Does responsibility curve outwardly in favor of the less fortunate?

Id make a poll on this, but I dont see an option. Anyway, the options would be

-Its okay to have a child at any moment in life becuase of human rights, despite poverty and bad economic conditions

-Its not okay to have a child at any moment in life because you must first be financially and securely able to do so

btw, this thread isnt a continuation, but rather, it was only inspired from the particular topic. below in the spoilers are some responses to some people, and none of you dont need to look at them.

Also, I apologize to anyone who took it upon themselves to feel offended, maybe we can talk it over tea and be friends? You never know =)

Spoiler:

I am quite surprised that my few comments have done, seeing as I rarely post here, also, I feel I should prolly address some people who have asked me questions and responded to my comments, despite myself being removed from that particular thread.

Originally Posted by a lurker

Actually, I don't see what the problem is. The man can support his family/ies, he was on his way to doing just that. he even saved a life in the process; that's what I call a productive day. I mean I don't know what you object to Darsh, since apparently his ability to feed his family is not in question.

Is this the pain of an unplanned pregnancy-cum-teenager? Is this what it's like to be an unwanted child?

I'm glad it wasn't christian guilt that compelled my parents to keep me. I feel for you, I really do.

Ive already given the guy kudos for saving a child, but now you are giving him credit for something he has not even done yet, and conversely, I am criticizing him for something he has done not once but 4 times already. What I object to is having children when you are not financially able, I find it irresponsible when people do this because it harms the child, and what Im referring to is that the man had 4 children, though he couldnt afford one. I never said anything about child termination, but the safer alternative; use protection or dont have sex at all. Despite the many comments toward me, its actually not that sinister to suggest such responsibility!

Also, I never uttered my religious stance, nor a racist remark (except in reference), or profanity , yet you imply that I follow a christian doctrine when you mention guilt, Ive been called a cracker despite being part hisapanic and given a few occasional "fuck yous" from people grasping at straws to and not posting on topic. I hardly come to these forums, and even more I rarely post, but if most feel compelled to see me as evil because of a mere remark about responsibilty, by all means, just officailly say that this forum is only for liberal ideas and left wing comments! As an admin, Im sure you would take my comments into consideration, thank you for reading and let us rejoice.

Helleluyah

Quote:

Waitwaitwait
So...if I have 2 kids unplanned and after a while my wife or girlfriend or shmoo gives a fuck is no longer in the picture for whatever reason and I am left taking care of them....and then later - I get hooked up with this girl who already has 3 kids of her own and I do something out of my way to make sure ALL kids and parties in quetion are well fed and thoroughly taken care of...
...then that makes me a lazy irresponsible fuckwit because A) I had kids in the first place without "making proper planning and B) I took on the responsibility of kids who didn't have a proper father figure in their life to begin with?
WHA-HUH?? Did I read that right? Is that what you are saying or do I need better clarification because...wow. Please make sure this is not what you are saying because if it is heaven help your seed if you ever try to have a random fuck and the condom breaks.

-he had 4 kids
-the mother took care of the 4 kids, not the father
-if he cant take care of his kids first, why add additional children to his burden?
-yes, I find it irresponsible to have that many kids if you cant afford them in the first place, please tell me why that is wrong.
-if the condom breaks, then theres the morning after pill, and worse case scenario; abortion, but Im sure the condom broke on him 4 times, right?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

What one person/couple does is their business. You can not control how a person reproduces, as it's none of your goddamn business. Whether they're poor or rich, intelligent or stupid - whatever - it's none of your business.

Personally, I chose to wait until I am mentally able to cope with a child. I don't think ANYONE is ever "ready" to have a kid, either financially or mentally. I've thought long and hard about it.

Finance should take a role in having a kid, but it shouldn't be the main indicator of when you're ready to pop one out. How much money is ever "enough" for your child?

How ya doing, buddy?

I agree with Sass that it's nobody's business, but at the same time, people shouldn't be popping out kids if they can't afford them. It's not a matter of "how much is enough," it's a matter of "can i handle feeding and clothing another mouth on top of all these other bills and not have to rely on the taxpayers to bail my lazy ass out."

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

What one person/couple does is their business. You can not control how a person reproduces, as it's none of your goddamn business. Whether they're poor or rich, intelligent or stupid - whatever - it's none of your business.

Would you apply that to incestous couples too?

Anyway, I think there has to be some responsibility when it comes to having a child. I think as far as financially being able to raise a kid, they need the basics, a roof over their head, warm clothes, nutritious food, and as far as the other things they need, an important one would be nurturing parents to guide them through life, well, until they turn 18 that is, and then it's anybody's game. If you can't pay, don't play!

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

It is never, ever okay to mandate morality. It's fucking stupid, and insulting, and treads all over the rights of the individual.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Maybe Japan could start importing kids. There's lots of orphans or kids out there up for adoption.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Maico

Would you apply that to incestous couples too?

Who the hell am I to say that incestuous couples can't have kids? I don't think it's right, but as Deni graciously put it, what I think is right isn't always right for others. (That's not to say I condone incest.)

Personal decisions.

What I find interesting is that a LOT of poor folks who haven't been able to survive can make ends meet for their kids.

Who the hell is to say that poor folks can't have kids? That's ridiculously wrong. Some of the poor kids in history have grown up to be incredible people - there are a lot of things to be learned through poverty. Sure, many of them get the shit end of the stick - but the same happens with affluent people, too. Ain't no denyin'.

Not everyone is born rich or have privileges.

Which leads me to another thought, which has always torn me: should people who don't use birth control and can't care for their kids be allowed to reproduce over and over again?

(I mention this because one of my best friends ended up adopting her sister's son because the sister kept popping out kids and was abusing them. The state of Maryland had the sister's tubes tied - is this right or is this wrong)

FELIPE NO

But by making ends meet, they still met the financial and other obligations that the kids needed, yea? Anyway, about your story, I think the state was right to tie up that uncaring horn dog. If she doesn't want to pay, then she shouldn't play! Kids aren't like...candy? (Mmm, candy). I don't know a good blip to put in there, but you don't just make kids like a Ford rolling off the factory line...or something. If someone has a better analogy, feel free to trump that lame ass one I just tried to do. Yea...

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Maico

I think the state was right to tie up that uncaring horn dog. If she doesn't want to pay, then she shouldn't play! Kids aren't like...candy? (Mmm, candy). I don't know a good blip to put in there, but you don't just make kids like a Ford rolling off the factory line...or something. If someone has a better analogy, feel free to trump that lame ass one I just tried to do. Yea...

I agree that the woman is lacking in her capacity to determine when a good time is to STOP FUCKING.

But at the same time, there must be another way to resolve the problem then sewing her fallopian tubes shut. (Or whatever the fuck they do. I guess whatever procedure is cheapest to the state har har)

I mean, I am a little alarmed that this is permitted. No authority should have the right to physically fuck with someone's body.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Maybe they could've thrown her in a jail/prison instead for child abuse and neglect?

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Maico

Maybe they could've thrown her in a jail/prison instead for child abuse and neglect?

The state still ends up with kids in the foster care system and the woman can still pop more out in the end, though. (Just playing Devil's Advocate. I'm really torn on the issue)

This is a case of "mentally incapable" of caring for kids, though.

There should be no "financially capable," since thats insanely difficult to gauge. (Unless of course there's some abuse going on due to lack of funds... which is still arguable)

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Like Deni said, no one can [should] prevent anyone from their... life-given right to reproduce.

Having kids though is a different story. I then think about myself. I don't mean having kids but I was that kid myself. My mother nearly made the decision to have an abortion for various of reasons. I thought about why did she have me in the end anyway despite of her... being financially poor situation. She did have an abortion 5 years earlier then. So... I really like to believe that anyone should have a right to have kids just for the sake of yourself. I don't mean in comparison, but everyone and their kid has some kind of contribution to make. Even if its AIDS ridden country like Africa, but how do we know how they lived? Maybe they were fine til some country like ours decided we should do something about it. Same should be said for any other family...

We should really stay out of anyone's business, because I believe that things just work out like it should in the long run.

For example, Italy is one of few countries that has this phenomena where its people are recognizing the value/importance of each individual and yet they respected the amount of space they had in their beautiful cities and keep it that way.

It won't be long that other cities can follow suit.

Edit: Just remember... there's all kinds of forms of poverty. And sometimes having kids during poverty is a sign of wealth. How else? That kid helping out with the weeding or harvesting will bring in money for the family. More the merrier. And the plus side is, those who are that dirt poor would rarely know life on the other side and would care to. Gah... I have a freakin' headache... pardon me if this didn't make sense.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Generally, I do feel it is important to be finicially, emotionally, mentally, and even physically (the work you will have to do to properly take care of the child) before you have a child. However, upmost you must be mature enough to have a child.

I suppose that's because I would want the child to come into the world in good circumstances. I'm not saying that there needs to be enough money to give the child everything he/she wants, but that the child can be sufficiently taken care of, that you have the time to properly take care of the child (and learn how to as well especially if it's your first), and that overall you are ready, mature-wise to take care of that child so he/she has a good upbringing.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Goddamnit... You're having THIS fucking argument again in a DIFFERENT thread? You gotta be fucking kidding me.

You muppets have exactly ONE PAGE to prove that this can yield positive discussion or I'll merge it with the "wetback saved a life but FUCK THAT SPIC FOR PUNCHING OUT FIFTY KIDS" thread since it's pretty much the exact same thing that's being discussed here anyway.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Encephalon

Goddamnit... You're having THIS fucking argument again in a DIFFERENT thread? You gotta be fucking kidding me.

You muppets have exactly ONE PAGE to prove that this can yield positive discussion or I'll merge it with the "wetback saved a life but FUCK THAT SPIC FOR PUNCHING OUT FIFTY KIDS" thread since it's pretty much the exact same thing that's being discussed here anyway.

Dude, shouldn't you be worried about the other thread being on topic more than this thread having it's own, spin-off topic??

I think there is a good discussion going on - potential, anyways. Better than people shouting at each other about how wrong and bad the other people are.

It's a completely valid topic, wtf ;_;

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Encephalon

Goddamnit... You're having THIS fucking argument again in a DIFFERENT thread? You gotta be fucking kidding me.

You muppets have exactly ONE PAGE to prove that this can yield positive discussion or I'll merge it with the "wetback saved a life but FUCK THAT SPIC FOR PUNCHING OUT FIFTY KIDS" thread since it's pretty much the exact same thing that's being discussed here anyway.

Encephalon, why is abortion and children out of wedlock such a big deal to yo-

O wait.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I didn't say that it hadn't yielded some decent discussion thus far from most of you. I just said you have one page to prove that it can yield it further because if this veers off topic like the last one did thanks to Wilt Chamberlain over here, I may as well merge them and throw them in the Sewers.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Encephalon

Goddamnit... You're having THIS fucking argument again in a DIFFERENT thread? You gotta be fucking kidding me.

You muppets have exactly ONE PAGE to prove that this can yield positive discussion or I'll merge it with the "wetback saved a life but FUCK THAT SPIC FOR PUNCHING OUT FIFTY KIDS" thread since it's pretty much the exact same thing that's being discussed here anyway.

read my first post

Originally Posted by me

btw, this thread isnt a continuation, but rather, it was only inspired from the particular topic.

This is a simple question w/o a subject

Also, I havent responded ITT to anyone so far because I want to listen to what people have to say, and I dont want to believe that most poeple here are like you, who simply throw fits and insults when youre left grasping at straws for an argument.

Also, its about 50/50 on the poll, can you give it another additional page to see where the community leans on this question, which though was inspired, but hasnt really referenced a particular incident btw.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Darsh

...and I dont want to believe that most poeple here are like you, who simply throw fits and insults when youre left grasping at straws for an argument.

Look here... I'm not gonna have this fucking argument with you again. I disagreed with you in the other thread in an admittedly confrontational fashion but that's my own business. I've got my reasons for said disagreements and they flew over your head; I can live with that. However, if you throw this thread off topic again and into the Sewers it's gonna go head first.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

The bottom line is this...

There will come a time in the next 50 years where if you don't meet a certain level of yearly income that you will be denied a 'license' to legally procreate.

Why? Because socialism is an inevitability, if not already a reality, which means that virtually every aspects of our lives will be regulated and funded by the government. Because the government is footing the bill, they will undoubtedly claim the power to say who can and who cannot have children.

This is the future, sorry. Our grandchildren will have to get licenses to have children. Deal with it.

Most amazing jew boots

People should be allowed to have kids whenever they want. I would however advocate that if you scrapped child benefit payments, people might give it a little more thought before popping out a sprog. If you can't afford a kid, why the fuck should those of us who have decent jobs have to fund it through our taxes?

I was speaking idiomatically.

Because, it's for the greater good. The government always knows how to spend our money better than we do, 'cause all we're going to do is use it for selfish purposes when the government can give it to someone else who needs it more.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Like giving it to some job-dodger so their 3 kids can watch cable rather than regular tv? If I had my way I'd get rid of unemployment benefits too, starve the fuckers into a job.

How ya doing, buddy?

As to the poll, I'm taking the word "okay" to mean permissible. If okay means recommended, then I would revote.

Most people don't think before they bang, and that is an issue. But far be it from me or anyone else to have direct control over others actions.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I'll say this about you Darsh, you stick to your beliefs pretty highly, and I respect that. Kinda tough skinned, huh?

This is a hard question to answer, even more so when you get down to a personal level. I think the big problem with people having children that they can't provide for is that they don't *know* they can't provide for them. Unless you've had to financially support another person in your life beforehand, how would you even know how to do it? There's no transition phase between having to support a child and not worrying about anyone but yourself - I'd imagine the shock of having another mouth to feed would come as a surprise to just about anyone. Children aren't like rent or utilities, they're unpredictable and dynamic, and even with some knowledge on how to handle them, you never know what could come up.

This means, unless you have sound financial planning or someone else to guide you, you essentially have to feel your way into having a family. *We* would see someone being "irresponsible" for having a child they can't pay for, while *they* thought they could handle it with whatever salary they were pulling down at the time. What could be perceived as a lack of foresight could have just been an honest mistake brought about by poor planning.

But children aren't meant to be mistakes. There is a certain mindset that a person must be in before they have a child, and part of that includes how much weight the baby will have on their lives. Having a baby is a drastically life-altering process, not only because of the money, but because you now have someone else in your life you have to put above yourself, and do things for even if it in encroaches on your way of living. It's a kind of selfless attitude that some people just aren't ready for, but *when* they're ready depends entirely on the person. This is something no government can regulate, or no other person can dictate - it needs to come from the mind of the person having the child. In this regard, I guess I'll have to go for the first choice: we can't tell people if they can or can't have a child, it's simply not our place to say.

Anyway, I don't have kids or anything, I'm just giving my opinion as I see it from the outside.

Jam it back in, in the dark.