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Parental rights denied by 9th Circuit Court
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Wesker
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Old Mar 22, 2006, 08:05 PM #1 of 107
Parental rights denied by 9th Circuit Court

Although this decision was made in 11/05, I think it merits discussion. The 9the Circuit Court determined that parents have to exclusive constitutional right to determine what their children are taught regarding sexual matters. The court ruled that the parents rights end at the school door. The case revolves around a sex survey given to elementary school kids asking questions of a deeply personal and sexual manner. (How often do you touch yorself, etc.). The parents objected, saying they should determine what their kids are exposed to regarding sexuality.

Sound to me like an open door for any pro gay, pro abortion, etc. agenda that the schools feel are proper and politocally correct. It would seem to me like a violation of the parents first amendment right to practice the religion of their choice. The court held that parents still have to choice as to where to send their kids to school, but with the liberal fight against vouchers, how many parents really have this choice?

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:...s&ct=clnk&cd=7

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Interrobang
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Old Mar 22, 2006, 08:38 PM Local time: Mar 22, 2006, 07:38 PM #2 of 107
Quote:
pro gay, pro abortion, etc. agenda
Can we please ban the word, agenda, from Political Palace? Forever, ever, and ever?

Or a quota system unusable by Wesker.

Quote:
It would seem to me like a violation of the parents first amendment right to practice the religion of their choice.
What does the parents' religion have to do with a sexually aware survey?

There's nowhere I can't reach.
Taterdemalion
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Old Mar 22, 2006, 09:30 PM #3 of 107
Originally Posted by Wesker
Sound to me like an open door for any pro gay, pro abortion, etc. agenda that the schools feel are proper and politocally correct. It would seem to me like a violation of the parents first amendment right to practice the religion of their choice. The court held that parents still have to choice as to where to send their kids to school, but with the liberal fight against vouchers, how many parents really have this choice?
Who's to say the parents know best? If parents wish to affect the education of their own child in public school, they are also affecting the education of all kids in that school. If parents want their kids to learn about something in a manner they deem apporpriate, they should teach it to their children themselves. And that, of course, is allowed. What is not allowed (and upheld by this court) is parents spreading their own agenda over all kids instead of just their own.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
Alice
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Old Mar 22, 2006, 09:53 PM #4 of 107
If this is the case I'm thinking of, these were SECOND GRADERS, people - not high schoolers. The parents absolutely should have a say over *if* (I was going to say "what", but that is totally out of the realm of rational thinking) their seven-year-olds are exposed to with regard to sex, religion, peanut butter vs. peanut butter & jelly, whether or not the sky is blue, or any other subject imaginable.

Are you people crazy?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?
Alice
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Old Mar 22, 2006, 10:03 PM #5 of 107
Like I said, I thought this was referring to the case (in New Hampshire or Connecticut or one of those states) where second-graders were given a questionnaire regarding masturbation, homosexuality, etc. without parental consent.

I was speaking idiomatically.
I poked it and it made a sad sound
Struttin'


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Old Mar 22, 2006, 10:10 PM #6 of 107
Originally Posted by Devo
Yup and last time I was in school they literally give all kids a slip that basically says, "We're having sexual education on ____ date at ____ time if you do or don't want your child to attend check the appropriate box and sign."
Actually, when I was in fifth grade, they DID do that. >_>

We literally had to get a permission slip signed to take a sex ed/health class. It was taught by the lesbian gym teacher. No joke.

And I don't have a problem with this letter (in the article...thing)
Quote:
The Palmdale School District is asking your support in participating in
a district-wide study of our first, third and fifth grade children. The study will be a part of a collaborative effort with The California School of Pro-
fessional Psychology — CSPP/ Alliant International University, Chil-
dren’s Bureau of Southern California and the Palmdale School District.

The goal of this assessment is to establish a community baseline mea-
sure of children’s exposure to early trauma (for example, violence). We
will identify internal behaviors such as anxiety and depression and exter-
nal behaviors such as aggression and verbal abuse.
As a result, we will be
designing a district wide intervention program to help children reduce
these barriers to learning, which students can participate in. Please read
this consent letter and if you agree, please sign and send it back to your
school’s principal no later than December 20, 2001.
Personally, I would do the homework on the CSPP and be sure they're legit. (which I am sure they are.)

I would sign that. I imagine they're not idiotic and they'll hold themselves in good taste with administering an evaluation. This is coming from a person who doesn't trust doctors.

I am sure they're not going to ask first graders anything terribly graphic - its more than likely geared towards a first grader's mind. These are psychologists. Not pedophiles. They're doing your community a service.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
Luckee Cookie
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Old Mar 22, 2006, 10:17 PM #7 of 107
Originally Posted by Devo
It seems so but I don't believe a survey would hurt them. If they don't know certain terms, they probably shouldn't be informed yet.
maybe it's just me but it seems kids of younger and younger age learn of these things and swearing and such.

I don't really get the POINT of the survey to start with - what was it's purpose being there in the first place? Or someone along the school board just curious what those little children do these days during their boutifull 'free times'? If they're going to teach sexuality just teach it for goodness sake, the kids are there to learn and not to conclude a survey on how often they touch themselves.

EDIT: OK. But still, throwing a survey like this at them is just strange to begin with. If they think they need to get covered over this sexuality thing a bit earlier or more in detail or on other topics as well, I think the media reveals this very well on violent acts on younger youth as well as all that's up on the news: couldn't they get the concenus off of that or they need some hard proof that they need to change the course or something?

How ya doing, buddy?

Last edited by Luckee Cookie; Mar 22, 2006 at 10:20 PM.
I poked it and it made a sad sound
Struttin'


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Old Mar 22, 2006, 10:24 PM #8 of 107
After carefully reading all of this document, theres really absolutely NOTHING these parents could get upset about.

Quote:
The children were asked to rate the following activities, among others, on a scale from “never” to “almost all the time”: “Bad dreams or night-
mares,” “Feeling dizzy,” “Wanting to yell at people,” “Wanting to hurt other people,” “Trying not to have feelings,” “Can’t stop thinking about something bad that happened to me,” and “Wanting to kill myself.” Ten of those questions were about sexual subjects.

The second part of the survey is
labeled “Bialer-Cromwell LC Scale (Modified).”

These questions concentrate on the child subject’s perception of other
people and the external world. The third part follows the same
format as Bialer-Cromwell, but the questions focus upon:

8. Touching my private parts too much
17. Thinking about having sex
22. Thinking about touching other people’s private parts
23. Thinking about sex when I don’t want to
26. Washing myself because I feel dirty on the inside
34. Not trusting people because they might want sex
40. Getting scared or upset when I think about sex
44. Having sex feelings in my body
47. Can’t stop thinking about sex
54. Getting upset when people talk about sex
These seem like valid questions to me. I don't know.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?
Outlaw
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Old Mar 22, 2006, 11:09 PM Local time: Mar 22, 2006, 09:09 PM #9 of 107
These are still 1st-5th grade kids we're talking about....I mean I can see maybe starting the questionare (with the sex-related questions) maybe 5th and up....but not 1st-4th graders. I mean I have nothing against sex-ed or anything....it's just that most 1st and 2nd (and maybe 3rd graders) don't know where babies come from let alone what 'sex' or 'masterbation/"touching myself"' mean. At least that's the way it was when I was in school (I became home schooled after 4th grade). But then again....kids are maturing sooner and sooner now adays....so who knows....the kids in those grades probaly DO know where babies come from and the meaning of 'sex' :/ .....

Jam it back in, in the dark.
Bradylama
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Old Mar 22, 2006, 11:24 PM Local time: Mar 22, 2006, 11:24 PM #10 of 107
I'm not sure what the survey intends to accomplish when the subjects don't even have a base understanding of sex. I mean, when you get into 4th and 5th Grade you're gonna have some kids "in the know" who get boners looking at swimsuit calendars, but 1st Graders?

In either case, if parents don't like it, they can send their kids to private school. It's a free country.

There's nowhere I can't reach.
Interrobang
What I learned in Boating Class is


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Old Mar 22, 2006, 11:32 PM Local time: Mar 22, 2006, 10:32 PM #11 of 107
Originally Posted by Bradylama
I'm not sure what the survey intends to accomplish when the subjects don't even have a base understanding of sex. I mean, when you get into 4th and 5th Grade you're gonna have some kids "in the know" who get boners looking at swimsuit calendars, but 1st Graders?
I considered that, but wrote it off as just a necessity to get scientifically acceptable statistics. Gonna need those for graphs.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
Bradylama
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Old Mar 22, 2006, 11:56 PM Local time: Mar 22, 2006, 11:56 PM #12 of 107
"What Is Sex' has garnered seventy percent of the results, professor."

"GOOD! GOOD! Feed it to the machine!"

All I know is that I certainly wouldn't want my 7 year old asking me what sex was all of a sudden. Aren't I supposed to have time to prepare for these things?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?
Sarag
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Old Mar 22, 2006, 11:57 PM #13 of 107
Originally Posted by Outlaw
it's just that most 1st and 2nd (and maybe 3rd graders) don't know where babies come from let alone what 'sex' or 'masterbation/"touching myself"' mean.
Most first and second graders do know roughly where babies come from. Well, pretty roughly. The way my folks explained it, I thought parents made soup from which the baby emerged.

After reading the questions, I don't object. It's like how the doctor tells you that you shouldn't let anyone touch you in your bathing suit area.

I was speaking idiomatically.
Sarag
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Old Mar 22, 2006, 11:59 PM #14 of 107
When the hell did you guys first find out about babies and sex? Christ, did I drop into Lives-Under-A-Rock-land?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
Bradylama
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Old Mar 22, 2006, 11:59 PM Local time: Mar 22, 2006, 11:59 PM #15 of 107
No, I don't believe I'll ever feel like doing a laid son, thank you very much madam.

Also, how far along is the pregnancy?

Double Post:
Quote:
When the hell did you guys first find out about babies and sex? Christ, did I drop into Lives-Under-A-Rock-land?
My mom claims that she gave me "The Talk" after the neighbor's kid knocked up his girlfriend and I saw her walking on the sidewalk all pregnant. Of course, I have absolutely no recollection of this, so she could just be feeding me lies.

I remember finding said kid's stash of girly mags, and that would be the first exposure to sexuality that spiralled me into an awkward perversion of pre-adolescent thought.

Isn't childhood wonderful?

How ya doing, buddy?

Last edited by Bradylama; Mar 23, 2006 at 12:02 AM. Reason: Automerged double post.
Watts
"Thieves, Robbers, Politicians!"


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Old Mar 23, 2006, 01:14 AM Local time: Mar 22, 2006, 11:14 PM #16 of 107
Originally Posted by Wesker
Although this decision was made in 11/05, I think it merits discussion. The 9the Circuit Court determined that parents have to exclusive constitutional right to determine what their children are taught regarding sexual matters. The court ruled that the parents rights end at the school door.
That's not surprising. Parents are required to surrender their children to the state for their... education. Under threat of imprisonment. The state has and always will decide what needs to be taught.

Originally Posted by Wesker
It would seem to me like a violation of the parents first amendment right to practice the religion of their choice.
School is a religion. Where you're taught to obey authority without question. It does wonders preparing children to be complacent members of a modern capitalist society. Smart people are dangerous after all.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?
Wesker
Darn you to heck!


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Old Mar 23, 2006, 04:05 PM #17 of 107
The problem here, as I see it rests with the subject matter. Science, math, English, etc are valid subjects, usually without a moral bearing one way or the other. Inquiring as to a childs sexual thoughts, teaching certain sexual matters as normal when they perhaps are not for many people, well, this crosses the line.

I find it interesting the idea put forth by the court that parents have no "exclusive Constitutional right" to the education of their kids. Taken to its logical conclusion that though would end homeschooliong and private schools and mandate government approved brainwashing..i mean "education".

And what sick pervert is studying how many times a frist grader considers matrubation...thats just sick.

How ya doing, buddy?
I poked it and it made a sad sound
Struttin'


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Old Mar 23, 2006, 04:31 PM #18 of 107
Originally Posted by Wesker
The problem here, as I see it rests with the subject matter. Science, math, English, etc are valid subjects, usually without a moral bearing one way or the other. Inquiring as to a childs sexual thoughts, teaching certain sexual matters as normal when they perhaps are not for many people, well, this crosses the line.
Did you even read the article.

Sex was actually not even a big issue on the survey. It was sparsed in with questions about violence, interactions with others, and feelings that would raise an alarm in ANY parent's head.

Quote:
I find it interesting the idea put forth by the court that parents have no "exclusive Constitutional right" to the education of their kids. Taken to its logical conclusion that though would end homeschooliong and private schools and mandate government approved brainwashing..i mean "education".
Its not like a bunch of amateurs performed these surveys. It was COMPLETELY anonymous, it didn't ask anything terribly inappropriate or graphic, and it was done by tasteful professionals from what I read.

If you can't accept that an institution is surveying your kids and the subject of your kid's peepee is going to come up, send them to a private religious school. I don't see why the state schol cater to pansy-ass parents who can't talk assess their own child's feelings or feel "uncomfortable" that their kid is going to be asked about psychological evaulation questions which MAY JUST INVOLVE their body.

Quote:
And what sick pervert is studying how many times a frist grader considers matrubation...thats just sick.
A first grader doesn't even know what "masturbation" is.

These are not pedophiles. They are PSYCHOLOGISTS. Wow.

There's nowhere I can't reach.
Minion
Retainer


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Old Mar 23, 2006, 04:32 PM #19 of 107
Now Devo, a lot of fucked up things were done in the name of Psychology. Like electroshock therapy and Lobotomies.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
RacinReaver
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Old Mar 23, 2006, 05:22 PM Local time: Mar 23, 2006, 03:22 PM #20 of 107
I've heard electroshock was making a bit of a comeback now that people have gotten past Kesey's reactionary response to it.

I also feel sorry for the first grade teacher that has to answer the question, "What's masturbation?" (Also insert necessary child mispronunciation of the word.)

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?
Minion
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Old Mar 23, 2006, 06:46 PM #21 of 107
I'm just sayin'. The suggestion that Psychologists know what they're doing is a little sketchy. They haven't established themselves very well just yet.

How ya doing, buddy?
Radez
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Old Mar 23, 2006, 07:06 PM #22 of 107
Nobody seems to have brought it up, but what I gathered from the statement was that the questionnaire was designed to bring to light any trauma (violent or sexual) which might be inhibiting a child's learning.

It's also been my impression that touching oneself as such a young age is indicative of sexual trauma. I think asking whether a kid touches himself out of a neurotic response to rape is more valid than wondering whether 6 year olds get horny.

If you look at the wording of that letter, the parents have a point that it wasn't explicitly stated that there would be questions with sexual content. That may have been an ingenuous ommission by the district, but I can easily imagine a meeting where someone said "Oh don't say that; then they'll never go for it!"

Oh, and lurker, by the third grade I had a rough understanding of procreation. eg. Babies came out between girls' legs, and boys peed up there to make it happen.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
Watts
"Thieves, Robbers, Politicians!"


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Old Mar 23, 2006, 07:11 PM Local time: Mar 23, 2006, 05:11 PM #23 of 107
Originally Posted by Wesker
The problem here, as I see it rests with the subject matter. Science, math, English, etc are valid subjects,
Hello? This is America we're talking about here. You can be a scientist... just don't talk about evolution. You can be a climatologist... just don't talk about global warming. You following?

And people wonder why Americans are behind other industrialized nations in the sciences.

Originally Posted by Wesker
I find it interesting the idea put forth by the court that parents have no "exclusive Constitutional right" to the education of their kids. Taken to its logical conclusion that though would end homeschooliong and private schools and mandate government approved brainwashing..i mean "education".
"Brainwashing" is such a harsh word. It's more like socialization. Or if you really have to be negative about it "conditioning". Society needs to be maintained, and public/private education is maintenance required to maintain the existing order of things.

Furthermore, home schooling materials still have to be mandated by the State. Private/public school teachers are typically certified by the State. So home schooling really won't be illegal.

Originally Posted by Wesker
And what sick pervert is studying how many times a frist grader considers matrubation...thats just sick.
That really wasn't what the article was about, but considering the quality of my "sex education" when I was in public school... well calling it a "education" is a insult to my senses.

Originally Posted by Avalokiteshvara
Nobody seems to have brought it up, but what I gathered from the statement was that the questionnaire was designed to bring to light any trauma (violent or sexual) which might be inhibiting a child's learning.

It's also been my impression that touching oneself as such a young age is indicative of sexual trauma. I think asking whether a kid touches himself out of a neurotic response to rape is more valid than wondering whether 6 year olds get horny.
That was probably the real reason. I don't see much point to a questionnaire though, since the signs would be physically manifested at that point.

FELIPE NO

Last edited by Watts; Mar 23, 2006 at 07:18 PM.
Radez
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Old Mar 23, 2006, 07:30 PM #24 of 107
You have a point Watts. The questionnaires would be useful if they indicated specific children who had been traumatized, allowing those children to be helped, or to find relations between specific learning problems and specific traumas, allowing the former to be solved by treating the latter.

However, if anonymity is guaranteed, then the only thing you get is a statistic analysis of children who have been traumatized. A comparison with one regarding children with learning problems might indicate a relation. However, I thought we already knew that there was a link between the two.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?
Watts
"Thieves, Robbers, Politicians!"


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Old Mar 23, 2006, 07:38 PM Local time: Mar 23, 2006, 05:38 PM #25 of 107
Originally Posted by Avalokiteshvara
You have a point Watts. The questionnaires would be useful if they indicated specific children who had been traumatized, allowing those children to be helped, or to find relations between specific learning problems and specific traumas, allowing the former to be solved by treating the latter.
True, but how effective could a comparison be? All too often sexual abuse is only the first worm in a very large can of worms.

Originally Posted by Avalokiteshvara
However, if anonymity is guaranteed, then the only thing you get is a statistic analysis of children who have been traumatized. A comparison with one regarding children with learning problems might indicate a relation. However, I thought we already knew that there was a link between the two.
Right, which is not in the interests of protecting the children. They're being used as lab rats at that point. I can't say I'd be for that.

Jam it back in, in the dark.
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