|
|
Welcome to the Exploding Garrmondo Weiner Interactive Swiss Army Penis. |
GFF is a community of gaming and music enthusiasts. We have a team of dedicated moderators, constant member-organized activities, and plenty of custom features, including our unique journal system. If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ or our GFWiki. You will have to register before you can post. Membership is completely free (and gets rid of the pesky advertisement unit underneath this message).
|
|
Thread Tools |
And the reason why world and society as a main focus can work in a videogame is because the main form of storytelling in a videogame is exploration and combat. In fact, the larger perspective can be a good thing, as FFX forced me to be closer to Tidus's personal perspective than I would've liked. I liked the characters in FFXII more than the characters in most RPGs. That they weren't over the top actually made them seem more genuine to me. Vaan and Penelo aren't anything special, but the game does a good job of presenting them as what they are. Two young people who want to defend their home. Ashe could've been a little less distant, I suppose. But at least she wasn't a do-gooder for goodness sake, which is a step up from most Final Fantasy females. This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
~MV
|
Something the audience needs to know right off the bat for any good narrative story to work is this - What's the goal? What's the point? Why? The characters didn't have any discernible goals in the game, not in the 20 hours I played anyway. The only one who had even a minute semblance of a goal was Balthier, and even then it wasn't compelling enough to drive the story. In any (good) narrative piece, the audience has to know the reason why they are following these characters around. "I want to be a sky pirate and hit puberty finally" is not good enough. They need goals, specifically, they need a source of antagonism. A CLEAR source of antagonism. FFXII may have had sources of antagonism working against the protagonists, but fuck me if I had any clue what they were. You may at this point be citing the rival country or whatever that was against what they characters believed in. That's fine, but they weren't DIRECTLY affecting the characters, and thus, made this seem like a big waste of time. 20 hours in and not one reason to follow these characters around. FFX had Sin. FFVII had Sephiroth, FFVI had Kefka. All staple entries of the series. Why? A clear source of antagonism which gave us the inspiration to go ahead and kick ass and spend 53 hours leveling up. So, seeing as how I come from a film background, take my whole "source of antagonism" argument and multiply it TENFOLD for a videogame. The personal connection is crucial to a videogame that wants to have a deep story, because if it's not there, the game becomes incredibly tedious. You're actually in control of these people, make the interesting! In a film, you're watching these things. It's more forgivable since it's usually just a 120 minute experience that is (in good movies) well-written and has an overall point. But for an 80-hour game, do you honestly expect me to sit through that? My biggest problem was a big fat "WHY?!" Why am I moving these flat characters through this lush world? I had no reason to, and since the game wasn't any fun on top of that, I stopped playing it. *phew!* Now I'm not trying to antagonize you or anything, just showing you my perspective. Most amazing jew boots |
The angle I got from the game was that "The events unfolding are bigger then any one character or antagonist, but these people indirectly affect a larger portion of the world then that they even realize themselves. It was... I suppose the effect was that they were trying to show you that, instead of focusing on just the player's party and its immediate goals (Tag Along For the Ride, Save the World, Become a Sky Pirate, Get the Gold, Clear My Name, Save my Kingdom, etc.,) it was showing you the larger conflicts that while, not directly connected to what the player's party was doing, was affected in other ways regardless.
In that aspect the game's story was a fresh change. However Sprout's complaints stem from a common problem that unfortunately the development team scummed to: They lost focus. They tried too hard to show you the other effects felt by NPCs and Nations at a whole, that the party's goals and motivations took a backseat, and so you're left not being quite sure WHY you're going to a desert oil rig or fighting a renegade god's minions or whatever else you might run into. The likely cause of this was that Yasumi Matsuno fell Ill and internal politcal problems among the staff. So in order to save face and get the game out sometime before the next decade, they scrapped / swept under the rug a lot of exploratory cutscenes and character development which would have probably pushed the game's content to filling TWO DVDs. That's why I think they released the International Zodiac System later on, as it was the original intended method, but there wasn't enough time to put it in before the deadline, so they went with the simpler system seen in the game (One obvious example of what they probably were originally planning is that each character uses their OWN License Board, instead of it shared amongst everyone, and that the Guest Characters are controllable). So, it was a combination of rushing to finish the game, and a change of staff or something to that effect. Of course my personal explanation/theory probably won't satisfy many, and even I am still left wondering: What exactly happened in the middle of development to cause the year-long delay? I was speaking idiomatically. |
Megavolt, I agree with everything you've just a said. I would have liked the personal perspective if Tidus wasn’t such a poorly conceived and executed character, which is funny when fans tries to justify is whining by saying “what would you do if you was tossed into a foreign world”, well I know what I wouldn’t do and that’s whine about my parental issues and carrying on like a immature child when there’s a treat over the horizon.
I saw that “but for a video game, it’s pretty ridiculous” comment as one the most narrow minded comment in this tread so far, no real offensive. If it’s satisfying in a movie then it can be satisfying in a game, which often tries to emulate movies. The story FF12 was very clear from very beginning that Arcadia as a whole would be a source of antagonism, here’s a quote from the start of game regarding the situation of Dalmasca and futility of war against the oppressive Arcadian empire.
This game gave characters clear reasons for doing what did.
What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
Last edited by Kikoha Hater; Dec 30, 2007 at 12:24 AM.
Reason: deletes
|
I've seen it said to death, but FFXII isn't a game that spells it all out to you. And it isn't obligated to, it isn't a movie. It isn't a book. It isn't a comic book. It isn't a radio drama. It's a video game. Yes, Role Playing Games of this variety tend to have stories, but a lot of times I feel as if I'm reading comments about games where players have let their love of story cloud the overall fact that sometimes a game is lacking in something. The Lunar or Lufia titles sort of baffle me in this regard, even though I know there are quite a few fans on this board of them... but that's where I'm coming from, anyway.
I saw plenty of subtle reasons to care about the characters. What was Vaan doing traveling with a bunch of people entangled in events that were only related to him because of his citizenship? Would Ashe succumb to making decisions of lesser morales, justifying them as "for the greater good?" Would Basch's loyalty endure? Would it ever be in question? There were a lot of things established, and it just felt like any other unconventional Matsuno work. I wouldn't go around calling it brilliant, but a lot of complaints against it just sound like people saying "Spell it out to me." As already pointed out. FELIPE NO |
Underwhelming...I played the demo and I didn't like it and I can't say I care at all for the aesthetics of the game. Reading impressions from just about everyone indicates this game features most of the things I don't like about RPG's (weak characters, hit-or-miss gimmick battle system...gambits sound absolutely terrible) on top of that, so a nay for me.
How ya doing, buddy?
I'm taking over this town...
I'm screaming for vengenace... I'm shouting at the devil... I'm not dead and I'm not for sale... Ain't lookin' for nothin' but a good time... |
I understand, Rotor. I'm of the opinion that a game doesn't have to have a story to be successful - after all, we don't need a reason for Pac-man, some kind of food-deprived hockey puck, to be running from multicolored ghosts in a maze located in some dark and infinite limbo. The game stood the test of time because it had simple yet solid gameplay and widespread appeal. A game should be just that: a game. One with rules and programming that make it a solid, understandable, and enjoyable experience to anyone who picks it up. RPGs, though normally outside this boundary, are not necessarily excluded.
*However*, I also stand behind games that have good stories, and are able to give us an interesting plot in addition to gameplay. I'm sure you do too, 'cause everyone loves a good story (and why not have the whole package) but I think we can agree that it's not the end-all, be-all factor for a game, RPGs included. If a game were all about story, it would be a novel, right? In FFXII's case, I think Square was purposely trying to inject some brevity into the series' scripts, if only because they'd gotten so many mixed reviews for projects like FFX. It could have also had something to do with its many delays, like Dark Nation pointed out. While the lack of a strong narrative wasn't inherently bad, the biggest issue I had with it personally was the lack of comradere between the main characters. There has to be a sort of chemistry between the main protagonists for me to really get into it, with each one's strengths playing off another's weaknesses. I know there were reasons to care for the characters individually, like Vaan being an overall lost and uncertain young guy caught up in this flow he has no power against, and I appreciate that Square and Matsuno gave us a main character who wasn't just overly apathetic. It's actually been a year since I've played it, so sorry if I'm totally off-base with the characters here, I just can't remember too many instances where they functioned well as a true team dynamic, and I think that's a reason some people dislike the story as a whole (fair or unfair as it may be). Jam it back in, in the dark. |
You didn't like Balthier's mentoring of Vaan? Or Vaan's sort of initial unease around the royalty and Basch? The party was generally together due to actual convenience of common interest, and their relationships generally all stuck that way. Which I found quite refreshing. Again, it's not a contemporary character driven story, though I understand where you're coming from. As do I understand where others are coming from. I wish I didn't feel like some guy defending, oh say, Chrono Cross, in this regard.
There's nowhere I can't reach.
Last edited by Rotorblade; Jan 1, 2008 at 04:06 PM.
|
Good Chocobo |
Most amazing jew boots |
Don't feel like you're being outnumbered here, there are lots of people who share your opinion on the game (the entire nation of Japan, for starters). I like it too, I really do, and I played the heck out of it back when it came out, but my biggest hang-up was the characters and, in particular, there roles in the story. Penelo was confusing to me because I could never quite understand her role in the group, or her place in the story. Vaan's friend, sure, but why her specifically? Ashe was a fantastic design, a young lady who was strong and determined but not your stereotypical tough girl - but I could never quite figure out why she kept taking center stage with the story. If Vaan were the true protagonist, why was he in the background of so many important scenes? If he was the proverbial "you" in this game, why was his contribution so little? I hope you understand what I'm getting at - I don't *hate* the characters, I just don't fully understand some of them. I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body? |
I mean the feeling of the argument, I don't like self-affirmation of belief. I enjoy being challenged, it's a good thing. I hate Chrono Cross and this just feels like the shoe being on the other foot as far as discussions go. I see interest has died down, though.
Vaan is a cipher as far as being the "main character", the game slowly begins to constantly throw it in your face that Balthier is the "leading man." See, this obtuse "on-paper" explanation just doesn't really seem to cut it to me, but that's the best I can muster. I was speaking idiomatically. |
I never even saw Balthier as a "leading man". The entire game was largely about each individual, and was one of the first Final Fantasy's without a clear idea of, "this is who we should focus on". It's harder to relate to someone when everyone is given screen time.
What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now? |
FELIPE NO John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
*waves around Final Fantasy I*
What, you don't want my bikini-clad body? |
A> FF VI has a fairly obvious main character.
B> FFI doesn't count because it has a story comparable to Super Mario Bros. :-) Jam it back in, in the dark. |
FF VI most decidedly does not have a main character. Terra, if you want to argue her as the main character, becomes largely secondary in the latter half of the game. You can actually beat it without her. And Celes, who is the first character you play as in the latter half is hardly the lead character of the beginning. Locke has as much play time as any of them, and yet, he's not the main character.
Get real, sir. There's nowhere I can't reach. John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
My point about Balthier was that if you absolutely needed to point out a main character, he was it. He has the most relevance to being involved in most events, rather than the ciphers that are Vaan and Ashe. Especially given his relationship with Cid in the game. This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it. |
I assume when you say "second half" of the game, you specifically mean the destroyed world. I'm just assuming, though, since the ruined world happens well past the half way marker. Regardless, Terra has a very significant role then as well.
I think her over all importance to the story was pretty much cemented with her at the bow of the airship in the end. "Play time" is hardly an indicator as to who the main character of a plot is. Yuna is largely the central figure in FFX, but most of the game is played through Tidus.
I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?
Last edited by Django!; Dec 31, 2007 at 04:38 PM.
|
If Yuna is a main character, then so is Balthier. And that is Tidus' story, by the by. They spell that out for you. You know, repeatedly. And VI, sir, has a less single character involved story than XII does. XII is seen from a single person's perspective, unlike VI. No one is saying Terra isn't important to the story, I'm saying she's not the main character. And she's not. Because it's a cast based game. And she doesn't have any more significance to the second half of the game than any of the other characters not named GoGo or Umaro. You keep arguing your lost point, though. You're doing fine.
I was speaking idiomatically. John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
At that, XII is seen from one person's perspective, Deni? That's funny, I could have sworn we saw several scenes from beyond the eye sight of Vaan. Unless Vaan was magically there to see the things, say, Gabranth might have been doing at one point or another. There are plenty of games that have more than just the perspective of one character. How ya doing, buddy? |
Yes, there are cutaway cinematic scenes, but mind explaining to me the large chunks in XII where we play as someone other than Vaan? Because I must have missed that. You know, unlike in VI, where for huge chunks of the story, Terra isn't even in your party.
And no, it wouldn't. The first half you can call the Terra act, definitely. The second half though, you start as Celes, and then it very quickly becomes the everyone-else act. She's not a forced lead character for the secondary story beyond getting a few early recruits, then she promptly fades away into a secondary character. FELIPE NO John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD.
Last edited by No. Hard Pass.; Dec 31, 2007 at 04:51 PM.
|
Vaan is your player avatar, but you hardly see every cutscene from his vantage point. You're comparing inherent gameplay differences for an argument rooted and originated on story, where Vaan does indeed slip into the background for a minute or two. That's pretty rich.
What, you don't want my bikini-clad body? |
And my point has never been that XII has a hard, fixed main character. My point was that it's not the first game to have a cast/story based rather than the stationary lead character, a la FF VII. XII is much more fluid than a lot of games, but it's hardly an innovator of it. I said VI is less driven by a single character than XII is. And I hold that this is true. I never said it was a rigid main character. But keep arguing apples and oranges, Watts junior. It's working for you.
Jam it back in, in the dark. John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
Large chunks of the story played without her? The moment you lose her the party goes about finding her and opening up pages of her back story. Then Kefka creates the World of Ruin and then you have to deal with Terra reconciling with everything that's happened.
But your estimate, Chrono's involvement in Chrono Trigger is highly played down because you can choose to end the game without him. But we aren't gonna go that far. Are we? I don't think we should intermingle gameplay mechanics with story.
There's nowhere I can't reach.
Last edited by Django!; Dec 31, 2007 at 05:05 PM.
|
Where was I in this VI discussion? When did I say I disagree and just what line of thought are you on to go off accusing me of something as ridiculous as arguing "apples and oranges." I've only tried to address things about XII you felt something about and I felt I had knowledge to the contrary, or things you didn't quite understand.
Aaaanyway, you say that FFVI is less driven by one character than XII is and you NEVER stated your criteria. On what level, Deni? Because it certainly isn't a narrative one, and that's where you started as far as I've read up to this very point. That kind of copout isn't exactly fair to anyone invested in this. Edit: I'm getting the feeling what Deni said wasn't directed at me... please use quotes if this is the case? For us dumb people? This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it. |