[General Discussion] Top Down Shooters: A Lost Gaming Art Form

You know, in terms of my gaming interests I've always strictly been an rpg player, but with me and a few friends back home seriously thinking of opening a retro arcade it made me think of some of my favourite games that I use to play when I use to go to the arcades religiously as a teenager.

One of my favourite games to play were always the top down shooters, because I always found them ridicously hard and I use to dump so many quarters just trying to finish one due to avoiding so many bullets being shot at from every possible direction at a ridicously fast speed.

I guess my interest for these type of games was rekindled when I use to travel back and forth between my job and I seen a lot of these kind of games at the airport and while waiting for my flights I use to play them all the time and they're still as difficult now as what they were when I played them as a teenager.

These days with games being very story driven, I just don't see much of this game style anymore. I know there is not much you can really do with these types of games since they tend to be very linear and very straight forward, but there is a hidden nostalgia I like about them and they're difficulty and I always liked that some of these games actually had some amazing soundtracks.

Some of the recent ones that I've played for consoles is Raiden III, and Castle Shikigami 2. I would really like to get a chance to play Ikaruga even though I know that game will probably rape my soul in more ways than one. I remember watching someone play Ikaruga for the first time and it absolutely amazed me of how utterly beautiful that game looked with its background graphics and the music was almost heavenly.

So to the gamingforce community, I would like to ask if you are a fan of these type of games and what do you like the most about them and do you think they can still still do something fresh with that genre of game to make it survive.

I would generally like to see more of those games come out but I don't see them being popular anymore. I am going to try my best to play them as much as possible if any do come out. I even still enjoy playing the horizontal shooters such as Gradius, R-Type, and UN Squadron. I hope to get a chance to play Radiant Silvergun someday even though I kow its one of the rarest games to own.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Raiden was always a bit too hard for me (really I felt like it was just a waste of quarters) but I played 19XX religiously, and finding MAME later on got me interested in a lot of the shooters that never made it to the states, like Do Don Pachi and Hotdog Storm.

I really like Ikaruga, but it's a shame it's on gamecube, since I traded it in a while back. I kept the game itself, since I plan on eventually getting a Wii, but most of my games are centered around playstation hardware, so it's just kinda inconvenient to have to switch systems.

It really is sad that these types of games don't see much play anymore. It's kinda like Symphony of the Night. Fantastic game, but no other developer thought that 2d was a winning formula except Capcom themselves.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

This was a genre while perhaps not live with color, still had a faint pulse on the PS2. With games like Sylpheed, R-Type, Gradius, Raiden there was a decent amount to keep a fan of the genre satisfied from time to time.

My hopes now that online arcade style games are being made and sold on the 360 & PS3 that perhaps the shooter genre will somehow manage to hone this potential and come out with some good follow ups. It's the perfect medium for the genre to carry on in this generation.

@Skexis
I don't know if you do or plan on getting a 360 (doesn't really sound like it), but Treasure did say at one point that they were bringing Ikaruga to the 360 live arcade. Perhaps it'll come to the PSN someday too. Never know.

How ya doing, buddy?

Like 2D fighters, this is a genre I enjoy but am completely useless at. The PAL world has been pretty kind to the PS2, I've picked up stuff like Samurai Aces, XII Stag, Gunbird Special Edition, 1945 1 & 2, and Sonic Wings Special (PSone but it came out in 2004 so lolol) real cheap. Most pre-owned, I guess Australian's would get confused by the cover for Samurai Aces and such.

"THIS AIN'T NO FLAMIN' V8 SUPERCARS"
"Well it's not supposed to be, why would it be a V8 Superca-"
"STRUTH"

One day I might be able to beat a shooter on a decent difficulty level. One day! My favorite top down shooter is River Raid, does that even count? It should. Because it's River Raid. DON'T SHOOT THE FUEL CONTAINERS!

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Slayer X

but Treasure did say at one point that they were bringing Ikaruga to the 360 live arcade. Perhaps it'll come to the PSN someday too. Never know.

No, they didn't.

Something by the name of Ikaruga appeared on Partnernet for a fucking day. There was no content whatsoever, of any kind, under that entry. Just a name. Partnernet has given birth to too many rumours to trust this shit based on that.

They HAVE said they WANT to work on the arcade, but have not announced anything, be it original content or a port.

This false information needs to be stopped. I am sick of seeing it.

What the arcade IS getting is a port of Trigger Heart Exelica, which is top down, and Omega Five, something original from Hudson and Natsume, which is horizontal.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Ah, I see, too bad, would have been fun to have done co-op over LIVE in Ikaruga.

(PM sent to 2401)

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

If you like top down shooters... try out an online game called infantry online. It still has a decent population in the present to support some fun games and action.

FELIPE NO

In before Touhou.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Ugh, Touhou. I nearly lost a close friend over that moronic game.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of SHMUPS, I just hate how every single top-down shooter made these days has to be a bullet hell, and in SHMUP communities you have to play them otherwise people think you're a weak little pansy who can't handle the spiciness of true challenge. The main problem with bullet hells is that they're less about strategically finding weak spots to shoot stuff and more about just surviving past a certain time limit, at which point the boss or whatever will be destroyed and you can move on. I'm just tired of seeing them. I firmly believe games like this can be challenging without being bullet hells; look at the Raiden series, for example. The main catch in that game is that your ship is extremely slow and you have to watch out for several targets that fire short-but-wide bursts of bullets, even during boss battles, instead of one single target that utterly covers the screen with bullets.

It's made even worse when that single target is a sappy, emotional and annoying loli anime girl. Rated U for "Ugh".

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by 2401 Penitent Tangent

No, they didn't.

Something by the name of Ikaruga appeared on Partnernet for a fucking day. There was no content whatsoever, of any kind, under that entry. Just a name. Partnernet has given birth to too many rumours to trust this shit based on that.

They HAVE said they WANT to work on the arcade, but have not announced anything, be it original content or a port.

This false information needs to be stopped. I am sick of seeing it.

What the arcade IS getting is a port of Trigger Heart Exelica, which is top down, and Omega Five, something original from Hudson and Natsume, which is horizontal.

That and developers aren't retarded. They know the value of Ikaruga (I paid 30 bucks for it used last month) and that simply re-releasing the game would net vastly more profit. Those who never got a copy of the game would be able to finally get it. This is like saying Chrono Trigger is being released on the Wii's Virtual Console. Shut up.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I personally absolutely adore shmups even though I'm not that great at them, and I even work with an indie crew on one or two of them. (SHAMELESS SELF PROMOTION LOLZ ) Shmups are far from dead, aside from the obvious Touhou fanaticism, there's a lot of cool developers doing them still. Cave is the most obvious example, and also by far the best. Treasure also still makes them, and there are certainly others. It's still a vibrant genre in Japan as you would expect... somehow.

The indie shmup scene is very much into these kinda "modern-classic" top down shooters, more along the lines of Geowars than Progear. I think that's kind of a shame, because I like pixel art and 90s cocksure synthy game music. But there are a lot of gems there, too.

Anyway at the latest Comiket there was an incredible new release called Trouble Witches. This is a very professional-looking game, even featuring voice acting and everything, and it's not just a bullet hell shooter. I really love this game. <3

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

As far as I know, most top down shooters I've seen always ARE Touhou/Bullet Hell, or if you want to get proper... have a lot of shit going on the screen and more bullets than you'd normally expect. Though you can play Salamander 2 on Hard Mode and get to the asteroid field, that's always a laugh for horizontal bullets. I like the shoot em up genre, but I have a softer spot in my heart for the horizontal rather than vertical scrolling shooters. Raiden DX, ESP Ra.De, and Chaos Field are probably my favorite top down shooters. Mostly because I actually bothered trying to become proficient at them. I think in the end, you can't really argue for or against Horizontal and Vertical as far as gameplay goes. Because, for the most part, you're memorizing bullet patterns or ship placement so the level doesn't crush you.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by PsychoJosh

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of SHMUPS, I just hate how every single top-down shooter made these days has to be a bullet hell, and in SHMUP communities you have to play them otherwise people think you're a weak little pansy who can't handle the spiciness of true challenge. The main problem with bullet hells is that they're less about strategically finding weak spots to shoot stuff and more about just surviving past a certain time limit, at which point the boss or whatever will be destroyed and you can move on. I'm just tired of seeing them. I firmly believe games like this can be challenging without being bullet hells; look at the Raiden series, for example. The main catch in that game is that your ship is extremely slow and you have to watch out for several targets that fire short-but-wide bursts of bullets, even during boss battles, instead of one single target that utterly covers the screen with bullets.

"Classic" type shmups are every bit as much about memorization as "bullet hell" types, though. The former typically requires you to memorize what enemy pattern or giant attack is coming next, so you can avoid it in advance before it flies straight into you. A lot of those bosses tend to give you very little warning before their giant laser beams of death, which comes across to me as exceedingly cheap.

Taking your example, it sounds like the main survival strategy in Raiden is simply knowing in advance where to put your ponderous ship, since your slow speed precludes dodging those wide, short bursts if you don't know they're coming. It's more about rote memorization than flying skill.

This would be why a lot of people consider those massive bullet spread games to require more skill. You may very well know what's coming, but it's not just a matter of parking your ship in the right spot ahead of time; you still have to have the evasion skill to get through all that. And sometimes it really is kind of rough to safely land a hit on the boss.

Different strokes for different folks. I've personally come to really hate "traditional" horizontal shmups because of their infuriating habit of having enemies come at you from behind, where you can't shoot them at all.

I was speaking idiomatically.

@Monkey King
That's probably why R-Type is my favouriate horizontal shooter. Because it doesn't make you feel like an amputee against an endless army. It just makes you feel like a common robber with a 9mm trying to take on Fort Knox... just the way I like em.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I have to admit I also find myself liking horizontal more often than vertical, simply because nearly every vertical goes for the bullet hell route, with some small trick to its controls or scoring system in an attempt to set it apart from the rest.

Sometimes it works, Ikaruga was a brilliant reinvention, sometimes you're stuck with just one more complication to take into consideration as you try to survive. Other people love this, they like their brain overworked with reactions, memorisation and calculation, but for me 2D shooters have always been about atmosphere, visuals and setpieces. Tight controls are like a good battle system in RPGs, they get you where you're going, but they're not quite the focus for me.

On the visuals terms, much like 2D fighters, I like shmups a lot for the spritework and I'm usually terrible at them. Most of the 2.5D shmups being made these days don't appeal to me so much. The cell-shaded flash-game looks of the indie DC shooters of now look pretty awful to me and are a big turnoff for discovering what else is there.

Ikaruga and Gradius V did 3D in 2D masterfully, not forgetting to throw in a number of inspired and exciting setpieces, not to mention a great soundtrack. But in general I prefer the spritey look of Parodius, Raiden DX, Donpachi and the like.

I suppose I am a graphics whore of sorts as the visuals of Mars Matrix prevented me from really anjoying that game. Yes, the system is pretty neat and it's a really challenging title, but I just couldn't get into it. Radiant Silvergun on the other hand I adore. Superb visual identity, awesome soundtrack, excellent weapon system and more incredible setpieces than you can throw at an Indiana Jones movie. Not to mention it's expansive, inventive, extremely challenging, while still managing to be very welcoming, thanks to the statistics save function of the Saturn mode. Brilliant.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Qwarky

Sometimes it works, Ikaruga was a brilliant reinvention, sometimes you're stuck with just one more complication to take into consideration as you try to survive. Other people love this, they like their brain overworked with reactions, memorisation and calculation, but for me 2D shooters have always been about atmosphere, visuals and setpieces. Tight controls are like a good battle system in RPGs, they get you where you're going, but they're not quite the focus for me.

I really could not have put it better myself. I'd actually been musing about an element topic concerning 2D shooters, but it looks like I'll be getting sloppy seconds on this point. Great post.

I imagine if there were to be a discussion about memorable shooters, I don't think we'd be hearing about the scoring system of ESPGaluda or any other random bullet hell shoot em up. Granted, I think that's the big distinction between people who play solely for the game aspect and people who play games solely for the experience.

As pointed out already, the fun is in the balance of these two things. At least if you play games for more than just the game itself.

Because it isn't as if you can play for the experience and get much of one out of a shoot 'em up. It just wouldn't be very fun. I've talked to people who can't stand Gradius V because they jump in and realize that it is, apparently, time for them to get blown the fuck up. They miss out on things like "Space-Time Anomaly" or shooting through a Bacterion base at high speed. I will say that the game can be hard as shit without constant play. X-Play had it about on cue when it said that ship placement and memorization don't quite appeal to everyone.

One of my favorite series is Thunder Force, and that game is all about its continuity. It's what makes the series so exciting and memorable. If you play Thunder Force 4, there are huge references to Thunder Force 3. Boss upgrades, a break from the action where Fire-Leo 03 Styx ships from Thunder Force 3 upgrade your ship after you and a fleet of them fail to destroy the enemy's giant mecha craft. In Thunder Force V, you actually get to fight the ship from Thunder Force 4 (the one in my sig and avatar, not so coincidentally). When music and level design and gameplay come together, it's magic.

You can describe these moments with words all day, but again, the experience is really where it's at.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Qwarky

I have to admit I also find myself liking horizontal more often than vertical, simply because nearly every vertical goes for the bullet hell route, with some small trick to its controls or scoring system in an attempt to set it apart from the rest.

Sometimes it works, Ikaruga was a brilliant reinvention, sometimes you're stuck with just one more complication to take into consideration as you try to survive. Other people love this, they like their brain overworked with reactions, memorisation and calculation, but for me 2D shooters have always been about atmosphere, visuals and setpieces. Tight controls are like a good battle system in RPGs, they get you where you're going, but they're not quite the focus for me.

It's funny how most of the points I tried to make about Ikaruga were lost in the other thread and reappear in here. Sure, I exaggerated by referring to it as "bullet hell", but I made points about memorisation that went unnoticed. Overall, you seem to share the same opinions about shooters as I do. I could have phrased it a hell of a lot better, but my focus really wasn't on discussing shmups in general.

I guess I just wanted to say that I like "shooters with atmosphere" better than those that rely on memorisation. The Gradius games always did it for me, especially "Gradius Gaiden", where the atmospheric experience itself, and the nostalgia, is more important than earning the top score.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

If all that was what you wanted to say, then that's what you should have focused on saying. Instead of using a hyperbole that went over most everyone's head, including yours I think. Leave that shit in the other thread, dude, please.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

My issue really wasn't that you don't enjoy playing Ikaruga (or any other game). I simply disagree with you that that somehow makes it a bad game. You said quality is subjective, when I felt it's the opposite. I can easily tell that Porco Rosso is Hayao Miyazaki's finest film, while Laputa remains my personal favorite. I enjoy playing Tenchu: Fatal Shadows a lot, but I could never say it's a good game, qualitywise. You see this distinction of assessing merit objectively as opposed to only subjectively?

Similarly, while I no longer enjoy playing Ikaruga (as I played it far too much), I could never deny that it is a fantastic piece of work and a superb overhaul of shooter conventions, much like something like Halo was with FPS games.



On the subject of gushing, Radiant Silvergun was indeed a revelation for me when I finally got to play it.

It is a massive shame it's such a notoriously high-priced game, because that always overshadows what an amazing videogame it is in its own right. It produced absolutely amazing visuals on hardware you wouldn't think possible on (barring Panzer Dragoon Saga perhaps). It completely reworked the weapon powerup system (as later did Ikaruga) and played with structure and chronology in a genre where experimentation was usually strictly limited to gameplay. Hitoshi Sakimoto's rousing score, the juxtaposition of the colorful and cheery characters and the bleak world and story (similar to FF6 for me), and the masses of breathtaking and brilliant setpieces, both in levels and boss fights. Penta will probably forever remain my favorite boss fight ever, the delivery was simply peerless.

Not only was the weapons powered up through use, RPG-style, but dying and restarting the game with your new stats in Saturn mode was akin to grinding for experience and levels in RPGs as well. It allowed for the game to be satisfyingly challenging for the people who didn't want to use the save system (by allowing them a simple choice of whether to save or not, instead of doing it for them), and for lower skilled people to get further and further in the game with each reload, if they so wished, without any need to fiddle with actual difficulty levels. It allowed for easier access to the game and easier learning of the levels for more skilled play later on. I can not think of a more excellent system for a shooter of this calibre.

Granted, playing without the save system, the game can be merciless if you don't know when and how to milk the score system to boost your weapons. Many complained you simply won't be powerful enough to beat the later bosses. The game doesn't really punish you for not beating the bosses within their time limits though, so I don't see it as a flaw. If you want high scores, you need to be good and know things inside out, and this is no different from any other shmup. If you want to learn, the game will teach you. If you just want to play, you can do that, without feeling like you're not getting the whole game (as with easier difficulty settings sometimes).

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Qwarky

On the subject of gushing, Radiant Silvergun was indeed a revelation for me when I finally got to play it.

That's because, much like its spiritual sequel, Radiant Silvergun is one of the best games ever created. It's too bad that it's also one of the hardest games I've ever played because I've never seen an ending for it.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by PsychoJosh

Ugh, Touhou. I nearly lost a close friend over that moronic game.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of SHMUPS, I just hate how every single top-down shooter made these days has to be a bullet hell, and in SHMUP communities you have to play them otherwise people think you're a weak little pansy who can't handle the spiciness of true challenge. The main problem with bullet hells is that they're less about strategically finding weak spots to shoot stuff and more about just surviving past a certain time limit, at which point the boss or whatever will be destroyed and you can move on. I'm just tired of seeing them..

Uh, no you don't. A person who likes shooters shouldn't provoke others who don't like certain types of shooters just because they don't play them - that's stupid. I play Pop'n, but not IIDX, although they're both in the same genre, and I don't get provoked because of it.

Also I'm guessing you haven't played dodonpachi daioujou, which REQUIRES you to know weak spots as well as dodging curtain fire plus chaining for lives you're going to be needing on stage 5.

Also wrong again, touhou isn't about waiting for spell cards to time out. They have a life bar, and you have to bring it down. If the card times out, you lose faith/points/cherry/whatever and you don't capture that card. It's called failing.

Although there's some spell cards which require you to wait for the timer to run out, yes, but they're rare. You mostly won't see them in the main story but probably in Extra mode. They're called "survival spellcards". Also, you fail those if you bomb or die.

Also, bullet hell pretty much revived the genre.



As for the topic, I'm pretty big on shmups myself. Best genre ever, favorite genre too and I love it. Bullet hell is great fun if you understand it and if you can read bullet patterns. Not so much if you can't. I tried getting into Psikyo shooters which are okay but they're really not my sort of thing.

I really liked Raiden DX but Raiden 3 was disappointing, so I don't care for IV. I own a few horizontal shooters like Gradius V and yeah they're okay, but I still prefer vertical ones.

I'll play most CAVE games and doujin shmups in general if I'm given the chance. I own 3/4 of the PS2 CAVE shooters and 3/4 danmaku touhou shooters. I think they were extremely good value for money.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Sword Familiar

It's funny how most of the points I tried to make about Ikaruga were lost in the other thread and reappear in here. Sure, I exaggerated by referring to it as "bullet hell", but I made points about memorisation that went unnoticed. Overall, you seem to share the same opinions about shooters as I do. I could have phrased it a hell of a lot better, but my focus really wasn't on discussing shmups in general.

I guess I just wanted to say that I like "shooters with atmosphere" better than those that rely on memorisation. The Gradius games always did it for me, especially "Gradius Gaiden", where the atmospheric experience itself, and the nostalgia, is more important than earning the top score.

I'd still argue that the "other" kind of shooters require way more memorization than "bullet hell". If you don't know what giant assfuck attack is coming when the boss waves his claws around in circles, there's still the chance that you can pull through by the skin of your teeth with some fancy flying. I like that a lot better than SURPRISE SCREEN-FILLING LASER BEAM, if for nothing else than the illusion that I have a prayer.

I do dig neat atmosphere in a game, of course. Darius Gaiden is one of the ones I've been having fun flying through. I still find it irritating how the game is also a cheap son of a bitch, even though MAME means never having to spend real quarters. Do the two really have to be mutually exclusive with one another, though? Maybe it's just a matter of pacing.

Also, Qwarky is dead on about the games' individual gimmicks varying wildly. Sometimes it's neat, and sometimes it's Guwange with its stupidly cumbersome spirit bomber thingy. Some bullet hell games are just not fun, whether you like the genre or not.

How ya doing, buddy?

One of the issues I've always had with R-Type games is how they truly represent the memorisation spectrum of shooters. Not so much in Final, but especially the first two games were downright painful unless you knew the levels inside out. Bullets and enemies appear from the top and bottom of the screen, combined with the ship's slow movement speed made for a lot of frustration when dying. I blamed the game more than myself, which never happens with most (good) shmups I play these days.

That said, R-Type is a veritable classic and I happily love and hate it. Lovely spritework too. Final is an amazing experience too, very high up with atmospheric shooters.

Darius Gaiden is another favorite of mine, even if most of the later bosses just make you go

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by Infernal Monkey

My favorite top down shooter is River Raid, does that even count? It should. Because it's River Raid. DON'T SHOOT THE FUEL CONTAINERS!

Actually, if they took the River Raid concept of "refueling" and placed it in a modern schmup like, say, R-type Final for example my brain would probably explode. I absolutely cannot imagine having to dodge all those bullets/enemies/explosions and have to worry about refueling...

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Qwarky

I blamed the game more than myself, which never happens with most (good) shmups I play these days.

This is a really good point. I find it incredibly frustrating when a game just traps me in this mess of bullets and there's nothing I can do to get out (except bomb), or when the movement of the ship is slow enough that I can't seem to dodge stuff in time (or so fast that I can't properly steer in between streams of bullets, that's super annoying too).

I think that Cave generally gets this balance really well, games like Progear and Dodonpachi may throw a lot of bullets, but I always feel like my death was my own fault due to incompetence, rather than the game being cheap.

Jam it back in, in the dark.