Atheist parents!

Sorry, Phoenix, perhaps i should have specified that I live in the real world. It's nice here, you should visit sometime.

There's really nothing i can say to "back up my point" because it's mostly common sense and the ability to not be delusional.

Now i'm not trying to dissuade you from raising your kids however you see fit, i'm just saying that basing parenting skills off of Dawson's Creek or Seventh Heaven or whatever bullshit world you think we live in simply doesn't work. This isn't so much an argument as it is a friendly reminder that kids don't reason empirically- they act to satiate their desires. And if you don't instill some fear into them, as good parents do, they'll just grow up to be assholes.

I know it's not as nice as the bubbly happy time world you think we live in, but it's the way things actually happen.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Phoenix X

Teaching kids to obey you means teaching them to be motivated by their fear of you, and I would be a prick if I taught my kids that fear should ever be a motivation.

Sometimes fear is a grim necessity because people naturally challenge authority. I'm dealing with the terrible 2's right now. Rebellion is on like Donkey Kong when they find out they have choices.

As mine have aged the concept of consequences get challenged with greater complexity and ferver.

Sadly to say you have to show time and again that you can & will enforce your will in a given circumstance to kids.

Even if they know you will come down like a tonn of bricks on em' they will still experiment and test the boundaries.

I spell it loud & clear and hold the line cause I care.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Phoenix X

I would rather have kids that enjoy talking to me and trust me enough to come to me with any problems they might need help with.

The problem with what you intend is how you seem to plan on going about it.
Children go to authority figures when they need help. This is a fact. None of this "I just want to be my kid's friend." Its pretty much impossible to achieve, and its that sort of bullshit which puts kids in the juvie. If you want to be a parent, then you have to act like a parent. Parents, by definition, are authority figures. When you attempt to undermine this basic aspect of your family, the child will latch onto other authority figures to fill this gap. And you certainly have no control over who this might be. The kid is then victim to circumstance.

If you expect for them to trust and confide in you, and for that matter even care what you say, you must establish yourself as an authority figure. Fear is a necessary part of establishing this.

Fear has a perfectly legitimate function in humans, and to write it all off as inherently bad is pretty much the worst start to a parenting philosophy this side of Dr. Spock.



Getting topical again: I don't think I'm going to have kids. I would probably fuck them up too much by never arguing consistently from any viewpoint; one day I'll be arguing from some buddhist point of view, and another day I'll be explaining things from a nihilist point of view.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by LordSword

Even if they know you will come down like a tonn of bricks on em' they will still experiment and test the boundaries.

I can establish myself as an authority figure early in my kids' lives, but at a certain point my authority will become irrelevant. Knowing what you know (that your kids will experiment regardless), wouldn't you rather that they know you will offer them advice from a well-balanced and knowledgable perspective?

I understand that toddlers need authority figures, but parenting goes on to include everything right up to high school and, if you do your job well, beyond. As your children age, the need for authority wanes and is replaced by the need for wisdom and guidance. Not to say that your authority should diminish to zero, because they need to know that they'll get an ass-whuppin' or you'll sell their favorite console or somethin' if they steal your car, but I think you should be VERY restrictive over when you actually use your authori-tah, lest you become more of an irrelevant and distant boogy-man than an actual figure of authority and respect. I know of this possibility because I've lived it, and I will take every measure I can to avoid it.

Originally Posted by STRIGON-3 (I hate Ace Week)

When you attempt to undermine this basic aspect of your family, the child will latch onto other authority figures to fill this gap. And you certainly have no control over who this might be. The kid is then victim to circumstance.

Yup, couldn't agree more. I can tell my five-year-old to stay away from my weed stash, but eventually that kid's gonna meet someone who deals or smokes in school, and I can't stop him from smokin'. What I CAN do, however, is educate my kids on the long- and short-term pros and cons of any drugs they might ask about, with help from Erowid.org and any personal experience I can offer. It is thus that I establish myself as an authority figure (by being a wise and knowledgeable benefactor) without necessarily requiring 100% obedience.

Keep in mind that I'm not talking about toddlers who have barely grasped language. Your young ones simply won't recognize you as a fearsome character after a certain age, and you've gotta recognize that age and start using logic, reason, and facts to keep your kids from doing stupid shit that will bring them undue pain or suffering, since "because I said so" and "because I'll fucking smack/ground you" ceases to hold any relevance once kids discover the possibilities of choice and subterfuge.

I won't pretend that you can raise young children without some measure of authority, but I want my children to question authority in all it's forms, as I have learned to, once they've become active thinkers and not merely desire-driven machines. I plan to nurture them until they've reached this point, and then offer my assistance and guidance whenever possible. I can't stop my kids from seeking experience, but I can offer them a little of my own.

Quote:

Getting topical again: I don't think I'm going to have kids. I would probably fuck them up too much by never arguing consistently from any viewpoint; one day I'll be arguing from some Buddhist point of view, and another day I'll be explaining things from a nihilist point of view.

Well, just let your kids know that you can, in fact, be wrong, and that they should research these viewpoints and theories for themselves, and devise their own worldview from there. Buddhism, as I've studied it, is mostly a theory of empirical thought anyway, and nihilism also plays a big part in it. Nobody said you had to adhere to any singular system of thought. Even LordSword borrows from multiple systems of thought, it's part of having a balanced perspective. I'll probably teach from a mostly taoist perspective, but like I said, I'll be borrowing from a LOT of different sources.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Cellius

I'm against religion and so is my girlfriend, so why teach our children something that we're fundamentally opposed to?

Simple answer: To educate them in order for them to become informed, responsible adults. You don't have to agree with something in order to be aware of it. I myself am an atheist and have a lot of problems with religion, but it is so all-pervasive that you need to be aware of the influence it has.

How about telling them stories about what different people believe, and how we should respect what people believe, even if we don't agree with it? You could start out with a really easy example that has nothing to do with religion, and gradually move on to stories about religions such as Christianity and Islam. In any case, I'd try to leave personal baggage out of it (although it's hard), because it will make the interaction with other, religious children difficult for them.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by LordsSword

Sometimes fear is a grim necessity because people naturally challenge authority.

I want to see someone qualify this need to teach children they must never question authority and must simultaneously love and fear persons of authority such as parents or non-existent divine father figures. I shudder to think where society would be if it wasn't for the dissenters and contrarians, who we all owe much thanks, who managed to win great social changes through their opposition. If it wasn't for the courage of people like Rosa Parks (a simple and obvious example) we'd all be living in the stone age.

Telling me that challenge to authority is a wrong act is both highly unintelligible and morally contemptible. Maybe some of you should emmigrate to North Korea since you fancy this authoritative and totalitarian principle so much.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by JackyBoy

Telling me that challenge to authority is a wrong act is both highly unintelligible and morally contemptible. Maybe some of you should emmigrate to North Korea since you fancy this authoritative and totalitarian principle so much.

I think challenging authority is a healthy skill that should be cultivated with discipline and control.
I have lively debates with my oldest about what is deemed fair, what is right & wrong and the notion of freedom.

My concern is the motives behind the challenges.
Is it for the sake of virtue or vice that a challenge is made & what is the definition of the perceived virtue or vice.

In the past I beheld the ugliness of the "wrong" to appreciate the beauty of the "right". As a parent I encourage this too but under loving guidance for the sake of safety.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Cellius

Hey here's something that I've been pondering for a while. Those of you atheists here, if you're ever considering children, how would you plan on broaching to them religion? I'm an atheist, and so is my girlfriend (well she in all but name I guess) and if we have kids, I'm honestly quite stumped about what information to give them. Certainly I'm not going to indoctrinate them in any sort of religion, but I also think it's important they be aware such things. It's a tough subject, mostly because they'd be an incredible minority in school, definitely the target of harassment at times, and who knows if we as parents would receive some kind of backlash for not teaching them about "the Lord." I'm against religion and so is my girlfriend, so why teach our children something that we're fundamentally opposed to?

Anyway, your thoughts?

I don't think they would be the target if harassment unless you put them in a priviate christan school wearing shirts that said I hate the thought of god on them so please lets just move on to next subject.


My best friend scott hates god, the thought of him and and anything to do with god. He recently stoped letting his wifes best friend watch the kids because they prayed with his kid. He is rasing his two sons to not believe in god. I told him to at least give his kids a moral code to follow if he won't tell them about the ten commandments and such.


I would stress those commandments in your OWN way to your kids. You don't have to read it to them verbetum or anything but teach them its not right to go out and kill, lie etc. I may not agree with your views but I'm sure we could agree that right and wrong are still right and wrong even if you do or don't believe in god.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Right and wrong are right and wrong not because it was written in some book, but because you and society defines them as such. I agree, there have to be boundaries, but this has nothing to do with religious beliefs. The fact that someone doesn't believe in God doesn't mean that they are any more or less likely to go out and kill someone (actually, a significant amount of people kill in the name of God!).

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Traveller87

Right and wrong are right and wrong not because it was written in some book, but because you and society defines them as such.

Ok, but the laws that we obey are written in books.
Ultimately we align ourselves with the written law because of a respect for the authority that enforces the law.

Recently my kid asked "what if there is no God, what if its a scam?"
I responded with "then I can do what I want as long as the police don't find out. I can be as selfish as I want & I dont have to work on being loving and kind to my family. As long as I am smart enough & strong enough I can do whatever I want."

This revelation caused a look of utter horrer on his face.

The "authority" issue is a heavy deal, I wonder how atheist parents hurdle this one?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by LordsSword

Ok, but the laws that we obey are written in books.
Ultimately we align ourselves with the written law because of a respect for the authority that enforces the law.

Recently my kid asked "what if there is no God, what if its a scam?"
I responded with "then I can do what I want as long as the police don't find out. I can be as selfish as I want & I dont have to work on being loving and kind to my family. As long as I am smart enough & strong enough I can do whatever I want."

This revelation caused a look of utter horrer on his face.

The "authority" issue is a heavy deal, I wonder how atheist parents hurdle this one?

I think God is a scam and I'm a good person.

Explain that one away.

(Also, how long does it take you to figure out you're not welcome in a community?)

FELIPE NO

I don't think God is a scam and occassionally I'm not a good person

Explain that one as well LordsSword

(Also, leave, because you keep making a mockery of a religion that I enjoy being apart of. It's people like you that make others view us as a joke.)

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

I think God is a scam and I'm a good person.

Explain that one away.

"good person" based on whose definition?
See when you go teaching a kid to be "good" it helps to lay out the parameters, give a moral map to align their course by.
The atheist has the challenge of getting this across because of the lack of a guide that is consistent over time.
The parent may be a good one but they are not perfect or consistent.
Society isn't either.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

(Also, how long does it take you to figure out you're not welcome in a community?)

Once upon a time folks like me were fed to lions and burned at the stake. Time changes view on what is good.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

So you're saying that athiests don't know how to be good? So you're only good if you do what it says in the bible? It says in the bible that it isn't through our works that we'll get into heaven, but by believing that the only son of God, Jesus, died on the cross to save us from our sin. So if it doesn't matter what we do, why would God bother making a guide for us?

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by LordsSword

"good person" based on whose definition?

Unlike you, I don't take my good/bad cues from one book.

I take cues from society and from how people would like to be treated. From history, from mistakes, from experience.

Not to pat myself on the back or anything here, but I figure I do a hell of a lot for people out of a hope for humanity. I don't need a book of rules to tell me to be kind to those around me - I figure it's my job as a fucking human being.

Quote:

See when you go teaching a kid to be "good" it helps to lay out the parameters, give a moral map to align their course by.

Which doesn't require a book. I dunno. Maybe I'm just more observant than you are.

Quote:

The atheist has the challenge of getting this across because of the lack of a guide that is consistent over time.

You don't know jack shit about atheists - why are you making any conclusions about them? They are all very different.

We are our own guide.

Quote:

The parent may be a good one but they are not perfect or consistent.
Society isn't either.

You're brainwashing your child, but hey. If you want a robot for a son who doesn't know how to think for himself, more power to you.

Just keep him off my payroll and out of my neighborhood. I appreciate intelligence and critical thinking. Apparently, you don't.

Quote:

Once upon a time folks like me were fed to lions and burned at the stake. Time changes view on what is good.

So you just admitted that you're here - at Gamingforce - only to preach, then?

I won't reply to you anymore in this thread. You pretty much troll on these forums to incite religious debates wherever you go. You make a point of doing it, and you pull the whole "I am Christian and you hate me for it - like god said you would!" shit every time.

Learn to back yourself up with thought and critical thinking instead of scripture from a book. Maybe if you tried that, you'd be more welcome in the community.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by LordsSword

"good person" based on whose definition?
See when you go teaching a kid to be "good" it helps to lay out the parameters, give a moral map to align their course by.
The atheist has the challenge of getting this across because of the lack of a guide that is consistent over time.
The parent may be a good one but they are not perfect or consistent.
Society isn't either.
Once upon a time folks like me were fed to lions and burned at the stake. Time changes view on what is good.

What makes a Christian parent any more consistent than an Atheist parent?
No parent is perfect regardless of their religion.

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by Smelnick

So you're saying that athiests don't know how to be good? So you're only good if you do what it says in the bible?

I asked the question "good based on whose definition?" for a reason.
Sure they can be "good" but based on what system.
Society, history & experience are very fluid concepts depending on where you are and when you are in the world.
Remember I go by a 2000 yr. old book that was considered "good" for society at one time. Now its heavily disputed.

Originally Posted by Smelnick

It says in the bible that it isn't through our works that we'll get into heaven, but by believing that the only son of God, Jesus, died on the cross to save us from our sin. So if it doesn't matter what we do, why would God bother making a guide for us?

I would answer this but I wont do it here, PM me. The admins shut me down when I get on a roll.

Originally Posted by The_Melomane

What makes a Christian parent any more consistent than an Atheist parent?
No parent is perfect regardless of their religion.

Yes no parent is perfect but the book doesnt change. Its like the rules for sports. They are written down too so the game is played correctly.
A religious person can be held liable for "cheating" because of the standards they say they follow.
The atheist cant because "rules" don't really exist. They have guidelines but no real rules on morality to be held accountable to.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by LordsSword

I asked the question "good based on whose definition?" for a reason.
Sure they can be "good" but based on what system.
Society, history & experience are very fluid concepts depending on where you are and when you are in the world.
Remember I go by a 2000 yr. old book that was considered "good" for society at one time. Now its heavily disputed.

Of course it's heavily disputed. I dispute it all the time. It was written 2000 years ago, and now we have goofs like you trying to apply it like it was written yesterday. Yes, I admit, the bible has some awesome advice, and it's neat to read. But in today's society, we can't take it word for word. You have to take it with a grain of salt.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by LordsSword

"good person" based on whose definition?

Here's something that'll blow your miniscule mind...

IT DOESN'T MATTER.

Wait, what? How in the perfect blue hell does it not matter whose definition of "good person" you're talking about? Well, let me tell you a little story.

Betsy was raised by her mother, Joan. Before Betsy was born, Joan left her husband, Dick, because he was a dick. He was a devout Christian, followed the Bible's word to a T, and because of the way his particular religion interpreted the Bible, he felt a woman should be subservient to him. Joan eventually got tired of this treatment, especially after being eight months pregnant and having to serve Dick's every whim because he was too fat and lazy and tired to do anything but watch television once he got home from doing HIS duty which is, he believes, to be the "provider and protector" of his family. Guess that doesn't include protecting his wife's self-esteem. MOVING ON.
Joan was a complete atheist. She didn't believe in God at all. Didn't think God, or the afterlife, or heaven or hell existed. As such, she felt that everything she did in life, and however she affected people, needed to be as positively influencing as possible, so that her brief existence would have some meaning. On every moral issue she taught Betsy this way, and Betsy grew up with a moral code that practically mirrored the one that the Bible would teach her. Everywhere she went, people asked if she was a Christian, but she smiled, shrugged and replied "I don't subscribe to any religion." People then asked why she was such a goody-two-shoes and she smiled, shrugged and replied "Because it's easy to tell what's right and what's wrong."
Eventually, Dick died, and Joan became a lesbian. Betsy married a man who shared her moral code, but he got run over by a dump truck a year later. She struggled through the rest of her life, working for various charities, and eventually created the cures for AIDS and cancer. Before she died, she started her own religion, a cross between Rastafarian and Amish - but really it was just a religion where you sit around and smoke so much pot you can't afford to pay your electric bill. She passed away peacefully at the age of 72, after drinking enough wine to put Jesus to shame and crashing her car into a lake.

To sum up:

Knowledge of good and evil is given to all men. By their fruits ye shall know them, right? GOOD IS GOOD. Period. You can say that there is no good without God, and that's fine. But saying that an atheist can't do good because they don't involve God is the most idiotic thing I've ever heard of. Plenty of good things have been done without speaking God's name, and plenty of bad things have been done WHILE speaking it.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by LordsSword

I asked the question "good based on whose definition?" for a reason.
Sure they can be "good" but based on what system.
Society, history & experience are very fluid concepts depending on where you are and when you are in the world.
Remember I go by a 2000 yr. old book that was considered "good" for society at one time. Now its heavily disputed.

I thought you were banned. Shame.

Good is doing whatever makes you happy and doesn't interfere with the happiness of other people. Period. If you need a more detailed description, I recommend Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics. While Aristotle's views aren't quite in line with my own, they're another good possibility.

Quote:

The atheist cant because "rules" don't really exist. They have guidelines but no real rules on morality to be held accountable to.

Absolutely and positively wrong. Just because religious people shout it all around doesn't make it true. You don't need religion to have morality.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Unlike you, I don't take my good/bad cues from one book.

I take cues from society and from how people would like to be treated. From history, from mistakes, from experience.

Not to pat myself on the back or anything here, but I figure I do a hell of a lot for people out of a hope for humanity. I don't need a book of rules to tell me to be kind to those around me - I figure it's my job as a fucking human being.


Which doesn't require a book. I dunno. Maybe I'm just more observant than you are.


You don't know jack shit about atheists - why are you making any conclusions about them? They are all very different.

We are our own guide.

I don't say this often, but I actually agree with Sassafrass here. We are essentially our own guides, whether we take our cues from personal experience, hearsay, history, literature, or in fact religion. We are the ones who choose the rules we abide by, and what we think is right and wrong.

Atheists may differ in their opinions on this, just as Christians or Muslims differ in the rules and values they pick up on, and the ones they choose to ignore.

From a sociobiological point of view, altruistic behaviour usually serves inclusive fitness (the survival of our genes), or the principle of reciprocity ("if I treat you well, I hope you will do the same thing for me"). To me personally, the reason to try to be "good" is simply because I think it's "my job" as a human being as well. Maybe that is the case because it's the way my parents raised me, maybe it's my biology, maybe it comes from experience, maybe it's just me. But I do know that there is some sense of right and wrong there, and I don't need a divine authority to hand it to me.

In the simplest way, "good" is basically what makes me happy; and interfering with the happiness of other people makes me unhappy (most of the time - I make mistakes, of course, and I have bad days, like everyone). What makes me happy is good for me, and often, doing something good for others gives me a feeling of satisfaction. So I guess you could say I do good things out of selfishness, for my own gratification - then again, don't Christians get heaven for it?

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by Ayos

Plenty of good things have been done without speaking God's name, and plenty of bad things have been done WHILE speaking it.

Now this is a fact.

I'm jumping in this thread because I wanted to see where the discussion was, and BAM! There's LordsSword running his mouth off again, and making Christians look like dumbasses.

LordsSword, check it out, you aren't connecting reality to your faith. You are assuming waaaay too much and it keeps coming back to bite you. According to the Bible, yes, everything an atheist does is wrong. But guess what, the same is true of everything that you do. Just because you are a devout Christian, doesn't make you right. All have sinned, and come short; even and especially you. Half of being a Christian is learning how to be humble and non-confrontational ESPECIALLY with non-believers. Jesus and Paul demonstrate this in spades. The only people they are contentious towards are other religious people who are spreading false teachings or defaming Christ's name by misrepresenting Him.

And, THAT is what you are doing, and that is why I'm calling you out. You are a disgrace to Christianity on these forums. You are constantly being condescending and preaching "from on high" down at everyone and expecting them to listen. All they will say is "fuck you!" And in many ways, I'm joining them even though I'm a devout believer myself, because you are the picturesque example of why so many people hate Christians today.

So STFU and GTFO.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Arainach

Good is doing whatever makes you happy and doesn't interfere with the happiness of other people.

Ok, I suppose this works for kids. Simple, easy to remember.
Lets look at the reality though.

My critics are not making any attempt to make me happy are they? They are in fact with premeditation trying to make me unhappy.
Your statement is a mere platitude that is trampled on by you & evey new post aimed at me.

Recognise this? Some call it the golden rule:
Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

The atheist is challenged by their abandoning of what has worked for civilization since the beginning of time: the impression that moral guidelines come from beyond the opinions of men.

The opinion that good=everybody happy system is proven to be a double standard that kids see right through.

Originally Posted by TheReverend

According to the Bible, yes, everything an atheist does is wrong. But guess what, the same is true of everything that you do.

Look folks, here is the golden rule at work.

Because this member & I have a rule book as a basis for working out our disputes, we both have a means to have unity despite our differences.
Our unity is wrought through our common acknowledgment of an authority of how life should be lived that is higher than our own shifting opinions.

Furthermore we have a basis for solving our problem instead of ignoring that one exists or the conflict degenerating to 2 people just getting their feelings hurt.

TheReverend and I can even strengthen our faith and knowledge through a prescribed process.
Matthew 7:4
How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
Matthew 18:15
"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.
Luke 17:3
So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.

I never said an atheist is wrong, they are "challenged" with their own obstacles that keep them from the ideals that we all strive for.

Life can be Hell too, no parent wants that for their kids, whats your system?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

LordsSword, not even God himself would listen to your bullshit.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Divest

LordsSword, not even God himself would listen to your bullshit.

Only those who were taught through neglect have the desire to not listen.
I've have the role of a father and have had the pleasure of the experience for over 5 years. My stepson is an accomplished student and martial artist of 11 who started out as one of those diagnosed ADD kids. His temperament nearly got him tossed from his school.

Having been raised under the despotic whims of a parent who was an atheist before being shot in the face, I know how bad a person can go. I've seen things kids shouldn't be exposed to and survived to tell the tale, warn others and show that there is a better way.

I know my system works, my kids health and strength has earned the respect of his father who has thanked me himself for his sons success. You have your own ways of course, go ahead, experience and time will be the judge.

How ya doing, buddy?