Finishing up Firefly.

After buying and loving Serenity, I bought and have loved 3 of 4 discs of Firefly. How they cancelled this show is beyond me. There aren't many TV shows I like nowadays, but this is definitely a good one and I wish it would come back.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

The fact that they cancelled Firefly breaks my goddamn heart. I think it's Joss' best work of the holy three. Buffy and Angel had too many weak episodes, whereas Firefly was brilliant. I suggest downloading the three Serentity comics too, Dope. Fills in some story bits.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Yeah, how the fuck Buffy survived to seven episodes while this far superior show died is beyond me.

Buffy is a decent show, but Firefly is a great fucking show. I wish we could have a Family Guy style revival for this thing (More than just Serenity.), because this is one of the only good TV shows released recently.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by JasonTerminator

Yeah, how the fuck Buffy survived to seven seasons while this far superior show died is beyond me.

Edited for accuracy.

I never watched either Buffy or Angel, so I have no idea what, if anything, is so good about them. Joss knows what's going on with sci-fi, obviously, and Firefly was a breath of fresh air.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by The Dopefish

Edited for accuracy.

I never watched either Buffy or Angel, so I have no idea what, if anything, is so good about them. Joss knows what's going on with sci-fi, obviously, and Firefly was a breath of fresh air.

Wasn't it just? "What does that make us?" "Big damn heroes, sir?" "Ain't we just."

The dialogue was... it was ridiculous. All the actors knew their roles inside and out, especially Nathan Fillion. I've liked him since Two Guys and a Girl, and his role as Caleb in Buffy blew me the fuck away. But it's like he was born to play Mal Reynolds. It absolutely murders me to know I'll never know what exactly Book's history was.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Yeah, Firefly is among my very favorite of TV shows ever. The amazing mix of western with sci-fi, foreseeing a more believable future with specifics like the influence of the Chinese language, and then having such incredible situations, screenwriting, and dialogue - I'm so ticked that they killed the show, and then it makes me equally mad that Serenity did as poorly as it did. I was nothing but wholly impressed by Firefly.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Despite Firefly's originality, the bulk of Joss Whedon's work is cliched tripe, pablum unworthy of the energy it takes to transmit it to even a single television set. Firefly was indeed the best project and even then it wasn't anything revolutionary. Entertaining enough but it didn't break a ton of ground.

As for Buffy or Angel, I wouldn't even wipe my ass with those scripts. Whedon's work on these shows has demonstrated that he's little more than an industry hack and that Firefly was his only relatively worthwhile idea.

Joss Whedon is to science-fiction as Carrot Top is to stand-up comedy.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Crash Landon

Despite Firefly's originality, the bulk of Joss Whedon's work is cliched tripe, pablum unworthy of the energy it takes to transmit it to even a single television set. Firefly was indeed the best project and even then it wasn't anything revolutionary. Entertaining enough but it didn't break a ton of ground.

As for Buffy or Angel, I wouldn't even wipe my ass with those scripts. Whedon's work on these shows has demonstrated that he's little more than an industry hack and that Firefly was his only relatively worthwhile idea.

Joss Whedon is to science-fiction as Carrot Top is to stand-up comedy.

Well congratulations Mr. Landon for figuring out what everyone already realised years ago. Of coure Firefly wasn't revolutionary. It was just -good-. And Buffy and Angel hardly enter into it. 90% garbage, 10% strong dialogue in certain episodes. Not worth the time, in my opinion. But Firefly could easily have become the most entertaining sci-fi on television right now.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

P.S.: Jewel Staite (Kaylee) = omg married? theft

Morena Baccarin (Inara) ain't bad either, though I'm not a fan of the intentionally sexual.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Now see, you agree that Whedon's subsequent work is vastly inferior. However, in actuality, you're in the minority, as there are scads of Buffy-obsessed fuckwits still traipsing about this planet.

Angel and Buffy reruns still pull in strong ratings for their afternoon timeslots. And I've overheard more than only a couple conversations in which two colossal losers express their heartfelt desire to fellate Mr. Whedon as recompense for all his contributions to sci-fi.

Honestly, I think much of Firefly's quality can be attributed to the writing of Ben Edlund. (Titan A.E., The Venture Bros., The Tick comic book series) Edlund's stamp is clearly visible on Firefly, which helped elevate it above Whedon's other works.

I am aware that Edlund also served as a staff writer for Angel, but this was in the show's final seasons and by that time, the die of mediocrity had already been cast; Edlund had to work with the characters and plotlines created before his arrival, resulting in a "Here's some turnips, now make some lemonade" scenario for him.

I just don't think much of Whedon. Most overrated writer/director/producer since George Lucas.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Crash Landon

Now see, you agree that Whedon's subsequent work is vastly inferior. However, in actuality, you're in the minority, as there are scads of Buffy-obsessed fuckwits still traipsing about this planet.

Angel and Buffy reruns still pull in strong ratings for their afternoon timeslots. And I've overheard more than only a couple conversations in which two colossal losers express their heartfelt desire to fellate Mr. Whedon as recompense for all his contributions to sci-fi.

Honestly, I think much of Firefly's quality can be attributed to the writing of Ben Edlund. (Titan A.E., The Venture Bros., The Tick comic book series) Edlund's stamp is clearly visible on Firefly, which helped elevate it above Whedon's other works.

I am aware that Edlund also served as a staff writer for Angel, but this was in the show's final seasons and by that time, the die of mediocrity had already been cast; Edlund had to work with the characters and plotlines created before his arrival, resulting in a "Here's some turnips, now make some lemonade" scenario for him.

I just don't think much of Whedon. Most overrated writer/director/producer since George Lucas.

Oh, then we're in agreement. I contribute a huge portion of Firefly to Ben Edlund. The man who writes Venture Bros and the Tick can do no wrong. Plus, his bits at the end of Angel are some of the best dialogue in the whole series. "Would you like me to lie to you now?" "Yes, please." And for the record, I watch both Buffy and Angel. But I realise how horrible they are. The good episodes are always written by people who aren't Joss Whedon. That being said, I wouldn't say he's as bad as George Lucas. People build fucking monuments to that piece of shit.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I don't think there was any episodes of Firefly that were bad, even the unaired ones were pretty awesome. I was never really a fan of Whedon (hated Buffy and never gave Angel a chance) but I picked this DVD up because I had 40$ gift card and nothing else to buy. It was well worth the time I put into watching it. I got into it around the time Serenity came out...and although I preferred the series...thought S was pretty damn awesome. FOX has a tendency to cancel good shows (Firefly, Family Guy).

I wonder though...would the hardcore fans of Firefly have it up on a pedestal like they do now...if it was still on or lasted longer? I think its regarded so well it was in fact canceled ...never really had a chance to prove it could be bad (although with my taste...I probably never would of thought that).

I enjoyed the characters most especially...the actors filled out the parts well and made you believe what you were watching. Star Trek shows go on for season after season (TNG and DSN) ...and yet their characters were bland, annoying and pitiful, FF's were fantastic.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Crash Landon

Despite Firefly's originality, the bulk of Joss Whedon's work is cliched tripe, pablum unworthy of the energy it takes to transmit it to even a single television set. Firefly was indeed the best project and even then it wasn't anything revolutionary. Entertaining enough but it didn't break a ton of ground.

As for Buffy or Angel, I wouldn't even wipe my ass with those scripts. Whedon's work on these shows has demonstrated that he's little more than an industry hack and that Firefly was his only relatively worthwhile idea.

Joss Whedon is to science-fiction as Carrot Top is to stand-up comedy.

You're wrong.

Angel is one of the best TV shows to ever grace the small screen. It has some of the best writing, characters, acting, and storylines ever. Seasons 3 and 4 of Angel are better than 99% of anything on TV. Ever.

He is not an industry hack and you suck.

Originally Posted by Crash Landon

Now see, you agree that Whedon's subsequent work is vastly inferior. However, in actuality, you're in the minority, as there are scads of Buffy-obsessed fuckwits still traipsing about this planet.

Angel and Buffy reruns still pull in strong ratings for their afternoon timeslots. And I've overheard more than only a couple conversations in which two colossal losers express their heartfelt desire to fellate Mr. Whedon as recompense for all his contributions to sci-fi.

You're right. People who love quality TV shows are fuckwits.

Idiot.

Originally Posted by Denicalis

It absolutely murders me to know I'll never know what exactly Book's history was.

Well here you go:

Spoiler:

Book was an Operative.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Not a fan of Buffy or Angel. Big fan of Firefly. Why? I haven't seen very many sci-fi western blends, so it was a bangin' good idea. There also is next to NO decent dialogue writing with good timing out there nowadays, especially in the sci-fi genre. It seems like every screenwriter worth anything has realized that if George Lucas set the sci-fi standard, they need to jump ship and make for some other boat. Firefly may or may not be the best thing since sliced bread, but I think it's certainly the best sci-fi series to come out since...(drat, I haven't liked many sci-fi series recently)...Babylon 5, maybe. =P

How ya doing, buddy?

I love it when these threads spontaneously combust.

Seriously, whoever did it, Firefly/Serenity was revolutionary in that it was good. Sci-fi TV has been in the quality dumpster since the mid-90's, and this series showed some great promise, not to mention an original concept.

But, c'est la vie. At least we got sixteen hours of the stuff; I'd rather watch all sixteen over and over than subject myself to a single episode of Angel.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Denicalis

Buffy and Angel had too many weak episodes, whereas Firefly was brilliant.

The law of diminishing returns can only apply to things that last. See, it's easy to say Frefly was greater than Item X, because Item X had a chance to suck. Firefly did not. People say the same thing about shows like Freaks And Geeks, Miracles, My So-Called Life, The Prisoner, Murder One, Wonderland, Freakazoid! and tons of other shows I can't think of. Shit, I bet you someone on the internet could convince people here that My Mother, The Car was a genius peice of television for it's "Hume-like qualities".

I have mixed feelings about Firefly myself. On one hand, it's cute and entertaining. I love the characters Jayne and Kaylee. There are a lot of elements that don't mesh, but thats bound to happen on a show that takes it's genre mix too literally (as opposed to the original Star Trek, which was literally pitched as Wagontrain To The Stars)

On the other hand, its fucking frustrating. The internet has attempted to tell me that this show was important and revolutionary when it's really nothing new except being a "horse opera in space" - quite literally. The things discussed in Firefly are no more important or relevant than those talked about in Battlestar Galactica - which is no more important or relevant than 90210, Dawson's Creek or Felicity. Abortion is no longer a tricky topic - but it is if it's in space!

Yes, Firefly has some cute dialouge but anyone who's seen Have Gun, Will Travel, The Rifleman or Maverick have seen these plots a couple times 40+ years ago.

I also find the character of River Tam to be insultingly awful. You could not ask for a worse thing in a show than unnessessary exposition - and she was a literal embodiment of exposition. Instead of making a subtle or complex reason for the Alliance to chase Mal and company - they had to give a badly reasoned McGuffin in the form of an attractive female. Come on, you expect me to swallow that? Poor insane hot girl!, the internet cries. And given how badly written she was set-up as - once you find out what she's carrying in her head in the movie, it's just complete bullshit.

I have problems with Serenity - mostly because of the changes between TV to film. The doctor goes from being this nice, meek guy to this angry jerk and 3 seasons worth of TV plot points are jammed down our throats in the span of 2 hours time. Sloppy, lazy bounds in logic in terms of writing (though I *loved* the villian in the movie) and some of the "shocking moments" (you know what I mean) were cheap - namely that of Book.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Zeo

You're wrong.

Angel is one of the best TV shows to ever grace the small screen. It has some of the best writing, characters, acting, and storylines ever. Seasons 3 and 4 of Angel are better than 99% of anything on TV. Ever.

He is not an industry hack and you suck.



You're right. People who love quality TV shows are fuckwits.

Idiot.



Well here you go:

Spoiler:

Book was an Operative.

I like how you say this with absolutely no proof of any of it. "It's good and you suck! ROFL." Good for you, though. And yes, everyone has heard that theory about Book. It's never been substantiated. Again, nice hustle though.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Denicalis

I like how you say this with absolutely no proof of any of it. "It's good and you suck! ROFL." Good for you, though.

I was a big fan of Buffy until Season 4. I later went back and bought seasons 4 and up and greatly enjoyed both 4 and 5 - but I may never forgive Joss for seasons 6 and 7 which were amongst the sloppiest peices of shit I've ever seen pass for a complete season. The moment the show switched to UPN, the writing dropped like a fucking rock.

Angel, though? I enjoyed Season 1. It was dark and lonely and had a little something something with demons and shit. But come Season 2 it was pretty bleh. Character development was bouncing off the walls like a superball factory, ideas were left by the wayside and by season 3, I lost all interest in the show.

Is Buffy one of the best shows of all time? No. There are courses in college that put this gigantic emphasis on the show because of its running continuity - but thats literally backlash to fanboy masturbation. We're just looking for validation in buying books and t-shirts and lunchboxes to have them connect to the larger whole. This is a major crippling factor with current sci-fi/fantasy shit - the need to lowball and placate it's audience with fucktard crapola.

Do I enjoy Buffy? Immensely - at it's best it was a good analogy for growing up and alienation and all those My So-Called Life things but with some ass-kicking thrown in. However, at it's worst, I'd find more entertainment in watching a Three's Company marathon in Russian.

The lesson learned here - and this goes with and against Denicalis here - is that the internet needs to shut the fuck up. For every decent human being who likes a show like Buffy or Firefly, theres another 100 who live in their parents basement listening to Joe Hisashi soundtracks, beating off to pictures of Kiera Knightly and thinking that they're some kind of oppressed media genius because they picked up on someone that everyone else saw.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Buffy was good for three seasons. After the kids went to college and Angel got the spin-off, to me it was hit or miss, mainly miss. When you have something run for a long time, eventually you will run out of good ideas. It happened with a great show like The X-Files, so there should be no surprise that it happened with Buffy. I really only watched the first two seasons of Angel, but I'm sure it happened there too. I'm not a huge television show buff, as far as following shows for 8 or 10 years, but I would imagine that it is pretty normal for things to get watered down after 60+ episodes. New writers come in, good writers leave for greener pastures, XYZ plot device has been used before, etc. When your show is using a monster of the week type format, eventually you run out of myths and legends to use.

Firefly would have eventually run into something similar, it being an alegory for post-Civil War America would not have saved it from becoming stale at some point. It was great while it lasted though.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I am a big fan of Firefly. I loved the premise, the characters, the story (to a degree). It was a fun show and it was by far one of the best shows on TV when it aired (of course, that's not saying much. Being better than shit...well, you get the point). I was not a fan of Buffy nor Angel. I thought both were pieces of garbage, thus I was very hesitant to give Firefly a shot (I mean, it was Joss who generally sucks, and it was also the jock from Two Guys, A Girl and A Pizza Place for a captain...how good could it be?). I was pleasantly surprised. It was good.

That said, I wish that it wasn't cancelled, although I am glad they made a movie from it, which was decent (alright, even though it seemed a little rushed, and Book, well, let's just say that was not needed in the movie). He was talking of doing a couple of more movies, whether they are sequels or prequels, who knows. I know I'll watch them, and hope they are well done. I just wish that Fox wouldn't have it's head stuck up its ass when it came to cancelling shows especially when they decide to replace it with Generic Reality TV Show Number 42...as if we need more of those jumped up gameshows...

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

I dont see why people continue to say Joss Whedon sucks when he's had three big cult TV shows and an Oscar nomination

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It's the hip thing to do. Try to cut down those who are generally being heralded as good. Makes one feel important.

I understand everyone's point about it being a matter of time before Firefly sucked it up hardcore, but in the meantime, I don't think it was anywhere close to that. The brilliant TV studio will run a show until it's on the cusp of stupidity, then tie up the loose ends enough to satisfy the masses and pull the plug. I think it was cut prematurely - it still had a ways to go in terms of storyline potential before it got stale. All decent shows have to come to an end sometime - I'm not saying this was the next Simpsons - it just hadn't reached its peak yet.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Me, I think he sucks because I didn't like the first 2 of his cult TV shows. To me, he sucks, overall except for his influence on Firefly. Sure, other people liked him. Sure he got an Oscar nomination (as if the Oscars or anything like that are any true indication of talent...), but I still think he sucks. Just my opinion. I wasn't a fan of Buffy, nor of Angel. I thought they were bland, boring garbage, appealing to hot and horny people everywhere, and nothing more. They were very uninteresting to me. Sure, there may have been moments where they were mildly interesting, if I had been bothered enough to watch all of the episodes, but I'm not going to waste my time watching something that I don't enjoy just to get a couple of moments that I might find interesting. I'd rather waste my time watching something or doing something that I actually enjoy.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Lord Jaroh

Me, I think he sucks because I didn't like the first 2 of his cult TV shows. To me, he sucks, overall except for his influence on Firefly. Sure, other people liked him. Sure he got an Oscar nomination (as if the Oscars or anything like that are any true indication of talent...), but I still think he sucks. Just my opinion. I wasn't a fan of Buffy, nor of Angel. I thought they were bland, boring garbage, appealing to hot and horny people everywhere, and nothing more. They were very uninteresting to me. Sure, there may have been moments where they were mildly interesting, if I had been bothered enough to watch all of the episodes, but I'm not going to waste my time watching something that I don't enjoy just to get a couple of moments that I might find interesting. I'd rather waste my time watching something or doing something that I actually enjoy.

You paint the world's most unimpressive, illogical arguement I have ever seen in my entire life. "I don't like something... because I don't like something!" is in no way, shape or form a way to convince other people you're right. Stupid, yes - but not right.

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I'm assuming he's talking about the premise of the shows, the dislike of which doesn't need logic. I didn't like the premise, can't be bothered to watch more than a few minutes of either show, but I assume that the thing that makes Joss Whedon stand out most in my mind - namely brilliant, snappy dialogue - is likely intact, despite the fact that I'm not interested in watching it.

That having been said, saying someone sucks at what he does because you don't like the premise is kinda sad.

Jam it back in, in the dark.