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 Member 4527 Level 17.53 Apr 2006 
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Any of you had success losing fat while gaining muscle?
Hey everyone,
I just recently I really started to get serious about working out and going to the gym, and I have been going on strong now for 2 months now after joining a new gym, unlike before when I would go every once every couple of days or even weeks, I am now going 6 days a week and doing weight training mostly. I have been keeping a notepad just about a month ago so I can track my progress, and I have seen myself getting stronger from the numbers I'm tracking, and also in size, seeing muscles grow bigger on my body (especially with my pecs, since I didn't have any before, and now I am growing some titties, it's exciting). Anyway, I used to weigh at my lowest 120 pounds, and then when I started going off and on, I went up to 140 pounds, but maybe that was due to me eating more too, I don't know. Now after working out for a couple of months I am at 165 pounds, and I want to keep gaining more, I don't really have a set target weight, but just so long as I won't be a skinny twig anymore at my height of 5'10" or somewhere around there, I haven't measured lately. But now I am considering on cutting out my bulking phase and working on cutting, because I have always had a little pot belly, just a little bit, probably from all the visceral fat of my past days of eating piece of shit junk fast food and whatnot, and I have like 2 stretch marks on my belly from probably constantly hunching over a little and not sitting completely straight up, and no one likes a pot belly no matter how small. So, have any of you had any success doing something like this? It's like a paradox, because if you want to lose fat, you've got to eat less and burn more calories doing cardio and shit, but when you're bulking up and building muscle, you've got to increase your caloric intake and all that jazz (especially when you're a hard gainer ectomorph body type like I am). I'm not sure if it's going to work, but I want to try it out. And I think it would be better anyway to lose my pot belly and stay toned and then try to gain the muscle, instead of trying to bulk first and cutting down later. Anyway, my current work out sets are like this: Monday: Chest, Arms, Abs Tuesday: Legs Wednesday: Shoulders, Back, Abs Thursday: Chest, Arms Friday: Legs, Abs Saturday: Shoulders, Back Sunday: Rest Any ideas on where I could throw in cardio to my routine? I was thinking I could do cardio like 30 minutes every day after my weight training sessions (probably the stationary bike or the stair stepper), and that I might have to cut back on the amount of different exercises I am doing during my weight training, since I usually do 6-8 different exercises per set of muscles I'm training. I usually work out anywhere from 1 hour to 2 and a half hours, depending on how long I rest between sets (but I think probably because I do so many different exercises per muscle set), but I think I will try to set my weight lifting to a maximum of 1 hour and then doing the 30 minutes of cardio. I'll have to fine-tune my eating again too, I guess, but I think the biggest factor will be finding the time and right place for cardio, so I don't lose too much muscle while I am trying to burn the fat or get way too exhausted. Here's the workout I do for those of you interested, if you have any suggestions on what exercises I should cut out and put in cardio in its place: Spoiler:
Jam it back in, in the dark. 
Last edited by Maico; Dec 1, 2007 at 12:08 AM.
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Member 677 Level 14.10 Mar 2006
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You need to drop some weight now. Your body fat percent is probably getting kinda high, so you'll need to change your diet and how you lift weights (the later will change only slightly).
You don't need this. You need to just loose some fat so that you won't cause yourself problems (including, stretch marks, fat cell production, and overall health).
Next, 6-8 different exercises is a huge amount of exercises. Are you sure you're doing the right amount of weight, reps, and sets, with the right tempo and rest? On the last rep of your last set you should barely be able to complete the rep with keeping proper form(no bouncing around, flying elbows, etc.). For example when I do tricep extensions I do 3 sets of 12 repititions with 30 seconds of rest inbetween. Sometimes I do ok(still getting pretty hard by the end) through to the last rep of the last set, other times I almost fail on the last rep of the last set. I know that this is the right set/rep/rest/tempo because of this. Now with that in mind, you should only really need two or 3 exercises for each muscle. For example, triceps could be tricep extensions and weighted dips. Chest and abs are a little different, chest it's good to do 2/3 or 3/3 of the bench presses (incline, level, and decline) and maybe DB and flys. For abs you can do 2 for upper abs and 2 for lower abs and 1 or 2 for all the abs. Now for the length of your workouts. If you don't consume anything while working out then keep your workouts to about an hour. After about an hour your body runs low on energy and needs more nutrients. If you want to go longer then consume simple carbs during your workout, or some carbs and protein. This is a huge topic that requires a lot of careful decision making on your part. Read what others say and evaluate it against research and decide what you want to do for "during workout" nutrition.
Now for the biggest piece of help in the world. Use forum.bodybuilding.com/index.php. You will get a ton of help from there. You can ask millions of questions, read millions of threads, and get tons of good workout schedules. Just be weary of bad information, evaluate well. Use their bodyspace for keeping track of stuff online, it's a pretty well done site. Get big. Most amazing jew boots |
Member 4527 Level 17.53 Apr 2006
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Yea, I've been to BodyBuilding.com before, and got a shaker bottle and gym towel from their commercial side, good shit. Yea, there's probably better workout plans out there, and I should be tracking my nutrition better, but I'm just trying to get into the routine of making exercise part of my lifestyle still, so just doing things I like and think are kind of fun. I was thinking I could try doing the cardio after my weight lifting sessions for a week and then the next week trying an alternate plan of doing weight lifting one day and then the next day just cardio and then alternating like that back and forth and see if I like either one of those plans. I'll have to do more reading on that HIIT; first time I've heard of it, and it sounds really good for burning those calories.
This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
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Member 25298 Level 18.44 Oct 2007
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A good way to burn fat is to go take a quick walk for 30 minutes before breakfast. A lot of body builders do this, or so I've heard.
I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?  |
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Member 677 Level 14.10 Mar 2006
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HIIT is great, if you do it right it's hard as hell though. You get the same thing accomplished in about 15 minutes that someone else would accomplish in about 45 minutes doing a regular run. To work out your nutrition will be the hardest thing to do. To start I would just keep track of calories. Use a good online calculator to get your maintenance calories, then take off about 700-900 calories from that. That's the caloric intake you want to head towards. Start from the calories that you currently consume and take off maybe 100 calories every other day till you hit your cutting caloric intake. If you drop down to it immediately it can cause your metabolism to drop as well, and you don't want that. Then start watching the pounds come off. If you loose more than 3 lbs in a week then you need to consume more calories (the equations aren't perfect obviously). Also as an added note, to keep the muscle that you've gained you should consume around 40% of those calories in protein. Also with this high of a protein intake you will need to consume enough calcium, either in a pill or in orange juice and milk or something. Good luck. I was speaking idiomatically. |
Member 4527 Level 17.53 Apr 2006
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Wow, they aren't joking when they say HIIT is hard. I tried doing a sprinting/jogging HIIT routine around the edges of the basketball court at the gym, but that beat the shit out of me, so I jumped on a stationary bike for a while, lol. I don't know if those machines are accurate or not though, but I was on the bike at a decent level (10, but I guess it doesn't really matter, since it calculates how far you have gone, and I guess a higher level just means you go a little farther each time you pedal) for about 30-40 minutes, and it said I had gone past 10 miles.
Now, I don't know how the bike calculates 10 miles, but I know that back in high school I could barely do the 6-minute mile (and this said I did 10 miles in about 40 minutes, so that's like a 4-minute mile, no way), and so I'm guessing that the bike calculates 10 miles as though you were riding a bike and not jogging, because it's sure as hell easier to travel 10 miles on a machine like a bicycle than by jogging 10 miles. I've done 6-7 miles by foot when I was in this Army PT class down at the university and that was hellish from what I remember, and it seemed a lot tougher than just sitting down on this stationary bike and pedaling my legs. Anyone know how it works? What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
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Member 677 Level 14.10 Mar 2006
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I've never used a stationary bike, but on a real bike I can easily do 5.3 miles in 20 minutes (that's my bike ride to school), so it's not very hard to imagine using levels on a stationary bike and getting 10 miles in with 40 minutes.
HIIT is hard. So start around 5 minutes and work your way up to 15 minutes. Most amazing jew boots |
Member 1389 Level 22.25 Mar 2006
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From the sounds of it you are not an ectomorph. You are neither having trouble gaining muscle nor training like an ectomorph would need to in order to gain muscle.
Muscle gain and weight loss are not mutually exclusive of each. If you are dead set on burning lots of fat calories you need to do long low intensity (under 50% VO2 max) exercises. Aim for about 2 hour work outs. Otherwise I would recommend that you continue doing what you are doing (additional cardo work is always good) because as you gain muscle your rest metabolism will increase and so will the rate that you burn fat through out the day. What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?  "In a somewhat related statement. Hugging fat people is soft and comfy. <3" - Jan "Jesus, Gumby. You just...came up with that off the top of your head?" - Alice
Last edited by Gumby; Dec 3, 2007 at 11:32 AM.
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Member 4221 Level 18.81 Mar 2006
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What's being neglected here is the importance of transition. If you move directly from a serious bulk into a cutting phase you will lose a lot of lean mass in addition to fat. So definitely add in the HIIT and clean up your diet before you even think of cutting. Even for a beginner, 25 lbs in 2 months means you're putting on some fat. A little fat is fine, but you don't want to be putting on more than necessary. See the thing is fat cells can shrink, but the only way to actually get rid of them is surgical removal, so you want to avoid making a bunch of new ones. Personally, I was already overweight when I started, so I'm happy to keep things in the confines of my former fatness. You may want to be a bit more careful (which I think you've realized).
A lot of people swear by the bulk/cut method, and some insist that it's better to gain muscle slowly and consistently while remaining lean. Well, both camps are right, depending on the situation. Let's face it, you're still tiny, and you can still take advantage of beginner gains. You should build a solid base before taking the slow and steady approach. So take the next couple months to slow things down until you feel like you're mostly gaining muscle. Add in a bit of cardio, make sure you're eating every three hours, swap out all carbs for fruits and vegetables and make sure you're getting a good balance of saturated and unsaturated fat. I would recommend you keep bulking until you hit 185. Then you'll want to maintain that mass for a few weeks or even longer. You can think of this as the body recomposition phase, where you can both lose fat and gain muscle while maintaining a constant weight. Just realize that this is far from ideal for either goal, but it's necessary to let your body adjust to your new muscle. Finally you can up the cardio and lower the calories so you can get all sexy for the summer. Well, you probably won't get there in time for the summer if you're doing things right, but we're thinking long term here, right? Anyway, if you're dead set on burning lots of calories, you should not do long, low-intensity cardio. I mean, we're trying to ultimately put on muscle and keep it! Well, marathon bouts of steady-state cardio are a sure fire way to knock your body into a catabolic state and eat away all that precious lean mass. Yes, over a set period of time, steady-state, low intensity cardio will burn more calories than intervals. The thing is, after you're done with HIIT, you continue to burn calories. And whether you're doing steady-state or intervals, keep it under 30 minutes. Your diet is going to be the most important factor anyway. Think of cardio as a little shock to push your body to keep dropping fat against its will. Oh, and as far as sources of information, I'll say that t-nation.com has been absolutely invaluable. I'm not gonna say bodybuilding.com is useless, but you need to take all that with a large grain of salt. Read a lot of articles and keep your mouth shut for a while. Authors to look into are Christian Thibaudeau, Charles Poliquin, Alwyn Cosgrove, Chris Shugart and Joel Marion. I'd be wary of the forums anywhere, honestly. As far as your actual routine goes, you can pretty much do anything at this point and still grow. But that doesn't make it right. Stick to free weights mostly. Stay the hell away from that smith machine. Here are some good exercises (check out exrx.net if you aren't familiar with the technique, or just ask): Quads: Front Squats, Zercher Squats, Back Squats Hams, Glutes: Deadlifts, Reverse-Hypers, Good Mornings, Glute-Ham Raises, Squats Chest, Front Delts: Dumbbell or Barbell Bench Press (flat or inclined), Dips General Back: DB and BB Rows (various grips and angles), Inverted Rows, Deadlifts Lats: Pull-ups, Chin-ups Front and Side Delts: Military Press, Push Press Rear Delt, Upper Back: External Rotation, Face Pulls, Hang Cleans Biceps: Rows, Chins, Curls Triceps: Any Press, Skull Crushers, Decline Triceps Extensions Calves: Calf Raises (very heavy, lots of sets) Abs: See Hams, Glutes and Quads The most important thing is that you balance it all. You want to do as much horizontal pulling as pushing, as much vertical pulling as pushing, and as much lower body as upper body. As far as how to organize everything, you need to decide what you want to accomplish. Realize that your goals will evolve (I've done everything from full body to five-day split and from powerlifting to olympic lifting). What kind of physique are you looking for? Do you want to be as strong as you look? Are you concerned with general fitness? Flexibility? Jam it back in, in the dark. 
Last edited by Will; Dec 3, 2007 at 08:41 PM.
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Member 677 Level 14.10 Mar 2006
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There's nowhere I can't reach. |
Member 4221 Level 18.81 Mar 2006
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I'd rather see him clean up his diet and add in some energy systems work, and maybe switch to more of a strength-oriented program. At this stage he'll most likely be able to turn some of that fat into muscle, so to speak. And then he can up his cals and slowly gain muscle until he's happy. It really depends on how much mass he's looking to put on long-term.
Hey Maico, why don't you give us some idea of what your diet looks like at the moment? How ya doing, buddy? |
Member 4527 Level 17.53 Apr 2006
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What's up guys, interesting to hear your different ideas about how I should go about doing this. I'm not sure what I want to do, but I have been doing cardio every day now. I think it's helpful, because it's always good to have a good cardiovascular system going on you know, and so many younger people these days have coronary artery disease and don't even know it, what with all the fast and processed foods, and I know I have been on that track for a while now, and am proud to admit I haven't had fast food since I started exercising. I have long put off doing cardio, so I think I should start now while I'm still motivated to exercise. Sure you can't get rid of arterial plaque build-up, but at least I won't be contributing much more to it.
Anyway, I've been eating clean these past couple of months ever since I started lifting. I haven't been keeping track of caloric intake or anything like that, but I should make a little diary to see what I'm eating and how much of the stuff I'm putting into my body. Here are some of the stuff I'm eating: Mornings: Whole grain bread toast, scrambled eggs with milk, cheese, and bacon sandwich. A banana and orange juice. Now I'm only eating cereal and a banana, trying to cut down on some of my calories to help my cardio sessions in burning off some fat. A cereal I've been eating for a while now is that Kashi Lean Go Fit or whatever cereal. It's high in protein 13g per serving and has decent fiber and other boring crap. Afternoon: After class I go to the gym, so I don't usually eat anything prior, but when I do get home I make a protein shake that is about 500mL milk and two scoops of protein mix which comes out to about 46g of protein (from the whey protein mix alone, but I know the milk has some good protein in there too). Then I usually mix it up, sometimes I eat Quaker's classic oatmeal made with milk and add dried raisins, sometimes I eat whole grain brown rice with chicken breasts, or I'll carve up some sweet potatoes and bake those and eat it with a chicken patty. Night: Pretty much the same thing as afternoon, so whatever I'm in the mood for. I'm trying to up my fruits and vegetables intake too, and lately I just started trying to eat asparagus, and I really like it, so I put that into some chicken noodle soup sometimes and eat it. Sometimes I buy a loaf of french bread to eat with the soup (and even though it's a white bread, it was a good source of carbs). I'll eat some fuji apples and oranges (if they're in season). Hmm, I think that's about it. My diet is pretty basic and boring (it's all about sacrafice though, right, no pain, no gain, and I guess that it's painful to have to eat healthy when you know there's lots of sugary goodness out there waiting to give your taste buds an orgasm), but it does the trick, I think. I used to make peanut butter and honey whole grain bread sandwiches before, but I haven't eaten any of those in a while. And I drink plenty of water. That's about it. I do agree with Giri on how I think it's good that I lose some excess body fat that I've been carrying around for almost a decade now, since it can't be healthy for me. But maybe once I tone down, I can start going back into the bulking phase and eating more clean and monitoring my calories more closely, so I just eat as much as I need to build lean muscle but not contribute so much to fat synthesis and whatnot, since I figure most of my fat deposits are from excess carbohydrates in one sitting, so I'll try to spread out my meals into way smaller portions and just eat more throughout the day. Sometimes it's hard though with school and work to find time to eat in little bits. What are some foods you guys eat to keep it clean and nutritious? Also, do you guys use any supplements? I only use whey protein and down a complete Centrum multi-vitamin everyday, but I am somewhat concerned about the EAS protein mix I drink. Sure it tastes good, but it has those artificial sugars in it like Splenda and all those other things. Sure the jury isn't out on whether or not there sugars will be harmful in the long run, but I'd rather take something that tastes good that was more natural. I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?
Last edited by Maico; Dec 4, 2007 at 10:38 PM.
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Member 4221 Level 18.81 Mar 2006
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Some quick tips:
-Eat OFTEN (I noticed you planned on doing this)--every 3 hours. -Carbs are fine at breakfast and in the post-workout window (about 90 minutes), otherwise keep them to a minimum. -Carbs should mostly come from fruit and vegetables. Cut out the grains. -Eat all the greens you want. They're basically just fiber, vitamins and minerals. -Eat protein with every meal. Your daily protein intake in grams should at least match your bodyweight in pounds. Try to divide this evenly among five or six meals. -Breakfast is the most important meal of the day! You were basically fasted all night, so your body needs protein immediately. Cereal and a banana ain't gonna cut it (13g is not high protein by any means). -Avoid eating fat and carbs in the same meal. Every meal should be mostly carbs and protein or fat and protein. Again, you can stick green vegetables in every meal. Don't worry about supplements at this point. I would consider whey to be food, so that doesn't count. Multi-vitamins generally suck. I would look for one without iron, for starters. I would also recommend buying some ZMA (zinc and magnesium, basically) and taking it away from anything containing calcium (like your multi). I was speaking idiomatically. |
Member 4527 Level 17.53 Apr 2006
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Do you keep a log of your diet, Will? Maybe you can copypasta some of it down here so I can see what I might be able to incorporate into my own regimen. I've heard about how you should get on average about 0.8g of protein per kg of weight, even 1.0-1.5g/kg for those doing heavy lifting, but I don't know much about how calories would factor into it, like knowing exactly how many calories you need to break your current threshold in gaining weight and all that (and not just calories, but breaking it down further into carbohydrates and lipids and such). Maybe you need expert help from a dietician to find this stuff out? I do know eating more than you do normally will eventually add up to more calories and more weight gain, but that's about it. What greens do you recommend for someone who doesn't particularly like vegetables? I could smother stuff in cheese sauce like broccoli or something, but I don't think that's healthy.
What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
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Member 294 Level 31.22 Mar 2006
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In regards to your question, you have to cycle between fat loss and muscle gain. It is very difficult to do both at once because fat loss is catabolic and muscle gain is anabolic. Most amazing jew boots   |
Member 4221 Level 18.81 Mar 2006
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Yo Rat, what are your numbers looking like?
I stopped logging my diet and starting growing! But I'm on an all-out bulk. Anyway, here's what I had today: -8.5g BCAAs (branched-chain amino acids) immediately upon waking -half a container of 4% cottage cheese and a third jar of natural peanut butter -8 oz gatorade and a scoop of whey after workout, 10g creatine and 10g glutamine, 8.5g BCAAs -packet of chocolate met-rx, blueberries, extra scoop of whey, 3 scoops of peanut butter -worked out again, same stuff as before -half a boboli with 10 oz 90% lean beef, a bit of tomato sauce and whole mozzarella -more BCAAs -giant can of tuna, mayo, low-carb tortilla -more BCAAs -another bowl of pb and cottage cheese before bed (haven't actually had this yet) I'm not gonna pretend that this is "healthy", but it's clean insofar as it's mostly natural, whole foods, with carbs and fats largely separated. Unless you're really cutting, I wouldn't worry about the calories. Just make a note of the portions you're eating. Though if you're looking to swap one thing out for another, you'll need to work out the calories. Otherwise, once you've cleaned up your diet, if you're still gaining weight, just reduce the portions gradually until you stop. The cool thing is, because you're a beginner, you will most likely be able to lose a bit of fat and gain a bit of muscle before you really try to lean out. And even cooler, you'll still be able to improve your lifts. You see, there are two main components to strength: the number of muscle fibers you have and your ability to recruit them. Even if you're not gaining muscle, you can improve your central nervous system efficiency and make better use of the muscle you already have. The majority of a beginner's strength gains are actually because of this. Green veggies are tricky. Spinach is great cold. Take some grilled chicken, some olive oil and vinegar, and make a chicken salad. Personally, I love broccoli. You can dress it up with fat (cheddar, oil, whatever), but then I'd pair it with a lean cut of meat, no carbs at all. Asparagus is a fine choice, since you apparently like that. Even celery and romaine lettuce are fine. My first workout today was max effort incline bench (worked up to a heavy single repetition). A bit later I did DB bench press (3x8), bent-over barbell rows (4x10), and rear delt raises (3x12). Total time was about an hour. Just in case you were curious.  What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?
Last edited by Will; Dec 5, 2007 at 02:37 AM.
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Member 677 Level 14.10 Mar 2006
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For a while, I would suggest carefully logging your diet so that you can get used to it. Eventually you'll get a good idea of how many calories you eat with each meal. As far as what to eat I would suggest you go and start reading a whole ton of material. Some topics I see as important (probably missing a lot too)
Protein requirement Macro nutrient balance Nutrient timing (how often to eat, pre- and post-workout nutrition) Carbohydrate release and it's importance in relation to workout Kinds of fat Kinds of protein and their uses I probably missed plenty... but oh well. Just one note. I found it difficult to consume enough protein through whole foods so I supplement protein with whey protein powder. Also just to be careful I consume vitamin E when I'm not eating fish, multi-vitamin, and amino acids.
Jam it back in, in the dark. |
Maico 
nanaman 
Traumatized Rat