than a lenient attitude towards violence.

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Just for anyone who is interested (and hopefully this will help explain some of my attitudes about gun laws):

Indiana Gun Laws:

Rifles and Shotguns

* Permit to purchase rifles and shotguns? No.
* Registration of rifles and shotguns? No.
* Licensing of owners of rifles and shotguns? No.
* Permit to carry rifles and shotguns? No.

Handguns

* Permit to purchase handgun? No.
* Registration of handguns? No.
* Licensing of owners of handguns? No.
* Permit to carry handguns? Yes.

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In addition, we've got a lifetime handgun permit, you can buy any gun you want just by showing up at a gun show, no background checks, permits, or anything needed. We used to have a seven day waiting period before you could buy a firearm, but that was done away with in the late 1990's. You have to go through a Federal background check, but only a state background check for handguns. This means shotguns, rifles, and most assault weapons not only require no permit or license to carry, you aren't checked at a state level for them (which I believe is a lot more efficient than Federal checks).

The only thing I'm glad Indiana does have is the law that lets you shoot trespassers on sight when you feel you are threatened. The whole "your home is your castle" doctrine-law-thingy.

I don't know where you live but here, if you want a gun, even a handgun, it's a piece of cake.

OK. If I get what your saying, Indiana makes it very easy to get a gun.

Crime in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Indiana - 5.1 homicide

It looks here like Indiana is on the safer end of the spectrum. Ranked 30/50, yet gun control is very legal. In a very small example it looks like Guns DONT have a large impact on murder. On the other hand one can argue that not much goes on in Indiana. Then again, Indianapolis had on average, 6x as many murders in 1998 than other countries...

Back to why we're all fucked...

I agree with what some of the above posters said. Americans are very work inclined, stressed, and exposed to some *sweet* violence. They also aren't as luvvy duvvy with members of the community like they are in other parts of the world (excluding Boaz, Alabama) so taking someones life wouldn't be as personal.

I know in France, they kiss everyone on the check whenever they meet, even if they are strangers. Go into a dorm room and try that here.

Crime in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Most murders are among young men, 200-27 *I think*. 52.1% are black males, and most (87%) or murders are intraracial.

I'm surprised no one mentioned how immature the kids are in the United States (I consider kids 0-21, but the immaturity can easily, and often will, go beyond 21). Highs schools lack discipline sooo much, the kids do what they want. They get their cars and freedom, and still do what they want. They speed and crash. They drink and drive. They get girls pregnant without caring. They barely do schoolwork and still graduate with honors. They drink diet pepsi....the list goes on

I'm not saying kids aren't immature all over the world, but it's much worse in the United States. I've been to a few places in Europe, and the kids almost seem boring, because they act like adults. Like a party for them is sitting around talking about politics, sipping wine and occasionally dancing. They don't take risks at all. They are so mature at such a young age it's like WTF!!

@DARKLINK

I think it's stupid too, how we ban sex but flaunt violence. MAKES NO SENSE.

I don't know about that law for trespassers. I mean, self defense should be enough, no? What if you want to frame someone? Like, someone from work.

Hey man, come on over for some coffee after work.

OK.

This is my home.

*Shotgun to the dome*

officers he was trespassing!!

How ya doing, buddy?

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I don't know about that law for trespassers. I mean, self defense should be enough, no? What if you want to frame someone? Like, someone from work.

Hey man, come on over for some coffee after work.

OK.

This is my home.

*Shotgun to the dome*

officers he was trespassing!!

As anyone who's ever watched The Simpsons could tell you, it doesn't work if you invite them.

FELIPE NO

@Brady:
I guess I can see your point here. If gun crimes are going to be committed, its easier to have them solved when the gun used can be traced. I still don't think it's sane to allow such easy obtainment of said firearms. I've got a history of epilepsy & tourettes syndrome, and while I've had no symptoms of either for the past 8 or so years, I don't need to show that. I've got two pretty serious mental disorders that have both been professionally diagnosed, that would make me a potential liability. The way they mix together means they usually trigger when I'm angry, amplifying those emotions and making me unnaturally strong. Not a good thing if I want to go out and get a firearm.

(I just re-read that and lol...no I don't turn green as well. Probably has something to do with massively increased adrenaline flow.)

I don't need to show proof that I no longer suffer from the symptoms. I can just fill out the forms and get one.

Ideally I guess you would want a situation where there's a proper balance in the difficulty for a law-abiding citizen to get a gun. I definitely don't think Indiana has that equilibrium.

@Vinjeux:

Exactly what I was saying. The only real law requires you to have a permit to carry a handgun outside of your legal place of residence. Most firearm dealers will require you to show a license in order to purchase - but you can show up to any gun show (of which there are plenty) to get around all gun laws.

I can't provide links as I believe I read this in my local newspaper, but I remember reading several stories where most gun crimes committed in neighboring states, most noticeably Illinois, were committed with guns bought in Indiana. Even if we aren't necessarily ourselves a higher liability, the ease with which one can get a gun here does make us a hazard to nearby states.

I also see the problem with the trespassing law. It has potential for abuse...but I also should not have to wait until me or my family could potentially be shot and killed by a trespasser to fire back.

And I DEFINITELY agree with your point about maturity & it's probable effects on America's high murder rate. I'm constantly irritated when I realize out of all my high school friends, me and maybe one other guy are the only two that have actually matured. I mean obviously I'm not completely an adult, I don't mean to say that, but still, I hope you get the gist of what I'm saying.

So many of the gun crimes here today seem to be related with a person who wasn't able to solve a simple problem in their life, they lacked the maturity to make good decisions. Nobody does enough to try and make you think about consequence before action. We are very much a "do now and make up for it later" culture.

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I am definitely a huge supporter of the right to bear arms, but at least here in Indiana, we aren't applying some common sense with that right. Screening isn't going to catch every last person, but at the very least we can eliminate some liabilities. You can't control the uncontrollable (someone steals a gun and then commits murder) so don't try - but at least try to control what you do have a handle on. There's no reason to place a gun in the hand of a person with severe bi-polar disorder, or with a history of violent crimes, etc.

EDIT:

I want to remark on what you said about people kissing each other on the cheek. In the USA the norm is to have a very wide bubble of personal space. You keep yourselves distant and away from other people, away from touch. People breach that bubble and you are very uncomfortable. I'd say perhaps that impersonable-ness in American culture has a small part to do with our higher murder rate as compared with countries that are very up close and personal with even complete strangers. It goes straight down to the nature vs nurture psychology.

Sorry if some of this is incoherent. My roommate is babbling on about something that I really don't care about making it hard to concentrate and I'm about ready to kill him. .

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Total number of murders is meaningless. The population of a tiny country like Liechtenstein, for example, can't even begin to match the number of nutcases the United States has. It is better to compare it as a percent of the country's population.

List of countries by homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to Wikipedia, in the latest data available, the United States isn't really that high - 5.9 murders per 100,000 inhabitants (2005), compared with El Salvador's 55.3 (2006).

I also postulate that the United States is more transparent than most other countries concerning murder rates. Look at the countries at the low end - it's not strictly comparable because of time lag. Consider as well the political ramnifications of admitting your country has a murder problem.

Thus, after doing two minutes of research, I don't believe the murder rate in the United States is that much of a cause for concern.

How ya doing, buddy?

Seems like the whole country is undergoing mass psychosis to me. Shootings at malls and schools are becoming hardly a blip on the mainstream media's ticker. Fear seems to be the order of the day, and you have to keep ratcheting it up to keep people subdued. The level of tension and anxiety is palpable; it comes off as a fog in the mornings and haze during the day.

The economy is going down the shitter, people are losing their homes, can't afford basic health care (and the ones that can are having drugs shoved down their throats). Lead laced toys, mercury laced vaccines, fluoridated water, msg, saccharine/aspartame/sucralose(spelnda bastards) really help with physical and mental health too. Not to mention the total poliferation of electronic gadgets & cell phones and their unknown long term effects on people.

Our leaders tell us everything is alright while we send kids off to kill people, and the country is being drained (fuck its already in the negative) of every last penny. This is a crisis, yet people try to act as though everything is normal, and this turns the stress up even more. For when you force yourself to believe a lie, everything becomes mixed up and confusing because things that 'should be' aren't, and things that 'shouldn't' are.


Still, everybody goes about their daily lives, and try to forget these problems... but you can't solve problems by ignoring them and it only worsens the conditions.

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That list only make the rates on U.S. rates look worst, not better, see, the vast majority of those countries are still in development and when dealing with criminality, a lot of then are still no mans land, they simply don't have the means or the manpower to stop or at least, cohibit crime, and of course they would be top murder rates, but a quote from the same article says;

Homicide demographics are affected by changes in trauma care, leading to changed lethality of violent assaults, so the homicide rate may not necessarily indicate the overall level of societal violence.

The top one for instance, the country had the worst helthcare in the americas up till the 80's, something that, amongst other things, led the country to a 12 year civil war, it still has one of the largest rates of powerty, and it's the most dense populated country in the americas.

So what you are saying is that compared to the rest of the third world countries, U.S. is okay? well, it's nonsense to me, but even so, a helluva good list, shows that people don't really think before killing another human being.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Blast it. I thought we were comparing USA to the world, and now you wanted to compare it to just its peers among the first world

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Modern African American culture.

The Punishing Decade: Prison and Jail Estimates at the Millennium

African-Americans comprise the majority (52%) of criminal offenders arrested and convicted of homicide (murder and manslaughter), and a large proportion (46.9%) of homicide victims. Not being a racist here, but it is an underlying problem and could the hip-hop culture may be to blame.

In 1995, one-third of African American men between the ages of 20 and 29 were under some form of criminal justice control (in prison, on parole or probation). Since then that statistic has risen. According James E. Garrett, Jr., Executive Director of the Indiana Commission on the Social Status of Black Males, incarceration rate among African American men (4.16 percent of population; nearly 40 percent of imprisoned population)

I was speaking idiomatically.

Ergo, I blame black people. Fucking coloreds with all their "rap" music - if it can even be called that!

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Maybe the reason so many blacks are criminals has more to do with drugs being one of the few ways to make money in the ghettos besides prostituting, than 50 Cent.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Bradylama

Maybe the reason so many blacks are criminals has more to do with drugs being one of the few ways to make money in the ghettos besides prostituting, than 50 Cent.

Or maybe it's because of gangs and the music they listen to, because it seems many of the actual criminals will take rap music seriously.

How ya doing, buddy?

Yeah, because Black people have had absolutely zero disadvantages throughout their entire history. Yup yup, they're just all delinquents of society because it's just always been so "hip."

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Rotorblade

Yeah, because Black people have had absolutely zero disadvantages throughout their entire history. Yup yup, they're just all delinquents of society because it's just always been so "hip."

I didn't say that was the reason why there are surprising statistics among the black population; however, I would not give them the benefit of the doubt. I don't think you can blame a group of people for something that happened 200-400 years ago. Also, black people were not only slaves in America, why are their statistics only outlandish in that region?

Also, if you want to take the whole, "We should feel sorry for them because of the slavery" route, I would encourage you to think about Native Americans. Their civilization came to an dreadful end, genocide. I don't like the excuse you are giving me, I think it is a cop out. Sure, some of what you are saying is true. I will use the Native Americans as another example. After their lands were conquered, they were placed in reservations with harsh conditions. Many of them resort to thievery and violence. However, in today's society, Native Americans are not really viewed as a problem. On average, they make better grades in school, and lower crime rates than the black population (divided by ratio).

Also, it can be argued that Native Americans live in worse conditions than blacks in today's society. So the whole racism-oppression argument seems invalid to me.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Tesla

I didn't say that was the reason why there are surprising statistics among the black population; however, I would not give them the benefit of the doubt. I don't think you can blame a group of people for something that happened 200-400 years ago. Also, black people were not only slaves in America, why are their statistics only outlandish in that region?

You're all sorts of fucked up on this issue. 200-400 years ago? Are you daft? There's a big difference between "Slavery" and "Civil Rights", which is exactly what you don't seem to be able to distinguish. The "actions" of a "few people 200-400 years ago" isn't the issue. The fact that blacks usually have to work twice as hard to get half as far is. And it's the same for many races and countries. Yeah, there were black slaves in other countries, but that's not the issue here, is it?

You tell me, Tesla, why IS IT that blacks are so rambunctious in America?

If you ask me... the ramifications of slavery are in effect to this day. It doesn't justify or mitigate the actions of people who break the fucking law, but that wasn't the point of why I brought it up. You're being an ass. The only person who is on a blame line of thinking is you. Look at your self, look at your very first post on this tangent. Your whole intention is to pass blame and for all the wrong reasons.

Society is fucked up, but if you want to play "let's take it a step further" with blacks and music, then why can't I take it a step further and look at history, society, and mankind as a whole?

Could it be that I can't do that if it doesn't fit your modus operandi? Your sense of logic? Questions, good sir. Questions.

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Also, if you want to take the whole, "We should feel sorry for them because of the slavery" route, I would encourage you to think about Native Americans. Their civilization came to an dreadful end, genocide. I don't like the excuse you are giving me, I think it is a cop out. Sure, some of what you are saying is true. I will use the Native Americans as another example. After their lands were conquered, they were placed in reservations with harsh conditions. Many of them resort to thievery and violence. However, in today's society, Native Americans are not really viewed as a problem. On average, they make better grades in school, and lower crime rates than the black population (divided by ratio).

Also, it can be argued that Native Americans live in worse conditions than blacks in today's society. So the whole racism-oppression argument seems invalid to me.

Encourage me? I have Native American blood in me, fuck off. History is History. People die off, Nations, Societies, Cultures... they get swept up in time or struck down. Nothing lasts. Here's something you should think about: "Fucked up is fucked up." The instant you start trying to play comparisons and assign tiers and ratios to things, the more nothing gets solved because you're too busy trying to assign it a number and a priority.

My "people" aren't the issue here, asshole. You brought up blacks, so let's hear it. You've obviously got such knowledge on government, history, politics, and sociology to make a bold statement. What happens when rap music goes away? The "black problem" is solved, right? Wrong.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Tesla

Or maybe it's because of gangs and the music they listen to, because it seems many of the actual criminals will take rap music seriously.

I'm not a criminal. I'm actually fairly white bred.

But there's plenty of hip hop and rap that I take seriously. Even the gangster kind.

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Originally Posted by Rotorblade

You're all sorts of fucked up on this issue. 200-400 years ago? Are you daft? There's a big difference between "Slavery" and "Civil Rights", which is exactly what you don't seem to be able to distinguish. The "actions" of a "few people 200-400 years ago" isn't the issue. The fact that blacks usually have to work twice as hard to get half as far is. And it's the same for many races and countries. Yeah, there were black slaves in other countries, but that's not the issue here, is it?

You're statement is entirely flawed. In today's American society, it is theoretically easier for blacks to get by. Despite racism, which really isn't a huge issue anymore, blacks are offered so many special programs to help them succeed. I don't really see anything that is preventing them from succeeding. Programs which are only offered to blacks. Ever heard of Affirmative Action? If anything, there is too much compensation. Even according to high-profile blacks, such as Bill Cosby. The idiom which you present suggests otherwise.

Originally Posted by Rotorblade

You tell me, Tesla, why IS IT that blacks are so rambunctious in America?

If you ask me... the ramifications of slavery are in effect to this day. It doesn't justify or mitigate the actions of people who break the fucking law, but that wasn't the point of why I brought it up. You're being an ass. The only person who is on a blame line of thinking is you. Look at your self, look at your very first post on this tangent. Your whole intention is to pass blame and for all the wrong reasons.

My intention is to not pass blame. My intentions are merely to examine the statistics. Murder rates are high in the US, and who makes up the majority of the percentage? Blacks. It's not very hard to realize that it is an issue. In essence, your goal is to simply push it under the rug. In my mind this isn't a "blame game". It's examining issues that are controversial and addressing them. Who gives a shit if they are controversial? It's obvious that there is a problem here, and why are you being such a pussy that you wont acknowledge it. Also, learn to organize your thoughts clearly. I had a difficult time analyzing your sentences because your grammar was so poorly organized.

Originally Posted by Rotorblade

Society is fucked up, but if you want to play "let's take it a step further" with blacks and music, then why can't I take it a step further and look at history, society, and mankind as a whole?

Could it be that I can't do that if it doesn't fit your modus operandi? Your sense of logic? Questions, good sir. Questions.

Take a look at history. I encourage you. I never said civil rights or slavery had nothing to do with it. I merely stated that the music obviously promotes this kind of behavior, and influences the culture, especially in youths.

Originally Posted by Rotorblade

Encourage me? I have Native American blood in me, fuck off. History is History. People die off, Nations, Societies, Cultures... they get swept up in time or struck down. Nothing lasts. Here's something you should think about: "Fucked up is fucked up." The instant you start trying to play comparisons and assign tiers and ratios to things, the more nothing gets solved because you're too busy trying to assign it a number and a priority.

I was comparing blacks to Native Americans to prove a point, not to confuse anything. The more you try to deny the issue at hand, the more things are swept under the rug, and unsolved.

Originally Posted by Rotorblade

My "people" aren't the issue here, asshole. You brought up blacks, so let's hear it. You've obviously got such knowledge on government, history, politics, and sociology to make a bold statement. What happens when rap music goes away? The "black problem" is solved, right? Wrong.

Did I ever say "your people" are the issue here? No, why don't you learn to read. I simply made a comparison. I never said that music is the cause of why blacks are rambunctious, I said it may have some influence. I seriously doubt eliminating rap music would eliminate the problem. Quit trying to put words in my mouth.

I was speaking idiomatically.

The question is not of means: guns and legislation, but rather of the cause: social unrest.

So then, why, in a first world country with welfare and ample opportunity for employment and wealth, is the society unhappy? Why do they want to kill each other?

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by neus

The question is not of means: guns and legislation, but rather of the cause: social unrest.

So then, why, in a first world country with welfare and ample opportunity for employment and wealth, is the society unhappy? Why do they want to kill each other?

I'd like to know the answer to that. I'd also like to know why two random "gangsta" fellows murdered the student body president of UNC.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Tesla

You're statement is entirely flawed. In today's American society, it is theoretically easier for blacks to get by. Despite racism, which really isn't a huge issue anymore, blacks are offered so many special programs to help them succeed. I don't really see anything that is preventing them from succeeding. Programs which are only offered to blacks. Ever heard of Affirmative Action? If anything, there is too much compensation.

You and every other "Theory Fighter" out there who think shit works in reality like it works out on paper are pretty damned sad. Stigma comes with every single one of those programs that supposedly help blacks and other races succeed. Affirmative Action isn't a fix, it doesn't solve the apprehensions various people have because of race and it doesn't help anyone, specifically blacks, overcome the problems of being "that guy." You're invalidated because you were "given" a position when your peers, people such as yourself specifically, start talking about how you were just placed there to fill a role.

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Even according to high-profile blacks, such as Bill Cosby. The idiom which you present suggests otherwise.

Your word doesn't mean shit here. First of all, present what he said and then illustrate how it suddenly proves me wrong. Secondly, I'm pretty sure that when you do attempt to do so and fail, I'm going to have to point out how Bill Cosby and other "high profile blacks" aren't in a majority, compared to the majority of blacks who still live in poverty and have to resist the temptations of what's "easy."

But I don't have to prove shit yet, because you fucking fail at discourse and debate.

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My intention is to not pass blame.

Originally Posted by Tesla

Or maybe it's because of gangs and the music they listen to, because it seems many of the actual criminals will take rap music seriously.

DO MY EYES DECEIVE ME.

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My intentions are merely to examine the statistics. Murder rates are high in the US, and who makes up the majority of the percentage? Blacks. It's not very hard to realize that it is an issue. In essence, your goal is to simply push it under the rug. In my mind this isn't a "blame game". It's examining issues that are controversial and addressing them. Who gives a shit if they are controversial? It's obvious that there is a problem here, and why are you being such a pussy that you wont acknowledge it.

It's kind of hard to relate to these statistics and quotes that you aren't posting. The burden of proof being on you, you sure are doing a shitty job of illustrating anything other than the fact you're an idiot.

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Also, learn to organize your thoughts clearly. I had a difficult time analyzing your sentences because your grammar was so poorly organized.

I think it has less to do with my grammar and a bit more to do with how little you understand about what I'm saying.

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I never said civil rights or slavery had nothing to do with it.

Based off what you're talking about, you obviously feel that those two things just don't matter in comparison to a genre of music. You never needed to explicitly state it, cognitive reasoning would state that you would rather address those niggers and their devil music.

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I was comparing blacks to Native Americans to prove a point

You haven't provided a single statistic or established any kind of "point" since you got on about this.

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Did I ever say "your people" are the issue here?

You brought up Native Americans as a straw man. The point here: If they're not an issue then don't bring them up.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Rotorblade

You and every other "Theory Fighter" out there who think shit works in reality like it works out on paper are pretty damned sad. Stigma comes with every single one of those programs that supposedly help blacks and other races succeed. Affirmative Action isn't a fix, it doesn't solve the apprehensions various people have because of race and it doesn't help anyone, specifically blacks, overcome the problems of being "that guy." You're invalidated because you were "given" a position when your peers, people such as yourself specifically, start talking about how you were just placed there to fill a role.

So what's the point you are trying to make? Affirmative Action hasn't fixed anything? I would have to agree. I would say that the fix would start at making blacks truly equal and to stop useless compensations. That's just my opinion though. Although, I would say this is slightly drifting from the topic at hand.

Originally Posted by Rotorblade

Your word doesn't mean shit here. First of all, present what he said and then illustrate how it suddenly proves me wrong. Secondly, I'm pretty sure that when you do attempt to do so and fail, I'm going to have to point out how Bill Cosby and other "high profile blacks" aren't in a majority, compared to the majority of blacks who still live in poverty and have to resist the temptations of what's "easy."

I think this should explain mainly what I am talking about.
CNN.com - The outspoken Bill Cosby - Nov 11, 2004

I don't think this should be turned into a "why do blacks live in poverty thread". The point I am making here, is that blacks highly contribute to the high murder rate in America, and statistics prove it. Prove me wrong.

Originally Posted by Rotorblade

But I don't have to prove shit yet, because you fucking fail at discourse and debate.

I don't see the point in anything you have said rather than to discredit my argument. You would rather shove everything under the rug and not address real issues and sympathize with blacks as a whole, rather than admit there is an issue at hand.

Originally Posted by Rotorblade

I think it has less to do with my grammar and a bit more to do with how little you understand about what I'm saying.

Your lack of grammar destroys your credibility and deems your posts "laughable".

Originally Posted by Rotorblade

Based off what you're talking about, you obviously feel that those two things just don't matter in comparison to a genre of music. You never needed to explicitly state it, cognitive reasoning would state that you would rather address those niggers and their devil music.

I believe the music only contributes to the issue. I don't have a problem with people listening to it, but when they take it to heart and allow their culture to revolve around it, that's when it becomes somewhat of an issue.

Originally Posted by Rotorblade

It's kind of hard to relate to these statistics and quotes that you aren't posting. The burden of proof being on you, you sure are doing a shitty job of illustrating anything other than the fact you're an idiot.
You haven't provided a single statistic or established any kind of "point" since you got on about this.

Obviously you haven't read the whole thread. Do you really need me you point it out to you? Also, it seems the only way you continue to advance your argument is to resort to name-calling, which is a sad and pathetic retort, as always.

Originally Posted by Rotorblade

You brought up Native Americans as a straw man. The point here: If they're not an issue then don't bring them up.

I used them as a comparison to explain the issue revolving around blacks.

I merely expressed my opinion on the murder rates issue. Learn to argue and stop being a spiteful cunt.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Tesla

Affirmative Action hasn't fixed anything?

Right. My point was that because of this fact, it's wrong to invoke it as a supposed "benefit" to blacks or any other culture in society. I think there's still resolution that needs to be made, but that's neither here nor there, so yes, let's drop this. We're sort of in agreement, I can call that progress for now.

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I think this should explain mainly what I am talking about.
CNN.com - The outspoken Bill Cosby - Nov 11, 2004

Look, don't insult my intelligence by pointing me or anyone else to an entire article. Summarize whatever backs up your point or refutes mine, quote it, do something... but don't toss it in my face. Debate doesn't work that way.

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I don't think this should be turned into a "why do blacks live in poverty thread". The point I am making here, is that blacks highly contribute to the high murder rate in America, and statistics prove it. Prove me wrong.

Here's the thing, I don't disagree with you on this. It's your line of reasoning for "why" that I disagree with. Yes, gangs are a problem, blacks are not the only race of people who partake in organized crime. Nor are they the only ones to use a source of media to justify their actions. You can say that about anybody who lives a criminal lifestyle. Hackers use fictional characters like Radical Edward as a mascot. Italian Mafiosos love the Godfather films and Goodfellas. That said, media isn't the problem, the very idea of blaming the media takes the blame, the responsibility off of the shoulders of people who break the law and places it solely on the people who merely tell stories about it.

Which group of people are breaking the law, Tesla? "The Devil made me do it" is not an excuse, so why should "dem rap lyrics made me do it" be different?

Again, my point isn't that "blacks are not the majority right now", I don't care if they are or aren't. Nor is it, "blacks live in poverty, that sucks and you should feel it sucks too." I'm saying your reasoning is flawed. That there's a reason that so many blacks turn to drugs and crime as a way to live.

The "Civil Rights" era ended, I'd say, in the 80s. That isn't 200-400 years ago. Blacks have just begun to see themselves in society as more than just second class citizens. As they assert themselves in these positions, they have to face old prejudices, new prejudices, social stigma... a lot of things that outline the problems that have lingered from years of being poorly educated and held down by American society.

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I don't see the point in anything you have said rather than to discredit my argument. You would rather shove everything under the rug and not address real issues and sympathize with blacks as a whole, rather than admit there is an issue at hand.

No, Tesla. Let me blunt: I think you're a racist in denial. Something in me feels that you either hear that often, or not often enough. I don't even like saying it. I think you have some underlying issues with blacks that have broken the law that puts you in an outrage and prevents you from distinguishing between an individual and the crimes they commit and a group of people who shouldn't all be associated with wrong doing just because "OMG, majority."

I think the instant neus presented his question and you willfully stated you wanted to know the answers, you completely discredited your body of reasoning that I addressed in the first place.

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I believe the music only contributes to the issue. I don't have a problem with people listening to it, but when they take it to heart and allow their culture to revolve around it, that's when it becomes somewhat of an issue.

Already addressed this.

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Obviously you haven't read the whole thread. Do you really need me you point it out to you? Also, it seems the only way you continue to advance your argument is to resort to name-calling, which is a sad and pathetic retort, as always.

No, no, no. Where are the statistics based on rap, the media? Typically, anything that either glorifies or empathizes with a criminal lifestyle has people who look up to something in the media to justify what they do. You haven't presented any statistics regarding blacks and rap and "percentage of people who break the law that listen to rap music." And even if you did, you'll NEVER win a conclusive argument with that approach, because even scholars and psychiatrists aren't entirely sure how much affect the media has on antisocial behavior.

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I used them as a comparison to explain the issue revolving around blacks.

A comparison that had no merit whatsoever and explained nothing.

There's nowhere I can't reach.