The 2008 (and 9) weaboos learning Japanese thread *chairs are thrown at miles*

Yes, I know these threads come up like twice a year but whatever. I'm making this thread to discuss the Japanese language and to ask for advice on studying it.

Right now I'm in my second semester of first year Japanese. My college uses Genki (which is a fabulous book) and next week we're starting Lesson 8 (of 12). By summer time (and the end of first year Japanese) we should have all of volume one covered with Volume 2 being covered 2nd year. This class is pretty fast paced and we only get like 2 and a half weeks to cover a lesson before we jump to the next one. First semester was extremely easy but now we're getting to the point where I need to study at least 14 hours a week outside class in order to get an A. I did get an A first semester.

Anyways, at this point I can read and write hiragana, katakana, and about 72 Kanji. I can write fairly basic Japanese sentences with the vocab words I know or have a short conversation. We are expected to learn all the vocab words in each lesson by the time we begin the next one. Lots of memorization , but that's normal in a language class! I'm not surprised though that HALF of my class has dropped out this week since its the cutoff time for dropping out. At the speed we're learning it having a few other classes on the side could lead to very busy study evenings. I don't mind all the work since I've always wanted to learn a second language. Plus learning a foreign language that is so different from ours is quite the challenge.

My reading and writing skills are decent. I'm making less and less grammar mistakes on my worksheets as time goes on. I think the hardest part about this class for me is speaking and listening comprehension. Since none of my friends speak Japanese I only get speaking practice during class. So at this point I feel this area is way below what it should be and I need to work on it since I'll need this ability for my summer trip to Japan. I think neglecting my tape CD is some of the reason my listening comprehension sucks. ._.

What I was wondering is if there are any good elementary level books anyone would recommend I read. Our Sensei said at this point we might be able to read and understand a first or second grade level book. She said to look in Japan town but I'd rather order something online. Any suggestions or advice on my learning the language would be helpful.

Is anyone else taking Japanese at this time? How do you like it? What's the hardest part for you? Did you take it in the past at one point?

Discuss discuss discuss~

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I want to study Japanese, but haven't taken any classes yet.

For listening comprehension you could always watch anime without subtitles. I am sometimes startled by my weeaboo-ness when I realize how many Japanese words I know by sound just from years of watching subtitled anime =/

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Tape? Our Genki book came with a cd for the workbook and a cd for all the vocab and dialogues in the textbook. Although those dialogues sound rather exaggerated and abnormal compared to the speech you'd hear normally.

I'm in 2nd year Japanese in the second half of Genki Vol. 2
It's actually really easy when you're keen on learning it, so there is motivation to study without too much prodding. The standard trick of using a word in a sentence per day should theoretically help.

The hardest parts so far are: 1) the particles, as for when exactly to use は、が、に、を、and へ in particular and 2) being able to distinguish, speak, and understand the honorific, humble, and extra-modest expressions seamlessly. memorize all intransitive and transitive pairs, since opening a door in Japanese is not the same as if the door opens by itself.

How ya doing, buddy?

I'm in High School, and I've been doing Jap. for 4 years now, and I've come first in the class thrice! I bought the Genki 1 Workbook and Coursebook a while back to use in my spare time, and it is indeed awesome. Not that it's much help to you, I suppose, 'cause this is an Australian Jap. workbook series, but I used the Hai! series, which is light-hearted, fun, and perfect for beginners to learn the basics. I'm now using Wakatta! and I don't like it very much. >.<"

You're probably ahead of me, Miles (i.e. you probably know more Japanese than I do) which kinda sad considering I've been doing it for 4 years. There are some morons in my class and we go ever-so slow to try and help them understand... (Ah the joys of school) The most difficult part for me is definitely listening comprehension, like when a CD with Japanese speech is played. Still gotta refine that.

(Request for this to be stickied)

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

My first semester of "Advanced" aka "Learn this shit fast or fail" Japanese about half the class dropped out on the drop out dead-line and about half the remaining people failed.

I personally find japanese to be a bit like math, things just make sense sometimes and just click. That isn't to say that it's easy by any means, I've already forgotten most of what I learned, but that was almost two years ago. We had a book called Yookoso which was set up pretty well, although I did hit a wall when we where near the end of it.

I think most failed out due to people not wanting to listen to the Audio material. It does help from the few times that I used it which wasn't nearly enough and probably why I don't know much of what I learned today.

Anyway, good luck to whomever is in the learning process, I'm looking for some time to go back and learn it again.

I was speaking idiomatically.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Yee gods, I spent my whole college career studying Japanese (thanks a lot, probably useless Japanese major) and you'd think I have some shockingly good tips to help you with it.

Not really. But you are right in identifying that the best way to learn the language is outside the classroom. You're just not getting enough of it inside the classroom, not because of the teachers, just because of language study in general. But, I was pretty much like you, I had very limited chances to use Japanese outside of the classroom at first. (After my first year of A grades, they started to slip in the second year...) I was only able to stop the slide since I got accepted to study abroad in Japan for a semester. Since I wasn't in an international place like Tokyo, I needed to brush up to well...survive, literally. If you could do that, that would be fantastic, but study abroad isn't for everyone, I know.

Any Japanese language conversation groups/tables at your school? Maybe the study abroad department at your school can pair you with a student from Japan studying at your school? One thing that I was really hesitant to do at first was go to office hours and talk with my teachers in Japanese. After I got back from Japan, I tried to do it more often and the benefits showed in my grades, haha.

Genki is a fine book for learning the grammar and mechanics of the language. But it'll be up to your own power to see how far you go with reading/listening/speaking. There's no real tip other than doing those kanji flash cards, speaking Japanese (speak out what you're reading if you're alone), and listening to natural Japanese speak (try to avoid taking anime as a way to learn Japanese...I suggest Japanese dramas instead. One of my friends called a bunch of Japanese people "omae-tachi", which basically translates to "hey, bitches." When I asked him whey he said that, he said they said it on Naruto. *le sigh*).

If you stick to it, you too, can translate Japanese dramas! (Or at least, try to >_>)

FELIPE NO

I'm currently in my second year, second semester of studying Japanese. I know a little over 200 kanji, and most ways that they can be used.

I can hold a basic level conversation, beyond requests, and if someone were to say something beyond my level, I certainly could ask the to rephrase it.

I am pretty good at listening, as I'm pretty good at just picking out the words and grammatical expressions I do know, which for foreign languages is something I think you should master at the basic level. My speaking could a lot better, but I try to work on that.

For practice beyond the textbook (my university uses Nakama,) I usually just try to look at Japanese news articles and try and summarize them in English. I even surprise myself when I find an article that I can actually do a decent job at. People from the SomethingAwful Japanese megathread suggested it, along with other types of projects to do, and it is good advice.

Obviously, seconding Rollins' advice on learning Japanese from anime (and even manga.) It's not terrible, as you can use it as a way of picking out things you know, but just don't learn from it. It's usually filled with improper grammar and/or phrases. I watch anime, but only because I watch it like a TV show, not because I want to learn from it. I may go "Oh! I know what that means!" but that's about it.

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I studied Jap a little while back. I took the 3rd lvl proficiency test so..I guess I know around 500 kanjis. I've been wanting to get to a Jap class in college but it is ALWAYS full. Also I don't want to take Jap 1...again. I would suggest exposure. I completely do not agree as to how they teach foreign languages at most schools. Learning the grammar first is... uh..complete bull. No language speaks perfect grammar. If you stay in Japan, you'll hear totally different sentence structures.

And just for the heck of it...my favorite jap words are:
mendokusai - it usually used when you feel lazy to do somethin
bimyou - this one is hard to explain...took me a couple of months before I could use. It kinda means like so-so but to a negative connotattion
maji - same as hontou

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by AniMechanic

I want to study Japanese, but haven't taken any classes yet.

For listening comprehension you could always watch anime without subtitles. I am sometimes startled by my weeaboo-ness when I realize how many Japanese words I know by sound just from years of watching subtitled anime =/

Same here. Curse my college for not having Japanese classes! All we have are Chinese, Spanish, German, and French!

Closest thing I got to learning any Japanese at all is returning to my high school to help out with the Japanese club that was started last year. I'm basically the only returning graduate who's watching over what's going on with the club. Our supervisor knows a good amount of Japanese and occasionally teaches us a couple of simple phrases and stuff. Ironically enough though, there's not a single Japanese person in that club. Most of them are weeaboos! Personally, we try to drive away from the anime concpet of Japan.

I agree with Mechanic over here though. Just watching some subbed anime has taught me a couple of words.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Minoko

I completely do not agree as to how they teach foreign languages at most schools. Learning the grammar first is... uh..complete bull. No language speaks perfect grammar. If you stay in Japan, you'll hear totally different sentence structures.

True, there's no such thing as "perfect grammar" in a language, however, learning the prescriptive grammar is the only way you'll ever actually be able to form understandable sentences. You can't just combine everything you want any old way, they have to be used in the ways that they are supposed to. This is especially important in formal speaking and in writing (which tends to always be a bit more formal than spoken language.)

I'd love to see you teach any secondary language without first teaching the prescriptive grammar as a basis. We've all heard the "house" analogy a million times, but it works. At least with just the foundation, you can communicate with native speakers, since they all know the basic, formal grammar.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Little Shithead

True, there's no such thing as "perfect grammar" in a language, however, learning the prescriptive grammar is the only way you'll ever actually be able to form understandable sentences. You can't just combine everything you want any old way, they have to be used in the ways that they are supposed to. This is especially important in formal speaking and in writing (which tends to always be a bit more formal than spoken language.)

I'd love to see you teach any secondary language without first teaching the prescriptive grammar as a basis. We've all heard the "house" analogy a million times, but it works. At least with just the foundation, you can communicate with native speakers, since they all know the basic, formal grammar.

Seconded. As true as it is that you probably won't hear too much of that grammar you read in the books if you're hanging out in casual everyday Japan, you do know that most of the more casual Japanese has come from those standard phrases. (The "casualization" of Japanese has been a big issue with Japanese society for awhile now, with kids using incorrect keigo, shortening a bunch of set phrases, etc.) The foundation exists for a reason, because that's what it is. You learn the basic grammar first, then move your way up.

If you just want to learn a few choice phrases, feel free to buy one of those "casual Japanese" books that will teach you a few fun phrases (I needs to learn how to have sex with Japanese girls!), but really little else about the mechanics of the language. If you want to actually become fluent, which means being able to operate in formal/polite society at times, you're going to have to deal with boring old grammar, especially the much more difficult speaking-only/writing-only grammar points that come in more advanced years.

Oh yeah, if you're worried, most anime fans drop in the first week of the first class of the semester. They quickly realize their anime fandom does not translate into giving appropriate time to actually study the language. Usually by the end of 2nd year, 1st semester, (then you get rid of the anime fans who studied Japanese in high school) you're stuck with people who actually want to learn the Japanese (anime fan or not), not people who wear maid outfits to class (I kid you not) or profess their love for yaoi on a daily basis.

That really happened =(

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Welcome - Sasuga Japanese Bookstore

Can anyone recommend any decent beginner books in Japanese? You know, ones that are at a grade school level. Even if I can't fully understand it at this point its fine. I just wanna improve my ability to read a bit faster and don't wanna buy a random book thats mostly kanji with no furigana.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Just tossing out that there's a lot of manga out there that has furigana (mostly shounen series or kids stuff). If you have a dictionary, some patience, or an available translation at hand, you could probably pic your way through it.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Little Shithead

True, there's no such thing as "perfect grammar" in a language, however, learning the prescriptive grammar is the only way you'll ever actually be able to form understandable sentences. You can't just combine everything you want any old way, they have to be used in the ways that they are supposed to. This is especially important in formal speaking and in writing (which tends to always be a bit more formal than spoken language.)

I'd love to see you teach any secondary language without first teaching the prescriptive grammar as a basis. We've all heard the "house" analogy a million times, but it works. At least with just the foundation, you can communicate with native speakers, since they all know the basic, formal grammar.

Yup this is especially true with the Japanese language since it is a SOV language compared to Western SVO. Not only that but the particle system is key to understanding the entire Japanese language and what many 'anime fan types' tend to ignore simply because they think learning a few key words will be enough to understand.

If you are looking to self teach yourself Japanese, do yourself a favor and learn the grammar structure and particle system before you try and memorize a single word out of a Japanese dictionary. And don't even bother with Kanji until you have Hiragana and Katakana 100% memorized. Learning how to say "Holy Dragon Kick" is never going to help you out in learning the language.

Oh and god some of the stories I could tell you from my college Japanese courses. They single handedly caused me to never divulge that I do watch some anime. It has become a completely private hobby simply because I never want to be associated with 'that group.'

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Miles

Welcome - Sasuga Japanese Bookstore

Can anyone recommend any decent beginner books in Japanese? You know, ones that are at a grade school level. Even if I can't fully understand it at this point its fine. I just wanna improve my ability to read a bit faster and don't wanna buy a random book thats mostly kanji with no furigana.

Are you looking for more beginner textbooks or actual books in Japanese? I could recommend a few textbooks offhand, not so much on the actual book side.

However, if you're looking for grade school level stuff, I've had tons of fun/practice reading Doraemon manga...they're easy to find and everything in it has furigana. Of course, it's going to be simple (you've gotta start somewhere) but I do like that you do get an exposure to more casual Japanese than you usually would (albeit, little-kid Japanese, but not too far off from more mature casual Japanese). However, I might be biased just because I <3 Doraemon.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

If I count my years studying japanese on my high school, I think I've been studying about... 6 years, and I still have hard time to read manga.

At the moment I attend weekly class near my college, since the class only have two students (including me) the pace is pretty quick. I couldn't count how much kanji I've been memorizing, but I assume it would be around 300-400. I'm now pretty familiar with common kanji, I could say I'm still 2nd grader of elementary school though!

Anyway, it seems the quickest way to memorize kanji is to figure out the meaning behind the symbols, I usually device my own mnemonic.

Also, you could (mis)use your japanese by navigating japanese sites to find some obscure stuff we couldn't usually find in english speaking forums. Fandoms, mp3, doujinshis, whatever, they will help you to recall the kanjis you have encountered. Don't worry if you don't understand bit of what they wrote though, the most importance is, it could help us memorize common kanji. Also, try to find a japanese friend, force yourself to speak in japanese. You could also force yourself to read raw version of manga scans you have previously read.

Last but not least, try to have your own dictionary. I recommend you to purchase Kanji Dictionary by Mark Spahn and Wolfgang Hadamitzky, the dictionary is pretty thick and could grow you muscle with its gigantic 1750 pages, but you could virtually find all kanji, since it listed 47,000 character compounds.

I bought mine not too long ago only for... $5. I wish I had known the original price is that expensive. I could fetch some quick cash on eBay

And of course, the key of all is patience. We don't need to feel inferior to these who could is fluent already because they have probably live in japan and getting fluent because they speak japanese everyday since we take formal class after all, with much limited time compared to them.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by eriol33

Last but not least, try to have your own dictionary. I recommend you to purchase Kanji Dictionary by Mark Spahn and Wolfgang Hadamitzky, the dictionary is pretty thick and could grow you muscle with its gigantic 1750 pages, but you could virtually find all kanji, since it listed 47,000 character compounds.

Or, if you're not quite ready to jump into getting a real kanji dictionary, I would then recommend you at least get Kanji & Kana: A Handbook of the Japanese Writing System, by the same authors. It has all of the jouyou kanji and about 300 jinmeiyou kanji. While it is not a complete dictionary of kanji, like the other one, it is certainly a very good basic dictionary of kanji for learning purposes.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Little Shithead

Or, if you're not quite ready to jump into getting a real kanji dictionary, I would then recommend you at least get Kanji & Kana: A Handbook of the Japanese Writing System, by the same authors. It has all of the jouyou kanji and about 300 jinmeiyou kanji. While it is not a complete dictionary of kanji, like the other one, it is certainly a very good basic dictionary of kanji for learning purposes.

I love that dictionary. I've had it since I started "studying", uh... six years ago. You'd never guess that I'd started that long ago, because I'm a lazy mofo.

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There's this DS rom batch torrent full of Japanese tutorial games that I can send to someone with a FTP or something. Got it on Blackcats.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Cetra

t has become a completely private hobby simply because I never want to be associated with 'that group.'

Yeah I know this. The Jap Org in my college is a bunch of anime fans. I don;t take that against them because I was one too until I saw games. tHe thiong I did not like was how they based ALL of their subjects on anime anime anime anime...There are actually some of us who joined to know about japan..not about anime.

Originally Posted by Little Shithead

True, there's no such thing as "perfect grammar" in a language, however, learning the prescriptive grammar is the only way you'll ever actually be able to form understandable sentences. You can't just combine everything you want any old way, they have to be used in the ways that they are supposed to. This is especially important in formal speaking and in writing (which tends to always be a bit more formal than spoken language.)

I guess you're right...hehe got a little too carried away. I know people who just takes the grammar in and not the words. Well I'll still stick with exposure. My classmates sure helped me read manga Except I learned Japanese fit for the streets....my teachers were shocked when they heard me speak like that (laughs).

For those studying..and don't mind using the internet, I suggest this site (kanji romaji hiragana convert) I use it to help me translate articles.

I was speaking idiomatically.

I took two classes, and Jesus, the stories I have about the anime nerds. Interestingly, however, when I was in Hawaii and took my first year of Japanese there, there weren't any kids who were nerds. Japanese over there isn't unlike Spanish over here (I'm from southern California) and I guess that the "cult of Japanese pop culture" doesn't take off the same way it does here.

Anyway, personally, I hate Genki (the text), but that's just me. I have seen a better one, myself, the one we used in Hawaii. I think it was called Youkouso. But, Genki can do it, too, I suppose.

If I could relate any advice after the two years I took it's to keep in mind that Japanese is like any other language. I got giddy at first (secretly) that I was learning Japanese and I even began speaking (with my initial horrible accent) and thinking in my head how cool and awesome I was. Of course, unlike the most of you, I lived in an area with so many Japanese people that I spoke all the time outside of my class with Japanese students, which helped me come to the realization that real Japanese is actually pretty... generic.

It's like Rollins(?) said about not watching anime but drama series. Definitely, anime is too fantastical in speech to be taken seriously. Think about it for a few seconds... do you actually want to speak like (ack) "Naruto"? If you want to drive the point home, watch the series in English and see how stupid they sound - and realize that whenever you mimic the Japanese, that's how you sound. Although drama series are better, I'd remind the prospective student that in drama shows though they tend to speak correctly in a grammatical sense, and although they use everyday phrases, they do so in a dramatic way. Don't pause too much and glance at the moon and speak with your eyes closed - though this is standard fare in drama series, no one really speaks like that, I promise. In this case, it'd be like speaking like one of those lawyer/doctor/teacher shows on at prime time here. You know how they are very melodramatic in their speech? That is similar to the drama series.

If you can, speak with real, normal people (and if you can swing it, not fellow otaku) from Japan and copy them. Listen to them, even if they want you to speak more "generically" than you would like. I can't pinpoint how many times I made an utter fool of myself by using really ridiculous language. (Case in point: if you're male, please please please avoid the use of super-cool "ore" to speak about yourself for at least a year, and even then be careful. It's just not worth it.)

Finally, give it the attention it deserves. I didn't and as a result barely scraped by my last year. Japanese really will require something like two hours a day of study, and if that's too much for you (i.e. you work outside of school) I'd question the choice. All language learning requires time but Japanese requires learning two new alphabets and a whole slew of kanji that you can become completely overwhelmed.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Manny Biggz

There's this DS rom batch torrent full of Japanese tutorial games that I can send to someone with a FTP or something. Got it on Blackcats.

I'm interested in it, so I'd appreciate it a lot if you would share it with the rest of us.

I've always been interested in learning Japanese, but I haven't taken any classes yet. I've got a basic understanding/speech ability of the language though, from watching lots of anime/j-dorama and game shows, but I don't think I couldn't hold more complex discussions than where to find the toilet or that I'm hungry or whatever. Oh yeah, I did go through a few "lessons" of some Learn Japanese video about some guy called Yan-san methinks; you guys might know what I mean. I didn't get very far though.

FELIPE NO

I don't consider myself to be a hardcore anime fan, but I do enjoy anime quite a bit, and it was one of my motivations to attempt to pick up the Japanese language. I haven't been able to get into any classes here at my university, mainly attributed to me being an engineer and having little to no free time and lack of a large tree of Japanese classes (we only have like Introductory Japanese).

Personally, I went and found Pimsleur's Japanese (no, I didn't buy it, just downloaded it) and found the Japanese language to be rather intriguing and interesting and it also allowed me to understand more in the anime I watch (similarly, I pick up random words from anime that show up in Pimsleur's later on). I decided to keep on self-studying Japanese by way of Pimsleur's and Anime. I bought a book on basic Japanese learning to see if I can garner more information. I also picked up Hiragana in my free time over the past few months, so I'm somewhat literate (if only limited to hiragana). I suppose I'm also indirectly familiar with a good amount of Kanji too (to a certain amount since I'm from Taiwan and I can somewhat read traditional chinese characters. I know they're not exactly the same, but I can usually get a good idea of what kanji characters mean.)

The other thing I found interesting, since I know mandarin, is that there are a good amount of cognates from mandarin as well. Along with the English cognates in the Japanese language, this means I could guess a good amount aural words and have a good idea of what it means.

This may also be why I think I could learn Japanese more easily than most if I had to. I wish I could easily get into the Japanese class at my university, but A) There's only one Japanese class, B) It's only offered in the Fall (JPN 1105 is in the fall, there's JPN 1106 in the spring, but I doubt it's a good idea to take 1106 without 1105.), and C) That class's capacity is only 25 people out of the entire university, so it's damn near impossible to get in. Consider yourself lucky (or consider me unlucky).

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Rollins

Are you looking for more beginner textbooks or actual books in Japanese? I could recommend a few textbooks offhand, not so much on the actual book side.

However, if you're looking for grade school level stuff, I've had tons of fun/practice reading Doraemon manga...they're easy to find and everything in it has furigana. Of course, it's going to be simple (you've gotta start somewhere) but I do like that you do get an exposure to more casual Japanese than you usually would (albeit, little-kid Japanese, but not too far off from more mature casual Japanese). However, I might be biased just because I <3 Doraemon.

Not text books. Genki itself is doing fine. Though I'm thinking of getting a kanji flash card kit. I wanna learn more kanji than the 15 or so we learn every lesson. But yeah, I'm looking more at actual books or raw japanese manga that's easy for beginners. I'll check out Doraemon.

Today I bought a journal from Wal-mart so I can write an entry in Japanese every other day. I can practice what I know now and in future entries I can integrate the new sentence structures and vocabulary words I learn and make longer more detailed entries. This should help me remember older vocab (if I can find ways to use them) as well as help me create sentences faster. I'm hoping in the next 6 months it'll take less time to write out an entry.

I still need to work on my speaking and listening comprehension. We did listening exercises in class yesterday and I did rather poorly. I have to replay a single sentences multiple times before I can get what they said since I'm not used to hearing my vocab words spoken so quickly. Plus when I'm put on the spot in class to make up a sentence to the picture our sensei is holding up my mind often goes blank. There's a Japanese meet-up group in Sacramento and I think I'll try to attend the next meeting and make a few friends I could possibly practice with off meeting hours. I have a vocal test in two weeks and I'm nowhere close to ready. ._.

Jam it back in, in the dark.