Atheist parents!

If my kids decide to start believing in some imaginary being, or God, or whatever they may come up with. Who am I to stop them? Who am I to deny them something that makes them happy.
I won't go as far to say that they'll start lying, stealing and cheating if they don't get a chance to believe in such stuff. But I do think that at a young age, before kids can discern the difference between what is positive and what is negative to it's fullest extent, they should have as many positive influences (bliss and carefree imagination perhaps? belief in a jolly fat guy who brings gifts?). This goes a long way towards filling their hearts/minds with positive things, and if it's only positive stuff going in, then it can be assumed that positive stuff will come out.

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Originally Posted by PretzelCorps

When the time came that I was old enough to reason that Santa was not "real", in the most mundane sense of the word, me, being the reasonable and grateful human being I am came to love and respect my parents more for it, knowing just how much effort they put into it, to suspend the illusion that just maybe there is in fact a great benefactor out there that does not discriminate between race, or religion, or anything else, but good and bad.

While sentimentality isn't without its charms, I disagree. Lying to someone about a fat jolly man dropping down the chimney is nothing short of hysterically misleading. It certainly doesn't do much to form a practical mind in developing children around the world.

It is cute, but who cares?

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I feel sorry for your kids. Instead of allowing them to believe that, just maybe, a little bit of beneficial magic (God fits this category too) can exist,

Magic exists in many places. God doesn't need to be the only constant in the realm of miracles.

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And then you wonder why your kids still lie, and cheat, and steal cars and beat up the neighbour's little handicapped boy.

Cuz dey don't beleeve in deh 10 commandments?

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Thank you, but sometimes I think "the truth" can be just a bit more harmful than "Santa".

Harmful only to a child. The truth doesn't go away just by covering it up with a lie.
Only in knowing the identity of 'harm', can it be avoided and dealt with.

I was speaking idiomatically.

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Magic exists in many places. God doesn't need to be the only constant in the realm of miracles.

Who said that God is the only constant. God fits into the broader category of 'beneficial magic'. Read before uttering robotic responses of a devil's advocates nature.

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Originally Posted by Denicalis

Umm... I'm sorry, did you just say that people lie, cheat and commit thievery because they're told that such things exist? Ok, Huxley, do explain to us all about how a false sense of bliss and pleasantry will make it all true. Seriously, try and convince a few of us that lies about the state of the world will fix it. No, no, really. We can wait. We have the time. Go for it.

Or maybe an understanding of how the world works from a younger age might encourage people to do something to change how said system moves. Or maybe you're arguing about base human nature being changed by a lack of knowledge. Either way, I'm sure your reply will be a doozy.

A doozy? Here's a doozy:

Forgive me for misunderstanding. I didn't realize we were trying to fix the entire freakin' world with this thread. I was under the impression that the topic was about family and raising children.

You want a fix? Try getting over yourself. The only real problem with society today is everyone's damnable fixation on themselves, and what makes them and them alone happy. You happy having sex with everyone you can without calling them after? Do it. You happy screwing people out of their money via credit card scams? Do it! Go ahead, no one's stopping you today! You get your jollies by anonymously attacking people from behind on the internet (oh, I'm sorry, I meant "tEh f!@m!ng N00bSxors")? Great! Contribute all the malice you can!

I intend to protect my kids from people like that.

Way off-topic.

***

On another note, thank you RainMan for a far more informative response.

Originally Posted by RainMan

Harmful only to a child.

Yeah, I agree. I just tend to think it's better to suspend their inevitable hatred of society until they're more prepared to deal with it.

FELIPE NO

Generally kids are rat bastards up *until* it's Christmas time, because then they can act good and think they deserve the presents they're getting. Of course, it's also vacation time at that point, so all the easier for them.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Casual_Otaku

that's funny, this little book i've got next to me called the Quran says otherwise.

the earth is not a sphere, it is actually geo-spherical in shape. the Quran mentions the actual shape of the earth in the following verse:

“And we have made the earth egg shaped”. [79:30]

the arabic word dahaha means egg shaped. dahaha is derived from Duhiya which specifically refers to the egg of an ostrich which is geo-spherical in shape, exactly like the shape of the earth.

i'll let that whet your appetite... there's also plenty in the Quran with regards to our solar system such as the big bang, rotation of the planets and other stuff.

i have a question for you JackyBoy - since you yourself say that man at that time had no way to know this, please explain where all this scientific knowledge that resides in the Quran come from?

Amazon.com: The Meaning Of The Holy Quran (Meaning of the Holy Quran): Books: Abdullah Yusuf Ali

I would actually attribute this discovery to the early Greeks but like most scientific discoveries of the day it wasn't to be circulated until much later. I think I say something uncontroversial when I say religion did not begin with monotheism and certainly not the plagirism of Islam. Try to imagine the first few tens of thousands of years of life humans lived on the planet: starving to death, dying in terrifying natural events, dying of diseases which would have been entirely inexplicable, fighting over food and land with other tribes. You can fill in the rest of what life must have been like with your imagination. And certainly having Gods all the way. Worshipping other animals at a very early stage. Which incidentally persists today. I really should not have to provide examples of knowledge humans have managed to win for themselves. To credit religion for these advances seems at best absurd. Religious persecution, in the year 2007, is still trying its best to limit medical therapies and scientific understanding.

Santa Claus: An all loving, all knowing, fatherly figure who knows exactly when you are behaving good or bad and can reward you with gifts for behaving well or punish you if you have not. This is sounding familiar. And much like God, both are non-existent. But think of the implication of this nonsense. It is as far as I'm concerned the sinister attempt to make religious belief palatable for children. Of course children don't understand religion, so why not create a Sesame Street character, keep the authoritative principles but toss out ressurections and immaculate conceptions and the theological baggage and call the whole thing Christmas. And this has a further implication. How many children live (in North America) in low income families who's parents simply cannot afford the expense of this ridiculous celebration. What are these chidlren to think when their pine tree doesn't have so much as a piece of tinsle dangling off it? So my question is this. Is it ethical to lie to children and train them to believe things which are not true? I would submit, no, it's not.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by PretzelCorps

A doozy? Here's a doozy:

Forgive me for misunderstanding. I didn't realize we were trying to fix the entire freakin' world with this thread. I was under the impression that the topic was about family and raising children.

You want a fix? Try getting over yourself. The only real problem with society today is everyone's damnable fixation on themselves, and what makes them and them alone happy. You happy having sex with everyone you can without calling them after? Do it. You happy screwing people out of their money via credit card scams? Do it! Go ahead, no one's stopping you today! You get your jollies by anonymously attacking people from behind on the internet (oh, I'm sorry, I meant "tEh f!@m!ng N00bSxors")? Great! Contribute all the malice you can!

I intend to protect my kids from people like that.

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realise that walking up to you and saying something in a public forum I knew you would read counts as "from behind." I imagine if I'd called you a cunt to your face, I'd somehow be talking behind your back, then?

Also, you're an idiot. Feel like screwing people out of money with credit cards? You can't do it, because it's illegal. It's called a law. As for fucking people in a casual fashion... on yeah, the world would be a miserable place if casual sex wasn't repressed by conservative morality. No one would be happy and less prone to jealousy and idiotic concepts of possession of a person. And as for "flaming" you? I demand a certain level of intellect, mate. If you hadn't come barreling in with a poorly supported and wickedly poorly thought out argument, you wouldn't have been tagged. But I get the impression it's about all we'll see out of you.

You intend to protect your kids from different views of the world? Thank god I'm not your kid. You should home school them, too. Really limit that perspective thing. Dangerous, that.

How ya doing, buddy?

Who said anything about shielding kids from different views? The whole point of Pretzel's original post was just to say that you shouldn't shield them from such things as Santa and God. Don't force it on them I guess, but don't feel like you can't teach them about it either.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Pyromanic

Who said anything about shielding kids from different views? The whole point of Pretzel's original post was just to say that you shouldn't shield them from such things as Santa and God. Don't force it on them I guess, but don't feel like you can't teach them about it either.

Originally Posted by Pretzel

The only real problem with society today is everyone's damnable fixation on themselves, and what makes them and them alone happy. You happy having sex with everyone you can without calling them after? Do it.

He's talking about selective morality, don't delude yourself that he's talking about open access to information.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Here's how I understood that:

Everyone is fixated on pleasing themselves. They figure 'Hey, I wanna have casual, uncomplicated sex with no strings attached? Yah, I'll do it' and not feel guilty about it. It's not so much the act of sex itself, but the general idea that everyone is out to please themselves and only themselves. That everyone is fixated on doing what is best for them in the long run.

I don't know if he's saying "Oh, can't let my kids know about that" or if he's saying "I'll encourage them not to take that path, and explain to them why I don't think they should, but in the end I'll have to accept the fact that they will be free to do as they please. I just hope they respect me in what they do"

I was speaking idiomatically.

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Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realise that walking up to you and saying something in a public forum I knew you would read counts as "from behind." I imagine if I'd called you a cunt to your face, I'd somehow be talking behind your back, then?

I feel sorry for you if you consider yourself rather brave for being so bold on the internet. Frankly, I find that people like you simply do it cause they don't have the sac to be an asshole in reality.

And besides, what the hell have you even contributed to this thread, anyways?

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Did you just say that people lie, cheat and commit thievery because they're told that such things exist?

Actually, no I didn't. I was alluding that people grow up to lie, cheat, and commit thievery when it's all you subject them to. The world's come to a point where sometimes I think imagination is the only escape from all the bullshit. But nonetheless, lying, cheating, and stealing is all you ever subject someone to, it's all they're ever going to know.

Besides, who's a better role model? Fictional Santa Claus? Or Britney Spears?

Oh, and seriously, don't kid yourself that your child is gonna simply know better than to look up to someone like that.

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Also, you're an idiot.

Brilliant follow-up.

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Feel like screwing people out of money with credit cards? You can't do it, because it's illegal.

Oh my God!! Rules!! Better run for your life!!

Weak.

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He's talking about selective morality, don't delude yourself that he's talking about open access to information.

I'm not talking about selective morality. I'm talking about letting your kids have a little imagination! Open access to information? Where the hell did I say I was going to deny my kids that?

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You intend to protect your kids from different views of the world?

I intend to protect my kids from morons like yourself that are too stubborn to see any value in anything but their own judgment. This isn't even a debate anymore, it's a debacle!

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An understanding of how the world works from a younger age might encourage people to do something to change how said system moves.

I'd say that in all of the blathering babble that you've spilled into this thread, this is about the only worthwhile thing you've said. And even at that, it's weak. Children don't strive to change the world. A nine-year-old doesn't look at the state of the world and think to him/herself "Hrrrmm, I wonder how I can fix this when I grow up." They conform. They emulate. That's it. Kids accept their environment for what it is. It isn't until a certain level of development is reached that they even realize that they can alter the things around them.

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I demand a certain level of intellect, mate.

You wouldn't know intellect if it smacked you in the head. Not that it ever will, so long as you keep it stuffed up your arse.



If you have something to contribute, do it. Otherwise, stop fucking around, and quit following me. I'm done with this.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by PretzelCorps

I feel sorry for you if you consider yourself rather brave for being so bold on the internet. Frankly, I find that people like you simply do it cause they don't have the sac to be an asshole in reality.

Yes, I consider myself bold because I countered your comment about it being some sort of sneak attack. Get a grip. And as for being an asshole in real life, son, people around here know me better than that. Ask your boy Smelnick.

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And besides, what the hell have you even contributed to this thread, anyways?

Well I debunked your bullshit, for a start.

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Actually, no I didn't. I was alluding that people grow up to lie, cheat, and commit thievery when it's all you subject them to. The world's come to a point where sometimes I think imagination is the only escape from all the bullshit. But nonetheless, lying, cheating, and stealing is all you ever subject someone to, it's all they're ever going to know.

So you're basically arguing nurture vs nature, and think that if we don't talk about Santa Claus, then they're going to only be exposed to the real world. Which is nothing but thievery and deception? Yeah, nothing good ever happens ever in the world. Ever. Not ever.

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Besides, who's a better role model? Fictional Santa Claus? Or Britney Spears?

Who's a better role model? Santa Claus or someone who actually makes a difference in the world?

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Oh my God!! Rules!! Better run for your life!!

Wow, yeah. That would hold up, except for the fact that you're acting like it's completely acceptable and there's no part of life that is against it. Oh my god, logic!! Run for your life!!!

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I'm not talking about selective morality. I'm talking about letting your kids have a little imagination! Open access to information? Where the hell did I say I was going to deny my kids that?

Oh yeah, not selective morality at all. CASUAL SEX IS BAD!

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I intend to protect my kids from morons like yourself that are too stubborn to see any value in anything but their own judgment. This isn't even a debate anymore, it's a debacle!

Yeah, one day we'll compare academic standing and you can laugh and talk about how that doesn't matter when it comes to intelligence.

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I'd say that in all of the blathering babble that you've spilled into this thread, this is about the only worthwhile thing you've said. And even at that, it's weak. Children don't strive to change the world. A nine-year-old doesn't look at the state of the world and think to him/herself "Hrrrmm, I wonder how I can fix this when I grow up." They conform. They emulate. That's it. Kids accept their environment for what it is. It isn't until a certain level of development is reached that they even realize that they can alter the things around them.

Yes. If you teach them that the environment is fixed. And where exactly is your degree in child psychology? Yeah, no kid ever took up Amnesty International letter writing or anything to try and change things. Misguided as it might be. You're really used to people just taking your concept of things as legit, aren't you?

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You wouldn't know intellect if it smacked you in the head. Not that it ever will, so long as you keep it stuffed up your arse.

Big kid's can use curse words. And you're right, I have no concept of the intellectual. I don't live in that world at all.

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If you have something to contribute, do it. Otherwise, stop fucking around, and quit following me. I'm done with this.

If only I believed that for a second.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by PretzelCorps

The only real problem with society today is everyone's damnable fixation on themselves, and what makes them and them alone happy.

Actually, i think it would be better for everyone of people practiced a certain amount of apathy and selfishness. Really, most societal problems stem from too many people trying to get up in other people's business; trying to make everyone else conform to their wants and desires, instead of just doing "what makes them and them alone happy". People care too damn much about how other's act and think.

then again, i'm a libertarian. actually i'm an anarchist, but i like libertarianism just as much.

and now that this thread has served its purpose, long ago, perhaps we should move on?

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Denicalis

If only I believed that for a second.

Believe it.

Originally Posted by whinehurst

Really, most societal problems stem from too many people trying to get up in other people's business; trying to make everyone else conform to their wants and desires, instead of just doing "what makes them and them alone happy".

Yeah, but aren't most people just trying to make others conform, only so that they themselves can feel more righteous themselves, and in the eyes of others with similar beliefs? It's certainly not out of concern for the convertee's well being... Usually, anyways.

Besides, there's too many groups of people out there that get their jollies only by butting into other people's business. ie: Jehovah's Witnesses.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by PretzelCorps

Yeah, but aren't most people just trying to make others conform, only so that they themselves can feel more righteous themselves, and in the eyes of others with similar beliefs? It's certainly not out of concern for the convertee's well being... Usually, anyways.

if you want to start breaking it down, then eventually it can be said that everything is purely self motivated. everything.

Also, those kinds of people seem to want others to conform to their ideological system because they truly believe that it is the one and only way to behave. And indeed most of those peoples are getting up in your business because they are concerned for your well being (which is at risk because you don't follow their ideology). They consider that a selfless act, in an attempt to save your soul, or your peanut butter or whatever the hell it is they try and save.

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Originally Posted by PretzelCorps

Besides, there's too many groups of people out there that get their jollies only by butting into other people's business. ie: Jehovah's Witnesses.

Ok, if you're going to single out one religious group, you sort of have to do them all. I don't much care for christians or catholics or protestants or baptists butting into my business either.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I was personally brought up to believe in many religions. It made me nothing short of mad. You most definitely need to sit down with them and explain to them exactly what it is that you believe, but at the same time make sure your not coming on to strong. My dads family is Jehovah witness and my mom is catholic. They never sat down with me and both family's made me go to church which i grew to hate. As of today, i hate conformed religions of any sort, but then again i never got the chance to hear other religions referred to as anything good. As for them being outsiders, people arent too focused on religion in schools nowadays and i dont think that they would get much guff. So just sit and explain what you believe and make sure to tell them that they dont have to believe the same and i think you should be fine.

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I intend to protect my kids from morons like yourself that are too stubborn to see any value in anything but their own judgment.

So, are you going to protect them from you?

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by ^ that guy

So, are you going to protect them from you?

Thanks, but I'm perfectly open to all (or most) opinions.

What I'm not open to is people coming in and having nothing more to say than "That's stupid" or "You're stupid". It's not constructive, and frankly, all it does is waste a few bytes on some server out there in the world.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

He had a lot more to say than just 'You're stupid'. Quite a bit more in fact! Do you have trouble reading? :~)

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by SCHWARZE-4

He had a lot more to say than just 'You're stupid'. Quite a bit more in fact! Do you have trouble reading? :~)

Oh, fine then!

{{**REPHRASE**}}

What I'm not open to are opinions that begin with, and end in, "you're stupid", and put words in my mouth. I didn't say (or at least mean) half the things he said I'd said.

Focusing on that, I end up ignoring the rest. :/

A bit better?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

YAY! I'm "that guy." I honestly think "Unknown" works as a custom title for me....

So, where exactly are we in the discussion? Seriously, I'm lost.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

I'll never understand it. Kids have an imagination. Kids won't be crushed when they find out that the fat guy in a red suit was just all pretend. It makes shit more EXCITING for them.

Sass, it has been clearly illustrated by LordSword that some kids do, in fact, react badly, and that the possibility of long-term emotional effects exists. It was exciting to find presents under the tree even after I discovered where they came from. Would you laugh and say retard if it was your kid crying because you lied to him/her? Do you have confidence that you could explain the difference between that lie and a "real lie" in a way that wouldn't set them up to be suckers later in life?

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Kids need a creative environment to flourish. They like to imagine, they like to pretend, and it's a great avenue for them to take in encouraging them to think about the world around them. Yes, magic isn't real. That doesn't mean you shouldn't allow your kids to read Tolkien or Harry Potter books, watch The Neverending Story, or pretend they're a wizard in the backyard playing with imaginary potions. They won't suffer when they grown up - it's a natural process for them to slowly become more acclimated to their environment and the reality of it all.

I agree with all of that, but it doesn't say anything about a belief in Santa Claus. Nobody's telling their kids that Harry Potter or Frodo Baggins are real people who'll punish them if they don't behave.

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I hope to instill some critical thinking in my kids instead. Always question, always think.

Do you plan to tell them that it was all a ruse to teach them the dangers of taking things at face value? Maybe they'd learn the lesson, maybe they'd lose their trust in you, just a little. Do you really want to take that chance?

I'll teach my kids to read, and to dissect literature and film to uncover the meanings behind them. I'll teach them about the real magic in the world, instead of the manufactured kind that you lose faith in, like Santa Claus. I won't jeopardize a trusting relationship with my kids for the sake of a viral meme.

I like to pretend and imagine, I am curious about the world around me, and it has NOT ONE THING to do with Santa Claus. I focus on REAL things that are magical and fascinating, like computers, galaxies, and the spirals at the centres of sunflowers, and it's through things like this that I will foster a lust for life and growth in my children. I don't need some cop-out like Santa Claus to trick my kids into enjoying their lives or being good people or finding beauty in existence.

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...most people need a special circumstance to feel generous and giving, it seems. (That statement has nothing to do with religion) If Christmas fulfills that basic need, even once a year, I'm happy teaching my kid about it.

Maybe that's because these people you speak of were brought up giving under special circumstances, like Christmas.

Originally Posted by LordSword

My position is to just be truthful and not set myself up to be branded as habitual liar.
The Santa thing may seem harmless but by our actions we teach what is important.

QFT. I won't teach my kids to accept authoritarian bullshit under any circumstances. I wouldn't want my kids to forgive me for lying to them just to get their obedience. I want to teach my kids good judgement, not obedience.

Originally Posted by whinehurst

I mean, how can you call it misinformation? wha? Do you really deem it necessary to bring the crushing weight of reality down on five year old shoulders? don't you have any respect of the age of innocence and nativity?

Man, if you really think the world is that bad, then don't bring another life into it. It's misinformation because you're misinforming your kids about reality. Simple concept. There are far more interesting things in the Cosmos to wonder about than how all those presents got there.

I'll tell my kids about the best things I've learned from all the great thinkers in history, from Jesus, Buddha, and Mohammad, to Dawkins, Sagan, and Jung, and above all I'll teach them the importance of empirical thought and meditation. I won't tell them what to believe, but I'll certainly let them know what I believe when they eventually ask. If I get parents complaining to me because my son/daughter told little Jonny the truth about Santa, I'll tell them what my reasoning is, and if they don't like it, they can go eat wang.

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Originally Posted by PhoenixX

I won't teach my kids to accept authoritarian bullshit under any circumstances...I want to teach my kids good judgement, not obedience.

hahahahaha...good luck with that. seriously, you want to be a parent? and then teach your kids to disobey you? that'll work fantastically.

I almost took all that other stuff seriously until i read that, and learned that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Yeah, Santa Clause is the great undoing - he is the epitome of truth and lie (Santa is actually an anagram of Satan, did you know that?) - and if you dare teach your kids to believe in him, it will cause irreparable damage.

Phoenix, your kids are going to be A: brats or B: miserable. And that's not me, that's an actual prediction of Nostradamus.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

whinehurst, sarcastically paraphrasing a tiny fraction of my post doesn't add a damn thing to this thread. Please state a fucking point that you can at least try to back up. Give me some reasoning behind this idea that kids should be unquestioningly obedient. What possible problem could arise where my kids should obey me without being given a reasonable explanation why? Why should I set up a model for life for my kids that I don't want them to emulate later in life?

My kids won't need to obey me once they understand language well enough. You get pets to obey you, because they're stupid and don't understand things sometimes, like the danger of getting hit by a car if they wander onto the road. Kids can understand explanations like Road=Car=Possible Death. My kids are gonna have to empirically discern that they should consider my advice with the knowledge that I'm more experienced, and that I wouldn't lie about what I've seen, where I've been, what I've done, or what I've learned to be true. They'll do that on their own because I'll teach them empirical thought and I'll be consistent and truthful. They will respect themselves AND me because I will have set the model for them. Kids learn fast from the example scenarios you present in early childhood.

I would rather have kids that enjoy talking to me and trust me enough to come to me with any problems they might need help with. Teaching kids to obey you means teaching them to be motivated by their fear of you, and I would be a prick if I taught my kids that fear should ever be a motivation.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?