The Middle East spirals out of control!

Originally Posted by Lord Styphon

While moral considerations are nice and everything, just how far do they go? Some people may stand up and tell the government it's wrong, but they're a minority, and the government will do everything it can (which is a great amount) to weaken and neutralize them. Most people lack the will to stand up in the face of that, and will give up their position to get the pressure off their back. Those that don't give in will be of no concern; everyone else either agrees or is keeping quiet, making the government right by default.

Yeah, the short answer is "not very damn far."

The long answer is that it's better to at least consider whether or not something's wrong, even if there's nothing you can do to change it. Otherwise we'd all end up accepting everything that our government throw at us, no matter how outrageous. The answer to "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" is "Every one of us - if we don't want to live in a world we can't accept."

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Its nice to consider if something is morally wrong or not, but if you keep quiet about it, who's gonna point out the huge elephant in the room? Really there is an elephant, but according to the government, there is none. Something like 1984 where if you believe you're flying and I believe you're flying, then you are flying... even if it objectively is false. Even if the people in the USA were disgusted by their government's action, they sit in the corner twiddling their thumbs... perhaps watching some good'ole television. Most people don't even care though, or they simply go along with anything the government or media will present to them. Its a great illusion how the media presents stories and how the government words what they say, and works great in trapping people who somewhat care about what's going on in the world.

Another great tactic is diversion, divide & conquer. Republican/Democrat, abortion/anti-abortion, one sports team/another freaking sports team. Morals like to go out the window when you are trying to win, and also promote a distrust between people. Who can speak their morals when the country is constantly divided between issues? As Styphon said, any small group that is likely to form will be neutralized. So, just because there is a elephant in the room doesn't mean there is. If you are forced to hold your tongue, or no one will listen to you, that elephant doesn't exist at all.


As for Israel/Lebanon, I don't think its a matter of IF Lebanon wants to stop Hizbollah, but really a matter of CAN they stop them. It is an unfortunate consequence that all parties involved are being so stubborn and pretty stupid. Israel has traded captives for the release of prisoners before, but they seem completely unwilling now. Two years ago they did it, and even further back it has occured, so this isn't some sort of new event that no one could have expected. Hizbollah probably doesn't know what to do after Israel said they would not barter for the prisoners. Either way, the stubborness is overwelming... this conflict is so pointless and could have been stopped instantly had either side REALLY wanted to avoid a war. Now that it has gone on this long however, I don't see either Israel or Hizbollah letting up.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

A war is precisely what Hezbollah wanted. Keep in mind that the Israelis were attacking Gaza two weeks before the kidnappings along the border because Hamas kidnapped that Israeli corporal. It was clear from the get go that Israel wasn't going to tolerate another soldier abduction.

Hezbollah knew that Israel had no choice but to retaliate, which means that ultimately Hezbollah's goal was to start another war and gain local political influence by resisting everybody's favorite badguy.

I was speaking idiomatically.

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Is it tragic that innocent Lebanese are dying because Hezbollah crossed the line? Absolutely, but Hezbollah's decades of terror have also been a severe tragedy. If Israel is taking this opportunity to end the global threat that Hezbollah represents, then by all means we should be supporting their actions.

I totally see where you're coming from but I have to peacefully disagree. Hezbollah has caused terror for innocent people, but they probably wouldn't be around if it weren't for Israel's presence in Lebanon in the first place. And regardless of how ruthless Hezbollah has been in the last 20 years, Israel has been worse. They have possibly the worst human rights crime in history (right after South Africa, and of course, the US). Hezbollah and the PLO pale in comparison.

It's tragic that innocent Israelis and Lebanese are being killed, but this is going to continue to happen if Israel keeps occupying other countries. And it won't get any better if the UNITED STATES keeps supporting Israel with money and weapons to do this.

God forbid if Syria and Iran get involved in this conflict, both Israel and the United States are going to be in serious trouble.

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A war is precisely what Hezbollah wanted. Keep in mind that the Israelis were attacking Gaza two weeks before the kidnappings along the border because Hamas kidnapped that Israeli corporal. It was clear from the get go that Israel wasn't going to tolerate another soldier abduction.

I don't doubt that Hezbollah wanted to start trouble. Their main objective is the complete destruction of Israel. But the few Israeli captives that Hamas had didn't even come close to the 8,000 to 9,000 prisoners (some being Lebanese) that the Israelis were holding.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I'll assume your last sentence is sarcasm Onyx, neither Iran nor Syria can handle the US as an adversary, let alone have Israel added to the equation.

But you got it all right and i totally agree with you about Hezbullah, they're NOT terrorists per se, they just terrorise Israelis who in my opinion are just getting some of what they deserve. I'm talking military and not innocent civilians, of course.

It's a war and always has been, civilians will be lost, and that stands correct for Lebanese and Israelis (Contrary to what i posted here b4 =D)
It's all a vicious selective process in action in my view, the strong/most fit will survive. Like it or not deep down we are still very much animals... =/

FELIPE NO

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They have possibly the worst human rights crime in history (right after South Africa, and of course, the US).

What the fuck is this shit? Worst in History? Apartheid was pretty bad, but not even the Afrikaners could touch Kim Jong, the Khmer Rhouge, Stalin, etc., etc., etc. Even if you're speaking in modern terms there are a myriad of worse human rights offenders than Israel and the United States.

Israel withdrew from Lebanon at the turn of the millenium. Hezbollah has no reason to exist anymore other than to serve the regional goals of the Syrians and Iranians, and the reason this war started was because Hezbollah needs to re-assert the need for its existence lest the Lebanese government starts a crackdown.

If you honestly want to go back in time to play the blame game we can start this whole mess with Britain and the UN for founding Israel.

Saying that the Israelis are the "badguys" is ludicrous. Israelis aren't blowing up cafes and busses. Israelis aren't going into other countries and abducting their soldiers. Israelis don't launch rockets unprovoked into neighboring nations.

Israel has always acted in a reactionary measure, and comparing the Israeli government to Apartheid is ludicrous. Arabs in Israel have the same basic rights as Jews, and if the Palestinians desire independance while also harboring and electing elements hostile to Israel then how can Israel act in any other way? You think that if Israel stops reacting to terror that the attacks will stop? You think that if they make a total withdrawal from Palestine that Hamas will just call it a day and go back to doing something constructive?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

In a word Bradylama : Yes

They want nothing but Israel away from the Holy Mosque and no abuse.

You are very misinformed if you think otherwise. I speak to you from the middle east and i have been to Palestine.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Then why is it that despite Mashal's claim that Hamas would stop armed resistance that the 1988 charter is still in effect? Keep in mind also that Hamas has threatened to start beheadings if attempts are made to arrest members of their cabinet, regardless of however many crimes they've commited.

Why would Mashal tell the Egyptians that Hamas would never change, then tell the Russians a week later that they would stop armed resistance?

It's all a bunch of bullshit. A gradual reduction of intimidation since the offer of humda in 2004 (a ten-year truce). You're pretty fucking gullible for swallowing that trite.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Yes, okay, it's objectionable that Hamas officials say one thing to one administration and something else to another.

I guess that must make them some sort of political party or something. More than just degenerate towelheads with a rudimentary geopolitical understanding at best.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

So long as Hamas maintains its militant wing, they are a terrorist organization. Does Labor have its own militia there in aussie land? Do they have turf wars with the Conservatives or kidnap New Zealanders?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Bradylama

So long as Hamas maintains its militant wing, they are a terrorist organization.

Horseshit..

Why does Israel have a military force then? It's only essential for a country's government. And since Hamas made government it aint unjustifieable to consider their "militia" part of the government's forces.

Them making office disvalidates any "terrorist" claims, not by definition.
And certainly not by action.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by CryHavoc

Horseshit..

Why does Israel have a military force then? It's only essential for a country's government. And since Hamas made government it aint unjustifieable to consider their "militia" part of the government's forces.

Them making office disvalidates any "terrorist" claims, not by definition.
And certainly not by action.

Except that you are comparing the governent controlled military of a soveriegn nation to the military of a ideological, non-governmentally-controlled political faction. Its like saying that Kadima can have a military of its own because the US government does, and Kadima has seats in the Israeli government.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by CryHavoc

And since Hamas made government it aint unjustifieable to consider their "militia" part of the government's forces.

Yes it is. The Palestinian government and Hamas are seperate entities, and the military wing of Hamas answers to the Hamas leadership, not the Palestinian government. Similarly, Fatah militias answer to the Fatah leadership, not the Palestinian government.

The Israeli Defense Forces, on the other hand, report to the Israeli government, regardless of whether Labor, Likud or Kadima controls it. The Palestinian Authority security forces, which are distinct from militias answer to the Palestinian government, regardless of whether Fatah or Hamas control it.

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Them making office disvalidates any "terrorist" claims, not by definition.

Sinn Fein had had electoral success for decades. Did that make them stop being a terrorist organization, even while their military wing continued to conduct terrorist actions?

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Bradylama

So long as Hamas maintains its militant wing, they are a terrorist organization. Does Labor have its own militia there in aussie land? Do they have turf wars with the Conservatives or kidnap New Zealanders?

Actually, I'd say the only thing holding back certain Sydney electorates are the firearms laws. Guns or not (and indeed an entire sea or not), the science of landgrabbing will never leave humanity, but just get cleaner. Our constitution still provides for New Zeleand's becoming a seventh state.

I don't really follow the A-I conflict, mainly because of its homogeneity, but I think the Israeli government's obliged to accord Hamas many of the same courtesies it would the governing bodies of Jordan, Canada or the UN, despite its militant wing. It's not an easy juggle, no, but that's what the circumstances dictate. Shit, it's in Israel's best interests to take care of Palestine. Extremist organisations die when their recruitment pool realises it's not worth saddling up for a remote grudge of history when they've a home that they know will stand for more than six months, central heating, clean water, a secondary school and a decent soccer ground.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Lord Styphon

Yes it is. The Palestinian government and Hamas are seperate entities, and the military wing of Hamas answers to the Hamas leadership, not the Palestinian government. Similarly, Fatah militias answer to the Fatah leadership, not the Palestinian government.

The Israeli Defense Forces, on the other hand, report to the Israeli government, regardless of whether Labor, Likud or Kadima controls it. The Palestinian Authority security forces, which are distinct from militias answer to the Palestinian government, regardless of whether Fatah or Hamas control it.

That is true, styphon, very true, but that's just a technicality considering that the palestinian government has no (effective) millitary force, so this kinda replaces it in role by , how should i say this; Heirarchy (?)

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Sinn Fein had had electoral success for decades. Did that make them stop being a terrorist organization, even while their military wing continued to conduct terrorist actions?

Again true, and i concede that i was mistaken saying it like that, what i meant was that by definition a "terrorist" is someone working without 'attachment' to anything of authority and mostly are 'ghost' organizations/systems that have no clear head, not the act of "causing terror to people", because if it was the act of causing terror then Israel most certainly fits that bill.
If you are informed of both sides' work you will probably agree that none of them can't be blamed much, we have more news sources here (Not including the stupidly biased AL-Jazeera or the ignorant CNN) these sources report horrible stuff done by both parties, and seeing as the very presence of Israel is disputable (I know the propaganda demands it be seen as a given, remember they were declared by war and deliberate "take-over", that isn't a good foundation for a country, and that goes for any other country that's done the same) the scales kinda tip towards Hamas being a lot more on the "reaction" based side.

Who the hell said Israel only reacts? Every single daily advance Israel makes is pure provokation, if for examplei flick you in the nose then kick you in the crotch, and you punch me in the face and i scream out loud i'm ALWAYS gonna seem like the good guy. That's what Israel does. You have to be there to judge, and i've been there, Israelis aren't reacting to anything, there's alot of "out-of the blue" scenarios.

Most amazing jew boots

That's clever. Twist the meaning of terrorist to make Israel look like a terrorist state!

That's just beyond stupidity. First of all, Hezbollah has been declared a terrorist organization by the US, EU, and the UN. Israel has not. And honestly, comparing Israel to terrorists? Are you serious? Israel has done NOTHING to these people short of existing, but now you cry foul when they attack after being provoked. Israel IS reactionary, but not after every single attack as you'd want to believe. Do you think Israel would be attacking Lebenon by now had Hezbollah not kidnapped their soldiers? Of course not.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Alright, let's pretend for a second here that Hamas isn't a terrorist organization. That they're a legitimate governing body, and that their actions reflect directly upon the Palestinian government.

Does the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier not then constitute an act of war? If Hamas is no longer a fringe element, and is the recognized authority in Palestine, then doesn't that mean that they must be held accountable for their actions as a governing body?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Way to kill eight Canadians, Israel.

Of course if we were America we would have nuked them for that. Sigh, can the world just step in already.



I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

How do you expect anyone but "rogue countries" to step in with all the support Israel gets from the U.S.?

I was speaking idiomatically.

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What the fuck is this shit? Worst in History? Apartheid was pretty bad, but not even the Afrikaners could touch Kim Jong, the Khmer Rhouge, Stalin, etc., etc., etc. Even if you're speaking in modern terms there are a myriad of worse human rights offenders than Israel and the United States.

If you measure human rights in the number of lives lost, yes, there are a myriad of countries that are worse than Israel…and maybe worse than the United States. We could argue all day about who is worse, but the government of Israel has been just as bad as Kim Jong, the Khmer Rouge, and Stalin. Maybe not in the number of lives lost, but in everything else. Israelis are guilty of many of the same human rights crimes.

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Saying that the Israelis are the "badguys" is ludicrous. Israelis aren't blowing up cafes and busses. Israelis aren't going into other countries and abducting their soldiers. Israelis don't launch rockets unprovoked into neighboring nations.

I don’t think it’s ludicrous at all. Maybe they don’t bomb cafes or abduct other countries’ soldiers. But they do intentionally bomb civilian districts and abduct/kill innocent civilians instead. Which is worse?

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Israel has always acted in a reactionary measure, and comparing the Israeli government to Apartheid is ludicrous.

Yes, but a “reactionary manner” isn’t invading a country, abusing human rights, and then attempting to occupy that country. It’s not like Israel is just sitting around baking cookies and doing good. It’s constantly stirring up shit with the Arab world and the Israeli government knows that the Arabs will attack them. They then use that as an excuse to “respond in a reactionary manner.” In this case, it’s the “removal of Hezbollah”, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Israel sticks around. Just by looking at Israel’s last two invasions of Lebanon, their intentions are clear.

And comparing Israel to Apartheid isn’t ludicrous at all. Not from a human rights perspective. You don’t have to look very hard to see the comparison. The Israelis took the Palestinians’ land, built a huge fence around them, and robbed them of their humanity. From a human-rights perspective, Israel and South Africa aren’t so different. Sure, the Israelis aren’t fueled by the super-racist ideology that the Afrikaners are, but essentially, it’s the same thing.

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Arabs in Israel have the same basic rights as Jews, and if the Palestinians desire independence while also harboring and electing elements hostile to Israel then how can Israel act in any other way?

No. Sure, Arabs and Jews have equal rights, but that doesn’t mean anything, really. Whether or not they HAVE rights is not the question. Everyone has equal rights under international law. The real question is whether or not these rights are being upheld. And the reality is that Israel continues to abuse these rights. We can get technical if you want, but we’re talking about quite a few international laws and regulations that Israel has purposely been broken in the name of “retaliation.”

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I'll assume your last sentence is sarcasm Onyx, neither Iran nor Syria can handle the US as an adversary, let alone have Israel added to the equation.

I wasn’t being sarcastic. A war with Iran and Syria is going to have serious political, economical, and social consequences. See what happens if Iran sets up a blockade or disrupts the Straits of Hormuz (which is south of them, and where much of the world’s oil is transported). Think about what will happen to the American morale if we go to another war. We’re already stretched out pretty thin militarily. What if other countries get involved and begin to re-evaluate their partnership with the United States? I don’t have to spell it out anymore for you, do I?

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That's just beyond stupidity. First of all, Hezbollah has been declared a terrorist organization by the US, EU, and the UN. Israel has not. And honestly, comparing Israel to terrorists? Are you serious? Israel has done NOTHING to these people short of existing, but now you cry foul when they attack after being provoked. Israel IS reactionary, but not after every single attack as you'd want to believe.

I’m not going to attack your claims, because I think your reasoning is flawed. Israel is an ally of the United States. Just because it doesn’t meet the US’s standards for terrorism doesn’t mean that it can’t be a terrorist government. It’s strictly political. Also, please name a big incident where the Israelis did not react with military might. I’m just curious.

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Do you think Israel would be attacking Lebenon by now had Hezbollah not kidnapped their soldiers? Of course not.

Maybe, but it didn’t help that Israel was already holding hundreds of Lebanese prisoners. Hezbollah’s not entirely to blame for this conflict. After all, in Israel, hostage-taking is legal. Just remember that Israel has been in Lebanon long before Hezbollah. This isn't the first time this has happened.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

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That's perfectly correct, but let's not forget the fact that the Hezbollah is a home-made threat created by Israel. If it wasn't for the occupation of Lebanon in 1982, Hezbollah would probably never have gained the support and influence it has today. If anything, the deliberate invasion of Lebanon serves as the ultimate reason for Hezbollah's existence and will even help it in gaining momentum.

If you read the Prospect of Peace in the Middle East Thread:

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http://www.gamingforce.com/forums/po...ddle-east.html

You would understand that Israel's original invasin of Lebanon was based on terrorist shelling Israel. They did not invade for the hell of it back then and did not attack for the hell of it today.

Double Post:

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God forbid if Syria and Iran get involved in this conflict, both Israel and the United States are going to be in serious trouble.

Not really. Israel is capable of handling the majority of the Middle East as they had demonstrated n their war of indepedence (more like war for right to exist) and the 6-Day War, and the Yom Kippur War. If their existence came into question again, they have atomics that they can use.

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If you honestly want to go back in time to play the blame game we can start this whole mess with Britain and the UN for founding Israel.

If you want to go even furthur back in time, blame Abraham for not listening to God.

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They want nothing but Israel away from the Holy Mosque and no abuse.

You are very misinformed if you think otherwise. I speak to you from the middle east and i have been to Palestine.

Brady and I do not live in the Middle East but there is substantial evidence that points to the fact that Israel would still be under assault if they withdrew from Palestine entirely. The PLO charter who ironically is much much more moderate than Hamas states that their goal is to keep fighting until the "Zionist" nation no longer exist.

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Shit, it's in Israel's best interests to take care of Palestine. Extremist organisations die when their recruitment pool realises it's not worth saddling up for a remote grudge of history when they've a home that they know will stand for more than six months, central heating, clean water, a secondary school and a decent soccer ground.

Israel takes better care of Palestinian refuges than Palestine would if the role situations were reversed. No matter what Israel does, as long as school textbooks and the Imams and the Mosques continue to preach death to Israel - nothing can be done. It's really kill or be killed and the military action is precipitated from the Palestinian/Hezbollah end.

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and seeing as the very presence of Israel is disputable (I know the propaganda demands it be seen as a given, remember they were declared by war and deliberate "take-over", that isn't a good foundation for a country, and that goes for any other country that's done the same) the scales kinda tip towards Hamas being a lot more on the "reaction" based side.

At some point though, you must see things the way they are and move on with your lives. Over two generations has passed since the founding of Israel. Why are 16 year old's blowing themselves up for events that happened in that happened 60 years ago? Israel exists now and will continue to exist.
The arab nations need to get off Israel's back. Were not giving America back to the indians, or california back to mexico, or paying reperations to the Blacks.

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Way to kill eight Canadians, Israel.

Of course if we were America we would have nuked them for that. Sigh, can the world just step in already.

People in a warzone die regardless of nationality. And yes the word has tried to intervene. The world's terms are "Return Israel's soldiers and stop shelling them". Very cut and dry.

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I don’t think it’s ludicrous at all. Maybe they don’t bomb cafes or abduct other countries’ soldiers. But they do intentionally bomb civilian districts and abduct/kill innocent civilians instead. Which is worse?

It's not even CLOSE the ratio of restraint exercised by Israel versus it's relative military might. They ARE dropping leaflets warning of impending attack zones. Think Hamas has that courtesy? Hezbollah? You think if Hezbollah had a nuke, they wouldn't of used it on Israel already and be picky of military targets?
Thank you.

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It’s constantly stirring up shit with the Arab world and the Israeli government knows that the Arabs will attack them. They then use that as an excuse to “respond in a reactionary manner.” In this case, it’s the “removal of Hezbollah”, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Israel sticks around. Just by looking at Israel’s last two invasions of Lebanon, their intentions are clear.

What did Israel do to precipitate the attack by Hezbollah? The Arab countries didnt HAVE to attack Israel. But Israel HAS to respond. See the difference?

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No. Sure, Arabs and Jews have equal rights, but that doesn’t mean anything, really. Whether or not they HAVE rights is not the question. Everyone has equal rights under international law. The real question is whether or not these rights are being upheld. And the reality is that Israel continues to abuse these rights. We can get technical if you want, but we’re talking about quite a few international laws and regulations that Israel has purposely been broken in the name of “retaliation.”

I can sum that entire debate in one question.
Would you rather be an arab living in Israel or be a jew living in Palestine?
Thank you.

How ya doing, buddy?

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I don’t think it’s ludicrous at all. Maybe they don’t bomb cafes or abduct other countries’ soldiers. But they do intentionally bomb civilian districts and abduct/kill innocent civilians instead. Which is worse?

I would say that targeting civilians as opposed to killing them due to circumstance would be the worse of the two. Or do you think that the rockets Hezbollah are firing have any kind of guidance system?

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Yes, but a “reactionary manner” isn’t invading a country, abusing human rights, and then attempting to occupy that country. It’s not like Israel is just sitting around baking cookies and doing good. It’s constantly stirring up shit with the Arab world and the Israeli government knows that the Arabs will attack them. They then use that as an excuse to “respond in a reactionary manner.” In this case, it’s the “removal of Hezbollah”, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Israel sticks around. Just by looking at Israel’s last two invasions of Lebanon, their intentions are clear.

Israel's defensive intentions have always been to provide a buffer against Arab aggression. Israel didn't even occupy the West Bank until 1967, and until then, Tel-Aviv was a stone's throw from a hostile border. Decades of aggression that ended when Israel got the bomb haven't exactly cooled passions in the Arab world. Or have you forgotten that Hamas and Hezbollah are Syrian and Iranian proxies?

Israel invaded Lebanon because the PLO was at the time launching attacks along its southern border, and they withdrew from Haifa to the security zone after the PLO withdrew its combatants from the region. Israel remained in the zone to keep the PLO from operating within Lebanon, and also keep the newly formed Hezbollah from attacking Israeli territory. Yet despite the purpose of Hezbollah, which was to end the Israeli occupation, they deployed themselves along the Blue Line after Israel's withdrawal in 2000. Why then would Hezbollah not dissolve itself when the threat from Israel had ended?

Hezbollah is now a Lebanese power, and their immediate aim is to gain political power in Lebanon. What better way to do that than to stir up the hornet's nest and create a need for their initial existence?

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No. Sure, Arabs and Jews have equal rights, but that doesn’t mean anything, really. Whether or not they HAVE rights is not the question. Everyone has equal rights under international law. The real question is whether or not these rights are being upheld. And the reality is that Israel continues to abuse these rights. We can get technical if you want, but we’re talking about quite a few international laws and regulations that Israel has purposely been broken in the name of “retaliation.”

Give me an example of Arab Israelis that have been denied their rights afforded to them by the Israeli constitution. International Laws have nothing to do with rights violations in an Apartheid-esque government, because Apartheid, in case you've forgotten, was a government which oppressed its own nationals.

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Think about what will happen to the American morale if we go to another war. We’re already stretched out pretty thin militarily.

Not in the Middle East. If Iran attempts to cut off the world's oil because of Israeli escalation, then the global community would be behind us in ending an Iranian blockade. People the world over would be clamoring for the resignation of President Ahmedinejad.

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Also, please name a big incident where the Israelis did not react with military might. I’m just curious.

Well, the recent hostage negotiations in which Israel exchanged 400 political prisoners for two of their soldiers and the remains of several others, for one. The one that was mentioned in this thread?

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Maybe, but it didn’t help that Israel was already holding hundreds of Lebanese prisoners. Hezbollah’s not entirely to blame for this conflict. After all, in Israel, hostage-taking is legal. Just remember that Israel has been in Lebanon long before Hezbollah. This isn't the first time this has happened.

Israel was in Lebanon starting in 1978, which is a 4 year difference between the Israeli presence and the founding of Hezbollah. Nevermind either, that when the Civil War ended, Israel released several of their detainees after militias dissolved themselves. The only Civil War militia that hasn't been disolved is the one belonging to Hezbollah, and the prisoners Israel continues to detain are members of that organization.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

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Way to kill eight Canadians, Israel.

Of course if we were America we would have nuked them for that. Sigh, can the world just step in already.

Are you joking? The US nuke Israel? And which "world" should step in? If you're talking about that corrupt peace of trash the UN, then it'll take them 2 years to decide there's even a problem. If not the UN, then you must be talking about the US, because no other nation (besides maybe Britian and Australia) would lend their military. I know you love to hate the US, but get your head out of your ass this time. Israel can more then take this type of opposition on its own.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Bradylama you show no backing data that prove your defence, your obvious ly blindly in defence of Israel.

To whomever:
I never said Israel is a terrorist state by the way, they just commit acts that can very well be defined as terrorism, again i speak of experience, what do you have to counter that?

I would only judge Styphon's words as logic in countering what i say, i still hate the bastard though, but he's right, your argument however, brady, is not logical in any way.
How can one give you an example of the everyday disregard of arab rights in israel, wether they are Palestinian or Israeli? It happens, take my word for it.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by CryHavoc

Bradylama you show no backing data that prove your defence, your obvious ly blindly in defence of Israel.

To whomever:
I never said Israel is a terrorist state by the way, they just commit acts that can very well be defined as terrorism, again i speak of experience, what do you have to counter that?

I would only judge Styphon's words as logic in countering what i say, i still hate the bastard though, but he's right, your argument however, brady, is not logical in any way.
How can one give you an example of the everyday disregard of arab rights in israel, wether they are Palestinian or Israeli? It happens, take my word for it.

Obviously you're implying that Israel is committing acts of terrorism. Fact is, they are a legitimate soverign government, and are only defending their interests. Collateral damage happens, and it's unfortunate, but your arbitrary definition of terrorism is definately implying something.

On the other hand, Israel is not deliberately targetting civilians with their attacks. They don't strap bombs to themselves and blow up buses and shopping malls. That is clear cut terrorism.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.