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So glad we defeated the Taliban!
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Gumby
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Old Mar 26, 2006, 10:35 PM Local time: Mar 27, 2006, 05:35 AM #26 of 85
Originally Posted by Pyrus421
Is it just me or does the guy in the picture look excited?
Well he is smiling when they plan on killing him soon...

Duo Maxwell: There comes a point when standing on hot coals for too long will only cause harm. He danced for 20+ (14?) years in a country that hates Christians and hates their own kind who convert even more. While it is sad that they plan on killing this man, he did choose to stay there knowing full well what would happen to him if he ever got caught.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

"In a somewhat related statement. Hugging fat people is soft and comfy. <3" - Jan
"Jesus, Gumby. You just...came up with that off the top of your head?" - Alice

Last edited by Gumby; Mar 27, 2006 at 02:13 AM.
Wesker
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Old Mar 26, 2006, 11:47 PM #27 of 85
Originally Posted by Adamgian
Besides, what kind of idiot decides to convert from Christianity to Islam in Afghanistan anyways. The guy should be smarter than that, period.
I'm guessing you meant what kind of guy converts TO Christianity in Afghanistan. A case could be made that a courageous man who stands on his convictions and has true faith in Jesus Christ would convert. He converted 14 years ago...during Taliban reign. Perhaps he flet that things would change with a new constitution and all. You can't call him stupid. You'd then have to call all of the apostes stupid, because they were killed, you'd have to call Mohammad stupid, because he faced violent opposition too. Martin Luther and the Pilgims were idiots too by your logic.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
Sarag
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Old Mar 27, 2006, 12:15 AM #28 of 85
What does the pilgrims have to do with a lone convert in bumfuck, Afghanistan? Funny hats?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?
Wesker
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Old Mar 27, 2006, 12:49 PM #29 of 85
Originally Posted by a lurker
What does the pilgrims have to do with a lone convert in bumfuck, Afghanistan? Funny hats?
The Pilgrims chose to oppose the church of England, they took a stand and took great risks for their religion

I was speaking idiomatically.
Adamgian
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Old Mar 27, 2006, 03:45 PM #30 of 85
Quote:
You'd then have to call all of the apostes stupid, because they were killed, you'd have to call Mohammad stupid, because he faced violent opposition too. Martin Luther and the Pilgims were idiots too by your logic.
No, I'd call him stupid because he is an apostate in a country that will not accept him, a country where a religious freedom movement has no need since it would not even come close to affecting less than half a percent of the population.

I'd call him stupid as well because hes attempting to drive a cause that is best not martyred for. The only way to achieve that kind of religious freedom in Afghanistan is to allow the society to open up to the world and acclimate itself to such ideas, simply dumping it on a society of that kind will just not work.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
Wesker
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 01:31 AM #31 of 85
His religion is a personal thing. He was turned in by Muslim family members. Jesus was apostate in Israel...Paul refused to bow down and call Ceasar god...and how do you know religious freedom would have no effect if it hasn't been tried. Maybe many Afghanis would think Christianity to be superior to Islam and convert..perhaps thats what the cleric are afraid of, perhaps thats why they so desperatly want to forbid any other religious thought, becuase in the light of free religious choice, Islam may lose its power and control over the people.

FELIPE NO
Adamgian
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 07:42 AM #32 of 85
Quote:
His religion is a personal thing. He was turned in by Muslim family members. Jesus was apostate in Israel...Paul refused to bow down and call Ceasar god...and how do you know religious freedom would have no effect if it hasn't been tried. Maybe many Afghanis would think Christianity to be superior to Islam and convert..perhaps thats what the cleric are afraid of, perhaps thats why they so desperatly want to forbid any other religious thought, becuase in the light of free religious choice, Islam may lose its power and control over the people.
And now one point rises above all. You just don't understand the Afghani people. It's by far the most conservative society in the world, deeply rooted in tribal ideas and Islam. There wouldn't be a mass conversion, it's not a society very open to change.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?
niki
Valar Dohaeris


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Old Mar 28, 2006, 08:24 AM Local time: Mar 28, 2006, 03:24 PM #33 of 85
Originally Posted by Adamgian
And now one point rises above all. You just don't understand the Afghani people. It's by far the most conservative society in the world, deeply rooted in tribal ideas and Islam. There wouldn't be a mass conversion, it's not a society very open to change.
And you don't seem to understand the concept of faith and religion either.

It's not like the guy openly displayed his religion in a defying way. His own family betrayed him.

Anyway, he's out now. Officially released for "mental" issues.

Jam it back in, in the dark.
Sexninja
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 08:40 AM Local time: Mar 28, 2006, 06:40 PM #34 of 85
Wesker made this topic just to bash Islam,he is just looking for chance to bash even more ,where as Adamgian is trying to defend needlessly.

The issue is trivial,who gives a DAMN fuck to a afghani.

And this issue has ended so i dont see any point of continuing this debate.

There's nowhere I can't reach.
Wesker
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 12:40 PM #35 of 85
Originally Posted by Sexninja
Wesker made this topic just to bash Islam,he is just looking for chance to bash even more ,where as Adamgian is trying to defend needlessly.

The issue is trivial,who gives a DAMN fuck to a afghani.

And this issue has ended so i dont see any point of continuing this debate.
How am I bashing? I even quoted Isalmic scripture to show that not all Muslims believe this way.

The issue is not trivial. If American lives are being sacrificed to bring "democracy" to these Muslim nations, I'd prefer to see them act in a more civilzied fashion. Since this isn't going to happen, my opinion now is the hell with them, we shouldn't waste another American life trying to mediate peace between these people since in the long run it won't matter anyway.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
Rock
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 12:46 PM Local time: Mar 28, 2006, 07:46 PM #36 of 85
Originally Posted by Wesker
If American lives are being sacrificed to bring "democracy" to these Muslim nations, I'd prefer to see them act in a more civilzied fashion. Since this isn't going to happen, my opinion now is the hell with them, we shouldn't waste another American life trying to mediate peace between these people since in the long run it won't matter anyway.
Still, it's not the fault of the people who have been living with this law for centuries, but of the people "bringing" democracy to them without actually enforcing their understanding of it.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?
Wesker
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 12:56 PM #37 of 85
Originally Posted by Rock
Still, it's not the fault of the people who have been living with this law for centuries, but of the people "bringing" democracy to them without actually enforcing their understanding of it.
Agreed...it seems the American people were sold a false premise in in that the defeat of the taliban would bring a new openeness to the region. This obviously didn't happen. Most Americans would not have wanted our troops to die establishing a new government that executes people for their religious beliefs. Bomb the taliban, take out the military capabilities and terrorist capabilities of threatening nations, but don't commit American lives to a clearly failed westernization program.

I was speaking idiomatically.
Rock
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 01:00 PM Local time: Mar 28, 2006, 08:00 PM #38 of 85
To be honest, it's not a secret that the recent nation building sponsored by the US and their allies is failing left and right. I wonder what went wrong after WWII.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
Wesker
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 02:40 PM #39 of 85
After WWII we were, in Europe, building nations that already had a Judeo/Christian ethic and had, in the past, experienced western style freedoms. In Japan, MacArthur governed, almost as a dictator, and the Japanese, having been so soundly defeated, were eager at a chance at a better life. While not having a Judeo?Chritian background, they at least weren't burdened by an overly strict theocratic law, and were thus better able to adapt to a free market, libertarian type of society. Allowing the Emperor to remain as a figure head leader helped also, by allowing them a tie with their past and their religion.

How ya doing, buddy?
Gordon_Freeman
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 03:31 PM #40 of 85
Quote:
Bomb the taliban, take out the military capabilities and terrorist capabilities of threatening nations, but don't commit American lives to a clearly failed westernization program.
That is what got us into this mess in the first place. THe CIA funnelled a ton of money, arms, and support to the Mujuhadden when they were fighting the Soviets, and once they won, the Americans packed up went home. The Soviets devastated the populaiton - I can longer remember the precise firgure - but the percentage of the Afghan population killed in the war is shocking. Into the resulting power vacuum came the Taliban, who ideological roots and black turbans can be traced to a precise Pakistani madreseh on the road between Peshawar and Islamabad. Even today, it is hard to find anyone in Pakistan or Afghanistan who holds a grudge against Russia - they still feel that the real betrayal was by the Americans abandoning them at the end of the Soviet occupation. So you can bomb the Taliban out of existence in Afghanistan, but it is alive in well in NWFP, Baluchistan, the tribal agancies and many remote valleys in the Northern Areas, and it will be back. Taliban philosophy can only gain creedence in areas of low education, poor security, even poorer economic prospects. Virulent anti-Americanism in Pakistan, the assassination of General Massoud, and the presence Osama Bin Laden are inextricably linked and point to something bigger and more troubling. THe only way to fix that region is to help them rebuild their civilization. I can't help but feel had we done that in the 80s, we would have saved ourselves a lot of heartache in the 00s.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Last edited by Gordon_Freeman; Mar 28, 2006 at 03:36 PM. Reason: clarification
Sexninja
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Old Mar 29, 2006, 04:23 AM Local time: Mar 29, 2006, 02:23 PM #41 of 85
Originally Posted by Wesker
If American lives are being sacrificed to bring "democracy" to these Muslim nations, I'd prefer to see them act in a more civilzied fashion.
If Americans are going to stick their noses into someone else's mattersand issues etc,the people will get agrravated instead of being civilised specially the way US adopts that is, killing and destorying nation in the shroud of DEMOCRACY REVIVAL.

I ask you,if your father and mother would prefer solving problems of their "family" by themslef or they would rather suggest some stranger to come to your house and intervene in your matters(beating you if necessary).
How will you react?

Afghanistan is Fucked since long ,a guliible nation,with fucked up citizens and US is responsible for that.
Now don't even expect them to act in civilised way.

Jam it back in, in the dark.
Cal
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Old Mar 29, 2006, 04:33 AM Local time: Mar 29, 2006, 07:33 PM #42 of 85
Originally Posted by Wesker
If American lives are being sacrificed to bring "democracy" to these Muslim nations, I'd prefer to see them act in a more civilzied fashion.
Who said civility was even a requirement for democratic government?

The Iraqi shopowners aren't emptying magazines out of seventh-century social sets but political expressions of the desire for national autonomy.

I'm not sure you're aware of this, Wesker, but people who don't live on your continent generally severely disagree with Full Spectrum Dominance.

How ya doing, buddy?
LlooooydGEEEOOORGE

Last edited by Cal; Mar 29, 2006 at 10:10 AM.
Sexninja
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Old Mar 29, 2006, 09:33 AM Local time: Mar 29, 2006, 07:33 PM #43 of 85
Originally Posted by Cal
I'm not sure you're aware of this, Wesker, but people who don't live on your contiment generally severely disagree with Full Spectrum Dominance.
My take is that people like wesker are not in any mood of accepting this even if they are AWARE.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
Wesker
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Old Mar 29, 2006, 12:03 PM #44 of 85
Originally Posted by Sexninja
My take is that people like wesker are not in any mood of accepting this even if they are AWARE.
My poiny is that I think it is a mistake to try and bring democracy and western ideas to apeople who, by the nature of their religious beliefs, are not willing to accept them. I say that the threats should be removed, but the efforts at nation building should not be taken. Isalmist governments will always be at odds with western governments, this conflict is at the heart of the beliefs of the Islamist Jihadists. Bush thought "If these people just get a taste of good old American style freedom, than they'll just run to it and adopt it"..he was dead wrong.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?
Gordon_Freeman
Larry Oji, Super Moderator, Judge, "Dirge for the Follin" Project Director, VG Frequency Creator


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Old Mar 29, 2006, 01:16 PM #45 of 85
Originally Posted by Wesker
My poiny is that I think it is a mistake to try and bring democracy and western ideas to apeople who, by the nature of their religious beliefs, are not willing to accept them. I say that the threats should be removed, but the efforts at nation building should not be taken. Isalmist governments will always be at odds with western governments, this conflict is at the heart of the beliefs of the Islamist Jihadists. Bush thought "If these people just get a taste of good old American style freedom, than they'll just run to it and adopt it"..he was dead wrong.
This strategy is just asking for trouble down the road. Perceptions of unfairness and hypocrisy is what mainstreamed radical Islam. Acting like a bully just makes it harder for moderates in friendly countries like Egypt and Jordon. Pressing for reforms in our oppressive allies like Saudi Arabia would go much further in making us safe than bombing uranium enrichment plants in Iran.

I was speaking idiomatically.
Rock
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Old Mar 29, 2006, 01:23 PM Local time: Mar 29, 2006, 08:23 PM #46 of 85
This is a complicated issue because on the one hand, even an occupying force needs to respect foreign cultures, law and lifestyle. On the other hand, if you're going into a country with military force planning to establish a western style democracy, you better do it right and not be half-assed about it.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
Wesker
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Old Mar 29, 2006, 01:32 PM #47 of 85
Islam presents a problem when it comes to respecting other cultures. Islam seems to have a victim complex. Muslims can inflict all kinds of horrible violence upon each other and theres nary a peep of protest. Release a rumor of Koran abuse or draw a cartoon of Mohammad and theres hell to pay. It seesm that only the "infidel" can be guilty of offenses against Muslims. This presents the occupying forces with the dilemma of trying to protect a people from themselves. Any actions taken against the offending party, if the offending party is Muslim, and the occupying force is the guilty one. It's a no win situation.Knowing this, "insurgents" and terrorists often hole up in mosques, knowing that for the infidel Americans to go after them would be some sort of horrific offense against islam and cause a public outcry.

FELIPE NO
knkwzrd
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Old Mar 29, 2006, 01:40 PM Local time: Mar 29, 2006, 12:40 PM #48 of 85
Originally Posted by Wesker
Islam presents a problem when it comes to respecting other cultures. Islam seems to have a victim complex.
It could just as easily be said, excuse the pun, that Christians have a God complex. The only reason Islam seems to have a "victim complex" is that western media only reports on a small minority of Muslim extremists. Yes, they're at the forefront, but that doesn't mean they're the majority.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?
Rock
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Old Mar 29, 2006, 01:55 PM Local time: Mar 29, 2006, 08:55 PM #49 of 85
Originally Posted by Wesker
Islam presents a problem when it comes to respecting other cultures. Islam seems to have a victim complex. Muslims can inflict all kinds of horrible violence upon each other and theres nary a peep of protest. Release a rumor of Koran abuse or draw a cartoon of Mohammad and theres hell to pay. It seesm that only the "infidel" can be guilty of offenses against Muslims. This presents the occupying forces with the dilemma of trying to protect a people from themselves. Any actions taken against the offending party, if the offending party is Muslim, and the occupying force is the guilty one. It's a no win situation.Knowing this, "insurgents" and terrorists often hole up in mosques, knowing that for the infidel Americans to go after them would be some sort of horrific offense against islam and cause a public outcry.
This is exactly the type of attitude that makes your policy fail in Muslim countries. If you don't like Islam, you better stay the fuck out of the Middle East.

Jam it back in, in the dark.
Adamgian
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Old Mar 29, 2006, 02:48 PM #50 of 85
The fact of the matter though is, Middle Eastern countries don't want to be "Westernized." Hell, just read some of the Saudi press, and it'll openly say - Modernize, yes, Westernize, never.

Democracy and a rule of law open to the public is not something that is given, its something the people of the country who want it must earn. It takes strong institutions and a people willing to work themselves to get their right to vote and determine their own laws. Democracy will never work as an imposed idea, and its very sad that the US and its people of all nations, can't seem to realize that.

Islam is compatible with Democracy so long as you realize the type of Democracy it calls for. In particular, what do you consider as central tenents of a free society? Freedom of religion, freedom of speech, what? European countries don't grant full freedom of speech, and some have state religions, yet we consider them democracies. Adapting this to a conservative Islamic society is the way to bring about an open rule of law.

I bring this up for a few reasons. First off, blasphemy will never be tolerated in an Islamic society. You cannot expect even a democratic muslim country to permit people to openly caricature Muhammed, as with the Danish cartoons. As well, apostacy will be a touchy and difficult issue to address, and likely will be illegal as well. However, does banning those two practices inherently mean that a state cannot be a democracy?

Wesker, most of this is directed at you, although it applies to anyone else who wants to address it. I've been looking at the issue, its a very, very complicated one to address, and thats the main reason I strongly oppose any intervention to prop up "Democractic governments." It's just too difficult for a foreign power to juggle and understand the complexities of the situation on the ground.

There's nowhere I can't reach.
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