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Welcome to the Exploding Garrmondo Weiner Interactive Swiss Army Penis. |
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My god, the story unfolds with a character as a catalyst. Clearly, they must be the protagonist. Nevermind the heaps and heaps of secondary characters who have the exact same effect. I mean, it's not like we spend a large portion of the game unlocking Locke's involvement, or Celes. Clearly XII has invented this literary trope and we must all bow to the genius that was XII. Fuck off. You're trying to turn this into "FF VI is A" argument when it's a long held concept that it is a cast based story, rather than having a single protagonist. Your argument that XII is this vaulting cast based game that nothing else has ever tried before is stupid. You want to like this piece of shit? Go for it. But don't act like it walks on water and created everything cool when it's pretty packaging of things we've seen time and time again.
How ya doing, buddy? John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
Jesus Christ, I can't tell who you're talking to, man.
I was speaking idiomatically. |
What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now? John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
Appreciate it. Guess I'll watch you all work this out.
FELIPE NO |
What, you don't want my bikini-clad body? John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD. |
So, this is where we're at? Ad hominem? Well then, let's keep things in plain English, then.
- Final Fantasy VI's story is spurred by, and ends with, Terra. 85% of the entire game is directly related to her. Side quests be damned. If your overall enjoyment of the game is heightened because of the short vignettes spread throughout the narrative, then I'm sure Square would be happy. That doesn't change the fact that the entire story starts, concerns, and ends with Terra.
To reiterate, I think you need to separate game play from story. Like I said above, you're welcome to offer a counter point. So far, you've just invested in ad hominem, strawman accusations, and hyperbole. Jam it back in, in the dark. |
Ok, I'm curious whether you've actually played this game or not. Although I'm not nearly the fanboy Deni is, I've played through this game multiple times and there are a number of gameplay and plot elements that I am very aware of. First of all, you are not stuck with a certain avatar you control throughout the game. i.e. Cloud in FF VII, Squall in FF VIII, Zidane in FF IX, Tidus in FF X, etc. (THIS ISN'T TO SAY THAT YOU HAVE MOMENTS IN OTHER FINAL FANTASY GAMES WHERE THE MAIN CHARACTER IS NOT IN YOUR PARTY. THIS IS TO SAY THAT YOU AREN'T FORCED TO USE TERRA WHEN SHE IS IN YOUR PARTY. THANK YOU.) In FF VI, you choose who leads your party, except at certain points in the story. (e.g. when you control Celes at the beginning of the world of ruin) This is the biggest difference between those games and FF VI. While all those games have central characters, the story is told from the perspective of the character / avatar you control. The difference is that FF VI has a much broader angle in which the player has a much more godlike perspective, watching the events unfold and having a certain hand in how they happen. This is a fundamental difference in gameplay that cannot be denied and is not merely a matter of opinion. Secondly, the argument can be made that there are at least 5 or 6 main leads in this game. Locke, Celes, Sabin, Cyan, and Edgar are as important and integral to the story as Terra is. In fact, as Deni points out, the second half of the game is more about these characters than it is about Terra. Overall, the director really attempted to create a balanced story which focused on many different characters, explaining all their different backgrounds. We end up with the three way story split in the world of balance where you get to experience some more intimate facets of the character's personalities, as well as learning about their backgrounds more. To say that Terra is unimportant to the story is a bad argument to make, but to say that FF VI should be renamed FF - Terra's Story is also shortsighted. As Deni has stated, she is largely unimportant in the World of Ruin, which focuses more heavily on Celes and the other characters. Terra has one important moment with the orphans, but you can technically play through the entire second half of the game without her in your party, not to mention much of the first half of the game as well. If we assume she is the sole lead (which she is not) this is something you cannot do with the leads in FF VII, VIII, IX, X. (I mean come on, you cannot neglect how important the opera scene is in FF III, and it centers primarily around Celes, not Terra.) In addition, each locale one visits tells something about the characters who have something related to the locale. e.g. The Village of the Magi and Shadow, The Imperial City and Celes, The Esper City and Terra. Your statement about the sidequests being irrelevant is extremely shortsighted. I mean one might be able to buy it, except that if we look at other FF games, the sidequests disproportionately involve the lead or focus primarily on him. (The Zack and Squall sidequest in FF VII, for instance) In comparison, the sidequests in FF VI focus disproportionately on characters aside from Terra, serving to explain their individual stories / struggles in depth. It provided a sense of completeness that I haven't seen in many games before or since.
However:
Django, to say Deni's plot synopsis is an 'ad hominem' argument shows an extreme deficit in cognition and reading comprehension on your part. Those who are not at war with the English language are much more capable of understanding the individual roles characters play in the simple plot of a videogame. If you manage to pass University English, I will credit it as an act of God and Denicalis will be forced to renounce his stance as an agnostic. There's nowhere I can't reach. |
Jesus Christ.
Alright. Here we go.
When is Terra away from your party the most? When she goes crazy. What do you do while she's away? You pretty much spend the next couple of hours getting her back, and dissecting her back story and that of the Espers. Then when you find her, you have the option to convince her to rejoin your party (this is roughly the beginning of the end game). Much of the plot is directly about her and her backstory and the character. You see, even though you can't see her, her character is still integral to the plot and influences the pacing.
You two act like because I don't share your opinion I some how find FFVI to be a bad game, when that's hardly the case at all.
By Deni's and your own rationalization, Chrono's importance to the Chrono Trigger story is severely reduced because you can play the game without him (much more than FFVI and Terra), you can beat the game without him, and because you can play without him. But I don't think anyone's gonna make that argument, are they? No, because it doesn't make sense to correlate game play and narrative. If you two are so obsessed with reading comprehension, then why are both of you intent on pinning things on me that I didn't say? Hell, I've quoted three arguments in this post that were credited to me, but were not presented by me. You yourself made a misguided attempt to create a strawman in your very own reply. Reading comprehension indeed. EDIT And just as a little mental exercise, the reason I don't think FFXII has a single main character is because, at least what I did play myself (which I would guess to be around 60% - 70%), most of the plot of the game was forwarded by interpretations of various characters that join with you along the way. Balthier's interpretations may have become more important, and more centered, as the story went along, but IMHO, much of the game I played tended to emphasis Basch's character over everyone elses. Most amazing jew boots
Last edited by Django!; Dec 31, 2007 at 07:42 PM.
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I'm glad you can recollect the major elements of Terra's story. Shame you can't remember the role of all the other, equally important characters. The point wasn't that Terra wasn't an important plot element in the game. The point is that the other characters are not secondary, but are equally important. Hence, the NARRATIVE in FF VI is cast driven.
You said that FF XII was the first game that was cast driven, not character driven. Deni said that FF VI is cast driven and you are trying to make a claim that Terra is the central character.
For the sake of limiting deliberation over pointless details, The argument is as follows: you are saying that the plot of FF VI is focused around a single character, namely Terra. All the other characters, irregardless of how important they are and now much coverage they get, are secondary, or side story. Terra is the central plot element, or character, because she is a catalyst that drives the plot forward at several key points in the game. Like Deni stated earlier, because she is a catalyst, you assume that by extension, she must be the key protagonist. FF VI is about Terra. The counterargument is as follows: Deni, myself, and other reasonable, literate individuals, are saying that other elements of the plot (including other characters) are large enough, that when removed, the story would be fundamentally changed. You would have to excise about 70 to 80% of the story if you were to to focus on Terra's role. Other characters, such as Celes and Locke are equally important. The game is bigger than Terra, a fact any reasonable individual cannot deny. This is a cast driven story. As an addendum to this, I am saying the gameplay reflects the intention of the director i.e. that this story isn't about one individual character, even if she is a catalyst that drives the story forward. In short, we do not believe that Terra is the key protagonist just because she is a catalyst. FF VI is about the quest of several brave individuals trying to save the world. I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body? |
Oh! Thanks for making this thread active guys, I only just now noticed the bizarre spelling in the thread title. Underwheiming indeed! Don't worry, I'll fix it.
I was speaking idiomatically. |
I hold FFXII and many of its aesthetic aspects in high regard when put alongside other games in the series, that includes the story. It absolutely had problems with pacing and depth, but the localization and general themes were well executed to a level that makes most games in the series, or most jrpgs all together, look childish. Not blazingly original overall, but not entirely common for the medium. I think the game is judged for its faults among rpg fans, they just tend to over exaggerate. I'll say that if the game mechanics featured were in a different game world not so wonderful, I would have never finished it. 6 out of 10. Seems about fair. What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now? so they may learn the glorious craft of acting from the dear leader
Last edited by Dr. Uzuki; Dec 31, 2007 at 10:54 PM.
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I didn't bring up Final Fantasy VI. Your buddy did. I said, and I'll quote it here for you, "I never even saw Balthier as a "leading man". The entire game was largely about each individual, and was one of the first Final Fantasy's without a clear idea of, "this is who we should focus on". It's harder to relate to someone when everyone is given screen time." Your cohort brought up FFVI, and I meekly replied, "FF VI has a fairly obvious main character. ;-)" It pretty much snowballed from there, since, obviously, the internet's obligated to feel about Final Fantasy VI the same way as you two rays of sunshine. I didn't say anything about "cast driven" or "character driven". Again, just because they aren't the main character doesn't mean they aren't relevant. I was right in saying that FFXII was one of the first games where it wasn't clear who moved the story along. Way more key points in the plot are furthered by the entire cast, compared to FFVI, in which most of the story was specifically about her. Then I started thinking. I thought maybe you guys didn't know what "protagonist" means, so I figured I'd look it up for you. Lo and behold, in a rare instance of fortune I discovered the general Internet Wisdom actually agrees with me.
There's no point in arguing with you two about it anymore. You can refer all further responses to the Wiki article. Regardless of what I type out, you're just gonna make something up and respond to that. Enjoy. Let's pretend that I said something about your mom. FELIPE NO
Last edited by Django!; Dec 31, 2007 at 11:00 PM.
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Man, this is turning into an ugly intarweb discussion.
I would have something to say if I didn't get owned so badly earlier. What, you don't want my bikini-clad body? |
From where I'm standing, I'm not missing out on much.
Jam it back in, in the dark. |
DJANGO!!! SUX LOLOLOL:
Anyway, back on topic with the thread. I have yet to play Final Fantasy XII. Honestly, I have become so disenchanted with Square-Enix that I don't really care to play their games anymore. They've really gone downhill since the Playstation days and they've tried to make money more off of the names of their franchises than based on developing quality software. The couple of releases for GC were abysmal at best, and I've not been particularly impressed with any of their latest games that haven't been ports of older software. For a company that used to be one of my favorite third party developers, it is pathetic that I can only view them with jaded skepticism, something that, for me, really started with FF X-2 and the release of FF Chrystal Chronicles on the GC. Until I play FF XII, I can't say for sure whether or not I will like it, but I am definitely prepared to be underwhelmed or 'underweared', whatever that means. There's nowhere I can't reach. |
Also: FINAL FANTASY 6: SERIOUS BUSINESS This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it. |
I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body? |
I didn't think the game was that bad. Sure, it had some issues with the story/characters and pacing but I just couldn't help but love the world of Ivalice. I haven't really finished it yet (cause my friend came and took back his PS2 not so long ago), but the 50 hours I spent were not badly spent (I liked the MMORPGesque feel it had). I can say I liked it more than FFX, because I thought FFX felt very linear and cheesy (I just know someone's gonna kick my ass for this statement), but that's probably the English translation (VA ) to blame.
Most amazing jew boots |
What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now? |
I was so excited about the new battle system that the story problems didn´t really bother me so much. When FF12 came out I hated seperate battle screens and all those wasted minutes of loading and waiting in games with frequent random encounters.
I´d like to test the impact of the Zodiac Job System in the new version, but I need every free hour for P3 - with a new job system it´s unlikely it supports old save games. How ya doing, buddy?
Everything´s getting better.
Nothing´s getting good. |