Convert to Islam, or die.

I'm not really sure if this is better suited to the political palace or here. Mods if you think it needs to be moved feel free and sorry for any inconvenience.

At any rate, if you've been watching the news then you probably heard about the two journalists that got kidnapped somewhere over in Iraq by a group of extremists. You also may have heard of several Al-Quieda members who released a tape with an American-Saudi man who also urged americans to basically "convert or die." Anyways, thier account stated that the kidnappers held guns to the backs of thier heads, ordered them to renounce God (and what I would assume is ties to thier country as well) and basically convert to Islam on the spot or die right there.

To me, an act like that almost seems ghoulishly similar to the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades by comparison but it also brings up a good question:

If you were in the same high pressure life threatening situation and someone demanded that you convert to Islam (or any other religion for that matter) or die by a bullet to the back of your head and you had no way out, would you renounce God or whatever your beliefs may be just to escape alive? Or would you stand by your convictions and what you believe in - ultimately taking the bullet and/or hoping/praying that you get out of the situation unscathed? The journalists renounced what they believed in to make it out alive, do you think they made the right decision or the wrong one? How do you see it?

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No way on Earthl would I convert. I'm an athiest, or possibly agnostic, I'm not sure. I plan to stay that way unless I make the choice, and that is a bullet that I would be proud to take, knowing that I died without kowtowing.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Soluzar

No way on Earthl would I convert. I'm an athiest, or possibly agnostic, I'm not sure. I plan to stay that way unless I make the choice, and that is a bullet that I would be proud to take, knowing that I died without kowtowing.

What? If you don't believe there's anything after death anyway, why on earth wouldn't you ''convert'' to Islam to prolong your damn life? Is that some internet ninja code of honour, or what?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Soluzar

No way on Earthl would I convert. I'm an athiest, or possibly agnostic, I'm not sure. I plan to stay that way unless I make the choice, and that is a bullet that I would be proud to take, knowing that I died without kowtowing.

As an athiest, one who doesn't really give a fuck about any of that religious horsepoo or buys into that afterlife stuff, wouldn't you, you know, PLAY ALONG or something so they didn't shoot you in the face?

Edit: Oh Hi Aard. Ahaha. Great minds and all that, right?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Colonel Skills

As an athiest, one who doesn't really give a fuck about any of that religious horsepoo or buys into that afterlife stuff, wouldn't you, you know, PLAY ALONG or something so they didn't shoot you in the face?

Not really. My beliefs are as important to me as any those of any average religious person are to me. I'm a proud man, and I won't take orders from anyone I didn't agree to serve.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Personally I believe in God, but not the God that the media and televangelists created. It's really hard to say what you would do in that situation unless you've already experienced it. It's easy to say you would take a bullet now but when it comes right down to it I think most would convert. I can't even tell you what I would do. Ideally I would take a bullet for my beliefs, but who knows what would really happen?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I'm an atheist so I would just play along. If there's no God then it's not like I'm sinning against someone or not. I can't really "die for atheism" and then be proud about it, what.

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I'd convert in a second, although I'm already technically Muslim. Irrelevant though, if someone stuck a gun to my head, or hell, even threatened me with much, I'd switch to get out of a situation. My beliefs aren't worth my skin for me.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Devo

Haha, have you had a girlfriend yet?

You act like taking orders from women is the most natural thing in the world. (laugh track)

But seriously, why is that?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I'd renounce, sneak up at night, steal the guns of the kidnappers and shoot them.

Then I'd simply go back to church on a regular Sunday and hope that nobody puts a gun to my head.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Devo

Haha, have you had a girlfriend yet?

I do have a girlfriend, as it happens. I'm thirty years old, it's to be expected by now. If I choose to do what she would like me to do, doesn't that fall under "agree to serve" in your opinion. I prefer to think that I do what my girfriend would like me to do out of love than out of obligation though. I'd also presume she does the things she does for the same reason. If it felt like taking orders, I'd get out of there. I'm responding to what I hope was a joke post in a serious manner because I don't know how else to respond. Of course, I'm taking it as a joke, because I don't think anything was really meant by it.

I don't expect many people to agree that it's worth my life to preserve my freedom, and I really hope that I never need to make that choice, but it is how I would feel compelled to act. I just don't take orders under threat of force. My life isn't worth more to me than my values. I'm not sure what impression that post gave everyone, though. I "agree to serve" various people in life, and I do so with a cheerful attitude and a good grace. The point being that it's my choice. I could choose to do otherwise, in most cases.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Soluzar

I don't expect many people to agree that it's worth my life to preserve my freedom, and I really hope that I never need to make that choice, but it is how I would feel compelled to act. I just don't take orders under threat of force. My life isn't worth more to me than my values.

Do you have any logical reasoning for your belief? I mean, okay, freedom... Even if you are forced to do something (anything), you still have way more freedom than if you are just plain dead (as death is a state in which your options are limited to zero by default, more or less).

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Aardork

Do you have any logical reasoning for your belief? I mean, okay, freedom... Even if you are forced to do something (anything), you still have way more freedom than if you are just plain dead (as death is a state in which your options are limited to zero by default, more or less).

I suppose that the answer to your question would depend on how logical you find the notion that if I did falsely convert, to satisfy my captors, I would always have to live with that knowledge, knowing what it means in my value system. The concept of remaining true to yourself is a keystone of my life. I like to maintain a sense of healthy self-esteem, and the knowledge that I faked a conversion to Islam, even in order to save my life would be something that would make me deeply uncomfortable. It would eat away at me.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Seeing as I am a fan of living and the capability to make decisions, I would opt for appeasing these religious extremists. I mean, they're giving me a very simple decision. Life or death? I'll take life.

If you don't have anything to believe in, you're maintaining the only thing you have. We're all dishonest at times, so why the hell not be dishonest in a situation where your life is on the line? Tell a lie, GTFO, and then resume your normal life! For me, a lie doesn't really dig away at me, unless I know that it will have a largely negative impact on others. In this case, the truth will more than likely never be found out by these jerks, so it couldn't hurt them. In addition, since I don't give a shit about said party, they deserve the additional spite that would occur on the (unlikely) discovery of truth.

The journalists definitely made the right decision, and even if they had certain religious backgrounds, I don't think a choice like that would be hard. They didn't want to be martyred. Unless somehow their announcement of their faith through death was broadcasted and notable to the public, people would just see it as another "ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS KILLED MORE JOURNALISTS TODAY". Then this discussion wouldn't exist. This is an uninformed statement that has no sources, but there's a possibility that other kidnapped journalists could have went down a similar path, and accepted their brutal death, but their decision to do so would be unknown to the general public.

Anyway, the questions posed have an easy answer that I would say a majority of people would follow.

How ya doing, buddy?

I could tell them any damn thing that they want to hear.

"Do you believe that Emeril LaGasse is the true lord and savior"
"Yeah sure"

It's one thing to "convert", it's another to actually believe. And no one knows what that is but you.

FELIPE NO

I'd "convert". So what if a guy asks me to believe whatever fairy tales he believes are true? All organized religions are shams in my book anyway. If whatever god that might actually exists finds that this is enough to send me to hell, then he already has plenty to choose from if he wants a justification in order to do that.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

If I remember correctly, the choices aren't that strict when coming under Islamic rule.

There is a third option, dhimmitude.

This state of being gives allowance to those who refuse to convert, but with a price, their freedoms. Those under dhimmitude can live amongst Muslim society, but are treated and considered second-class citizens. Laws for dhimmis are much harsher than laws for muslims, miscegnation is out of the question, and sometimes, in the worst case, you must wear identification on your person to show to the world that you aren't a muslim.

Sounds attractive, no?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Uhmm, why am I reminded of... No, wait, saying that would instantly transform this thread into a burning trainwreck, what with Godwin's law and all that.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

The scenario doesn't dictate for me to actually mean it. If people threatened me to change my beliefs on the spot or to die, then I'd simply lie about it. Think about it. Are they dimwitted to believe that I'll suddenly accept a new religion on spot? Using Islam as an example, the passage of becoming a Muslim wouldn't be pure, because I was forced into it. As a result, I wouldn't mean it in the first place.

So would I save my life to put on a show by pretending? Absolutely. It's not like I'll live out my days as a Muslim. That would only happen if I choose to. If I was forced, I'd deliver an Oscar worthy performance, and then when I'm free - I'll discard it. In doing so, I wouldn't be scorning my beliefs at all.

Nobody can truly take my beliefs away. Whether with a gun or some other weapon, it won't happen. Only I can make that decision. To save my life, I'll put on a show, but when it comes down to it, my beliefs will remain.

To me, life is a gift. If I just received the chance to continue living and believing in my Faith, but I had to pretend as if I were discarding it, then so be it.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Getting shot in the back of the head isn't a bad way to go. Barring considerations of my friends and family ("Should I do anything to prolong my life for their sake?" and thoughts of that nature), I think I'd take my chances on them pulling the trigger. I suspect that some kind of self-preservation instinct would kick in and triumph over whatever life philosophy I had subscribed to up to that point, but I'd like to think that I'd refuse.

Besides, in a situation like that, where I'd feel pretty much fucked regardless (imprisoned in some location, as opposed to a man just sneaking up behind me on the street with a gun), I don't think I'd be just "getting away" by complying anyway. As I recall, there are some videos of fine folks who got their heads hacked off even after they said whatever their kidnappers wanted--though I don't think any of them were asked to convert.

Now, if they start laying out heated, pointy objects or electrical wires, then I'll probably say whatever they want.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Words really hold no meaning if the speaker doesn't truly wish to say them. If you don't convert you're going against one of the basic instincts of life, survival. Unless you're a religious or prideful zealot, there is no basis or logic in it. To me, even if I were religious (which I'm not), martrydom is unappealing because honestly, you can repent the rest of your life if you really feel like it. Any righteous god would forgive you, right? I mean...God's a cool dude, he understands.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by phatmastermatt

Words really hold no meaning if the speaker doesn't truly wish to say them. If you don't convert you're going against one of the basic instincts of life, survival. Unless you're a religious or prideful zealot, there is no basis or logic in it. To me, even if I were religious (which I'm not), martrydom is unappealing because honestly, you can repent the rest of your life if you really feel like it. Any righteous god would forgive you, right? I mean...God's a cool dude, he understands.

You know what...considering i'm christian and all...(not really but who is?)...i've always been wanting toask..isn't it the same freaking god? Jews, muslims, and chriistians all believe in the same one...so converting isjust basically like replacing broadband for dsl, you'll still get to the internet right? I don't know but to answer the question, I'd lie my ass off...I think god would need living breathing human beings to sacrifice virgins to and not martyrs. Live to pray another day i guess.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Technically, they all worship the same God. That's about the only part they agree on. The rest is where the Crusade/Jahad browbeating comes from.

I say switch, switch back after they leave, and call it a day. Keeping your heart beating is the most important thing.

FELIPE NO

I dont know many people who would rather die than convert religion. Its so stupid that a person would force their beliefs on another person like that but I wonder how they'd expect you to be genuinely converted by the barrel of a gun, you'll obviously do anything you can to avoid death.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Devo

You can't remain true to yourself if you're dead. It would eat away at you? I'm having a hard time believing that you'd risk everything just to "preserve your value system", when honestly it isn't going anywhere, only for the time you're a captive. I'll reiterate that you can go back to your belief system once the ordeal is over. Is it really worth dying and hurting the ones you love?

How about I just admit that you make some good points, but I maintain that you don't understand how great of a resistance I have to being forced into anything? Does that work?

Jam it back in, in the dark.