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Jam it back in, in the dark. John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
I also hear
Spoiler:
Keep it under your hats. There's nowhere I can't reach. John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
So, uh, Vin Diesel would have torn up the role of the Joker? Oh yeah, spot on comment there. No, not anyone could have played this role so well. Heath was fantastic at it, and stop trying to be internet cool by stepping aside and saying anyone could have done it. It just isn't true. There are a handful of people who could have played the role as well, but you know what? There were a handful of people who could have played Henry in Lion in Winter as well as Peter O'Toole. That doesn't mean he didn't completely own the role and put on one of the best performances in film history. It doesn't diminish what he did. All you can put up against it is "maybe someone else could have done a decent job of it." But that doesn't fucking -matter-. The point is he's the guy in the role and he stomped it. Get a grip. That's pretty much the most inane argument I've ever heard about an actor. "Sure he was brilliant, but I mean, someone else might have been brilliant too. So I don't want to hear about it." Please. Also, did you see Batman Begins? Just curious. Because he uses that voice through there as well. It's not the movie's fault you played a shitty game and now have a problem with relating it to things that don't suck. I'm all for criticism of this movie, there's plenty you could level against it, but could you try actually finding problems with the movie, instead of just rambling like a retard and expecting people to give a shit about your baseless opinions? This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it. John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
I'm not angry with you, I just think you have an incredibly idiotic approach to what you're doing. Just because it's the internet doesn't mean you have to be completely without intellect in what you do. Just think about your argument concerning how people shouldn't praise Heath Ledger because MAYBE someone else could have done as good a job. If you really think that holds water, maybe you should spend even less time here than you already do. Consider coming back never if you can't see what's wrong with the logic there. I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body? John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
Though even early in TAS, he was ridiculously good. So he might just be some sort of voice acting freak. How ya doing, buddy? John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now? John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
What you said was that a lot of other people could have done as good a job, and insinuated that his abilities were somehow overestimated here. So either you're not doing a very good job of getting your point across or you're backpeddling because you clearly didn't know what you were talking about. Not trying to be an asshole, but just because you have an opinion doesn't mean people won't dissect it when it's clearly flawed. FELIPE NO John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
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Yeah, that's it. It's certainly not that there is no way in hell Heath will get an Oscar for playing a fake-crazy (read: not even remotely realistic) person in a comic book movie. It won't happen. The academy never comes close to this kind of choice.
Was he good? Yes. Very. Will he win an Oscar? No chance in hell. Will he get a nomination? Almost assuredly no. Liking things to the point of having no logic at all? That's a problem, yes. And Cat, you keep thinking intelligent is just a way for people to think they're better than you. Good hustle, internet nobody #10383. There's nowhere I can't reach. John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
Man, what a bunch of elitist pricks. Also, no, the majority of the SAG awards are voted on by actors, not the Oscars. EDIT: Sass, I'm not sure how you were underwhelmed by Eckhart, he did very well given how much he had to work with. Also, the reason it dragged on was some screenplay issues (Dead, now not dead. Oh but SHE'S totally dead. For reals. Could have cut out a step there.) as well as a few issues with the writing getting very over the top from time to time (immovable object speech was rubbish. As was the whole Joker is an agent of chaos and hates plans-but-uses-plans-all-the-time bullshit, not to mention the whole fifteen minute opening was plagued with troubles.) but overall, I'd say the biggest reason you didn't like it was exactly what you said: You're not a Batman fan. It's like going to Field of Dreams with no concept of the Black Sox. It's just not going to be the same experience. This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it. John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD.
Last edited by No. Hard Pass.; Jul 20, 2008 at 11:46 PM.
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I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body? John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
I was speaking idiomatically. John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
Wait, you mean those guys at the beginning were working for the joker? The guys in the clown faces worked for a crazy guy called the Joker? Man, I really wish there'd been some audio clues to make it more salient for me that the Joker was the boss of that clown gang. Because man, they sure didn't let me know the JOKER JOKER JOKER JOKER JOKER JOKER etc.
What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now? John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
All right, let's get one thing straight right from the beginning: This movie isn't perfect. It's far from it. All those reviews you see stating how near perfect the movie is? They're lying. There are some really blatant flaws in it.
But it is salvaged quite nicely by other aspects, thankfully. So before I lean into this, I'm stating quite plainly: I think you should see this movie. Now, I went into this movie fairly hyped. I'm a Batman fan going back a long way, and I'd seen some early footage of Heath Ledger playing the Joker and I was intrigued. I liked a lot of things about the hype going in, though I was understandably skeptical about the Oscar buzz surrounding Ledger (and still am) and screams about this being the best movie in years. Twenty minutes in, I thought the movie was going to be rubbish. The bank heist scene was one of the worst written bits of script I've ever seen. How many times do we need to drop the Joker's name? I'm an intelligent guy, I could draw the connection between clown masks and the later appearance of the Joker. Nevermind the playing card at the end of Begins, the visual clues in the bank heist alone were more than enough. I felt talked down to and it was irritating. Also, you're telling me NO ONE would notice one of that line of school buses covered in mortar, or, I don't know, PULLING OUT OF THE WALL OF A BANK? Come on. That scene could have been so much better if they'd just had the guys offing each other one after the other, with the eventual reveal of the Joker at the end. We'd have gotten it. We're all readers, here. We don't need our hands held. Less is more, Chris Nolan and Chris Nolan's brother. Less is more. This movie also suffers from an unfortunate bout of Return of the King-ism. The gazillion endings really hamper the pacing, which had just begun to recover from the Jim-Gordon-Is-Dead-No-He-Isn't-But-Rachel-Really-IS-dead-LOL abortion at the midpoint. Want me to care about someone being dead? A) don't make them Maggie Gyllenhaal delivering a painfully flat performance, B) don't kill off someone and make them come back to life ten minutes before you kill off someone else. It dampened the effect, quite noticably. Structure is an important thing, and it just got undercut by that bit of wandering story. Also, and this is largely nerdery so don't count this as film criticism, how are you going to have Batman use guns on the batpod? Really? REALLY? Okay, onto the really important bits that everyone cares about. How was the Joker as a character? Well, he was entertaining, and certainly fun to watch. A few people have gone off on his being contradictory, but that doesn't bother me. I think the agent of chaos rubbish was largely a story invented for Dent's benefit and can be chalked up to the multitude of stories concerning how he got his facial scars; dude just likes fucking with people. HOWEVER, there was entirely too much time spent with Joker explaining his motivations. Especially with that godawful soliloquy he delivered once he was captured by The Batman. You know when the Joker was truly effective? When he was silently staring through prison bars, or performing magic tricks, or riding in the backseat of a police car with his face hanging out the window like the family dog. The less he explained himself, the better he worked. Whenever they started delving into the nature of Joker's madness, it cheapened him. Joker summed up his motivation properly twice: "You're just too much fun" and "this city deserves a better class of criminal." That's it. That's all you need. None of this terribly written immovable object rubbish. Why does he do it? Because he's good at it, and he likes it. The thing that let me enjoy Joker in this flick was thinking of him as Machiavellian rather than an agent of chaos. So how about Harvey Dent? How did Dent work? Surprisingly well, given he's basically a narrative device. Eckhart is an actor I've really liked ever since I saw him in Thank You For Smoking, and though I wasn't as dazzled by him here, it was reminiscent of Benicio Del Toro in Usual Suspects, taking what could have been a throwaway character and making him memorable. The little teasings of his being a less than savoury guy, threatening the mobster, railing against Batman, the fact he's an ex-IA weasel, it was all nicely set-up for his eventual turn towards Two Face. Of course, if you know Batman at all, you saw it coming a mile off, but if I hadn't known anything about the comics at all, I'd have appreciated the "live long enough to see yourself become the villain" bit more. As it stood, I liked the fall of Dent, and the way he was manipulated into not-evil, but just frustration. He did everything right, he played by the rules, he was a good guy, and all it got him was a dead fiancee (he should thank Joker for that bit) and a burned up face. I appreciated they never made him overtly evil, just a guy with a strong sense of justice getting pushed a little too far and losing his grip on what makes him tick. Now. As for THE BATMAN. Great Bruce Wayne. Great, fantastic, brilliant. Loved him basically playing his character from American Psycho. He came off as egotistical, arrogant and a complete prick. Great. That's Bruce Wayne. I loved it. The massive control freak nature was there, it worked. Now, the batvoice. Yes, it's irritating, but we all knew that. For some reason it didn't bother me as much this time out, probably because I was used to it. The one thing I was truly glad I did before seeing this was watch the Gotham Knight, as it worked as a very nice tonal accompaniment to the film, especially as it concerned Batman's increasing frustration with what he had to be. I could have used a bit more mortality from Batman, see him a little more battle damaged and beat up, as they did with Gotham Knight, a little of that internal conflict externalised. He's getting sloppy as his focus becomes less. He's never meant to be a hero, he makes a lousy hero, and he knows it. And this time, can we not have Jim Gordon narrate HOW he's going to be the whipping boy for the city when they've just explained it to us, please? Now, on the upside, the score was wonderfully matched to the movie. And it was shot exceptionally well from a cinematography perspective. Depth of focus, colour contrasts, transitions and framing were exquisite. I was especially impressed with the muted sounds as Joker hung his head out the window after escaping Police custody. That moment of sheer elation worked so well without doing anything overt to highlight it. It was what the entire movie should have been. Also, Chris Nolan has learned how to shoot an action sequence. Good on him. Much better than the atrocity that was Batman Begins fight sequences. The whole movie had a fantastic tone, and that's what tilts me from not liking it to enjoying it. Despite some major flaws with the screenplay, it still managed to feel dark and brooding while keeping my attention with decent pacing (with certain exceptions, as I've pointed out) and it's this overall tone that keeps me from calling this movie overhyped rubbish. I think it was Sass who pointed out that if you strip away all the Batman stuff, it's just an action film with delusions of grandeur. Well no kidding, that's what it is even -with- the Batman aspects of it. But it's a pointless revelation. Action films are a genre to themselves, and at least this movie attempts to do something beyond the basics, although I think it overshoots and hurts itself at times. Comparing this movie to things like Blue Velvet is like comparing Indiana Jones to Bridge on the River Kwai. It's apples and oranges. No, it's not as smart as people make it out to be, but in terms of action movies, it's smarter than most. The problem is simply when it tries too hard and makes itself look like a kid in political palace arguing about how Islam is fine because no one gets raped in Iran. Sometimes it's best just to be concise and not make yourself look like the complete git you really are. I'll take Dark Knight, and even really pandering pseudo-intellectual schlock like Equilibrium any day. Because do you know what action movies are when they lose the delusions of grandeur? Spoiler:
Yeah. I'm siding with delusions of grandeur here. Even pseudo-intellectualism beats that shit any day of the week. It's a comic book movie that is actually a decent ride. I personally hope it rubs off on the rest of the genre, and we see less Iron Man and more Batman. Definitely watchable and enjoyable if you ignore some fatal flaws, but the hype is just that. FELIPE NO John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
Now you know my secret (delicious baconator-laden) shame. What, you don't want my bikini-clad body? John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
You're absolutely right, this is the sort of movie that leads to people running around in a coffee shop late at night, sipping a no-whip, extra hot, caramel latte and talking about Nietzsche while understanding nothing of the context. Won't argue that. Maybe I'm just more pessimistic than you, but I think those people would do that about the Muppet Show or Finding Nemo if they didn't have another outlet. I just don't talk to them. I ignore these people. I live in a drivel free Universe where no one tries to explain to me how Joker is some sort of a biblical reference to Abel. So I ignore it. My enjoyment of this film is purely based on the perspective of a guy who spends a lot of time behind a camera, and they crafted a nice bit of cinematic art. The story is rubbish, I agree with that. It's poorly written and it's painful, but I like the brush strokes on the canvas. Idiots will proliferate not because there are movies for stupid people, but because stupid people lack the drive to read anything beyond school textbooks or graphic novels. It's not an intelligent flick, it's not even a step in the right direction, but it is a departure from something like Spider Man. And I'll take that for what it is. Not a victory, but at least a draw. P.S. I fucking love Starship Troopers. Jam it back in, in the dark. John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
I think this is a Summer useless flick, and that it's better than Brendan Fraiser Goes to the Center Of the Planet 3D. So if you're going to go see a movie in the IMAX, this would be the one. I'm not saying I'm happy it's going to break Box Office records everywhere. I'm not saying it should be taught in film classes. Obviously it shouldn't be. It's simplistic and insulting in how its brought across. I just think it's the best bit of drivel out there. Maybe the disconnect here is that I didn't preface this by saying I haven't been impressed with the movie industry in a very, very, very long time. Though I am curious, LeHah. What's your take on the Prestige? Edit: And I don't -want- a draw. I -want- a great film and a renewal of intelligent film making. I'm saying -this- was a draw. You really think I enjoy this more than I do. Most amazing jew boots John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
I dug the Illusionist, quite a bit.
Also, we're completely agreed on what this movie represents. We just disagree on the hope for the future of our culture. That's a bloated topic you and I can get into on AIM sometime. But it's certainly fair to say that if you and I got a movie made the way we like them, it would do hideously at the box office. This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it. John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body? John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
LZ, I don't think every movie will be the best movie ever made. I don't think every movie will have a perfect script. I just wish it would. If you're cool with things sucking, that's your problem.
And Beaner, the fact you put Transformers up as the opposing force shows that you missed the point. It's not that one isn't better than the other, it's that they could be SO MUCH BETTER. I was speaking idiomatically. John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
It's not bitching and moaning, it's being critical. And it's not exactly a character trait to be shameful of.
What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now? John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
It's not a matter of over-analyzing, it's a matter of analyzing. Critical thought is not pretentious, it's just underused.
And I'm sure there's people who set out to just make a flick for the sake of making a flick. But setting out to create something purely entertaining still requires you to have a plot, or a message. Something. Or else the movie just collapses into itself like so much boneless Orson Welles. FELIPE NO John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
Right, and that draws this conversation to a close.
What, you don't want my bikini-clad body? John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
Jam it back in, in the dark. John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |