The nature of religon

This is a thread about the nature of religion as a whole.
Is it an archaic and outdated concept whose only purpose it is to explain what we do not understand?
Does it explain the whys of life or not?
Is it just an invention of individuals to attempt to wield power over others?
Is it the unavoidable satisfaction of a certain part of our human nature?
Are we designed to be like that?

Discuss. Politely.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Personally, and this is only personally, I think religion is archaeic and has no real purpose but to offer salvation to those who are lost among humanity or need an imaginary reason why things are.

I think people just need to feel less alone, by nature. So they make up some stories. Some really GREAT stories, but stories nontheless.

I don't think that religion, in itself, is a bad thing. Only when it is abused and used as a power device does it turn into something outright evil. People should be able to think for themselves, and religion is counterproductive to that point.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

My personal beliefs(in a very truncated form):

There is an aspect of human nature which demands meaning to be ascribed to our lives. We have trouble functioning properly in our lives when we do not have this satisfied. I feel this is actually part of the deliberate design of human beings. Since thi is design, it is only logical to figure that there is a designer, which I feel is God.
God placed in ourselves this yearning for meaning, and I feel that Christianity is the proper vessel through which this is satisfied.

Double Post:

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

I don't think that religion, in itself, is a bad thing. Only when it is abused and used as a power device does it turn into something outright evil. People should be able to think for themselves, and religion is counterproductive to that point.

I want to know, and take your time to properly and thoroughly explain this, what do you think "religion" IS?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Fyodor D.

I want to know, and take your time to properly and thoroughly explain this, what do you think "religion" IS?

I could write an entire essay on it, but I'll try to keep it as brief and concise as I can. (Keep in mind, I am terrible with words.)

I think religion is just a human construct in which people put all their hopes, dreams, and faith into. I can imagine that without religion, our history as a people would have been vastly different.

Who would those caveman have begged for rain, afterall.

It's a feeling of powerlessness which summarizes religion, in my opinion. ^_^

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

I could write an entire essay on it, but I'll try to keep it as brief and concise as I can. (Keep in mind, I am terrible with words.)

I think religion is just a human construct in which people put all their hopes, dreams, and faith into. I can imagine that without religion, our history as a people would have been vastly different.

Who would those caveman have begged for rain, afterall.

It's a feeling of powerlessness which summarizes religion, in my opinion. ^_^

I am just wondering (so don't think I am attacking), why do you suppose that we have a tendency to put our hopes, dreams, and faith in something external?
Why couldn't we accept that things are not within our control? (although, some religions already ackowledge that things are totally out of our control... like Christianity... so I think that is a bit off :-P )

Anywho, I am off to a friend's house, so I will pick this up later when I get back home.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Sass:
I agree that a huge part of religion is to bring hope to an overall sense of hopelessness. However, I think its something slightly more than that.

For one, religion is a social construct. You have a hierachy, and places of worship are for the most part places of instruction and community. Many forms of religious worship contain sermons, a method of instructing followers and gioving advice. There is also an emphasis or payer / meditation and the like. Even if prayers are unheard, they force someone to think about a problem they may have and give them confidence that it can be solved.

To me, religion is an intrinsic part of human nature. There just seems to be a part of us that requires the existence of a higher power (for atheists, the higher power is reason / science). It may be there or it may just be a fragment of consciousness or our evolution as a species. But it is most definately there. I feel it every time I meditate and reach that state where all conscious thought stops and the entire body feels enveloped in a great ocean. It's a very powerful feeling and it leaves me with a sense of calm and knowledge that my problems will work themselves out with the right amount of effort.

In one sentence, religion is the power of prayer and reflection submitted to a higher power. At least for me it is.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Personally, and this is only personally, I think religion is archaeic and has no real purpose but to offer salvation to those who are lost among humanity or need an imaginary reason why things are.

I agree with most of this. Since most people don't consider their god(s) to be imaginary, I don't really see it the way you put it.

For a lot of people it's a tool used to explain things they cannot rationally explain. Some people are uncomfortable with unanswered questions.

A lot of self-centered people NEED it to keep them from doing immoral stuff.

Others need it to boost their confidence. Life is scary, and having an all-knowing, all-powerful being on/at their side makes going out into the world easier.

In general, I think most believers mix these three factors together.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Fyodor D.

I am just wondering (so don't think I am attacking), why do you suppose that we have a tendency to put our hopes, dreams, and faith in something external?

Because we have no power to control what happens to us here in this life.

Now, I am not talking about today. I am talking about in the days where there was major issues in society and nature.

People had no way of controlling what happened to who and when. So they attributed it to something.

Quote:

Why couldn't we accept that things are not within our control? (although, some religions already ackowledge that things are totally out of our control... like Christianity... so I think that is a bit off :-P )

I disagree with the latter statement (in parenthesis) almost entirely. I think Christianity - and almost all other religions do say things are in our control. Heaven. Hell. Commandments. Pillars. Expectations. Codes. Ethics, even.

Quote:

Anywho, I am off to a friend's house, so I will pick this up later when I get back home.

Yea, I'm off to dinner with friends too - but honestly, I really look forward to a nice, civil conversation like this. <3

Originally Posted by Moon

(CandleTree, right? Sorry!)
I agree that a huge part of religion is to bring hope to an overall sense of hopelessness. However, I think its something slightly more than that.

For one, religion is a social construct. You have a hierachy, and places of worship are for the most part places of instruction and community. Many forms of religious worship contain sermons, a method of instructing followers and gioving advice. There is also an emphasis or prayer / meditation and the like. Even if prayers are unheard, they force someone to think about a problem they may have and give them confidence that it can be solved.

Agree for my purposes.

Quote:

To me, religion is an intrinsic part of human nature. There just seems to be a part of us that requires the existence of a higher power (for atheists, the higher power is reason / science).

Now, I am atheist, but I do not find that math and science are absolute. Pang and I talk about this constantly (and he avoids bringing it up anymore).

I think math and science work only from our perspective. I think we've read the chapter titles in a book, if I can use a metaphor. We may have some things right, but we haven't seen the big picture yet. We're likely to never see it.

Does that sound religious? Maybe. But I do not have faith or hope in anything - including science. I can see how some people would identify it as a sort of religion, and I AGREE that a lot of people "worship" it, in a sense. It holds answers. Science and religion parrallel in a lot of very interesting ways. But it should be observed that nothing - and I mean nothing (includiing nature) should be sought out for answers of a reason to believe in anything.

What science offers as fact may not be fact at all.

We know science is discovering new things everyday on a whole. Some of things contradict what we have found in the past, and will contradict things we will find in the future.

There are no definites. Welcome to the universe. ^_^

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It may be there or it may just be a fragment of consciousness or our evolution as a species. But it is most definately there. I feel it every time I meditate and reach that state where all conscious thought stops and the entire body feels enveloped in a great ocean. It's a very powerful feeling and it leaves me with a sense of calm and knowledge that my problems will work themselves out with the right amount of effort.

I don't believe in meditation, either. I mean, sure, it can work, if you put faith in it. But like anything, unless you believe in it, it's not there. Your mind is a powerful, powerful thing.

Quote:

In one sentence, religion is the power of prayer and reflection submitted to a higher power. At least for me it is.

So long as it helps in the journey of life. <3

Eks, I almost entirely agree with you. But I don't have time to type everything out that I want to. ^_^

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

eks:

Quote:

A lot of self-centered people NEED it to keep them from doing immoral stuff.

If a person uses religion as a reason to not do immoral things, doesn't it intrinsically mean they are NOT self-centered?

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Others need it to boost their confidence.

That is a major part of it, but it also is something that you can fall back upon. If there is a major problem in life, religion provides a means of dealing with it. It also instills a sense of calm and serenity.

Sass (Yeah, Moon = Candle Tree):

Quote:

Now, I am atheist, but I do not find that math and science are absolute. Pang and I talk about this constantly (and he avoids bringing it up anymore). I think math and science work only from our perspective.

In a sense, I think religion also only works from our perspective as well. Religious thought certainly gives the notion of an absolute, but in reality does not. There are too many interpretations of religious texts and teachings to allow that. Rather, religion is more so a method of discovery. True, a religious doctrine dictates that certain things are true (like mathematical axioms), but allows the observer to take them in a personal way.

Take the religious notion of God. His existence is asserted as true, but exactly what is God is left to the believer. Is he a being, or is he an omniscent force? Heck, even the Bible isn't sure what God is. In Genesis 4:26, God is asserted to be an anthropomorphic being without human flaw, whereas in Deuteronomy 12:5, God is asserted to be an all-permeating, omniscient force.

This is a lot like what reason and science does. It takes something that is asserted to be true and builds upon them. For example, the number system is based on 8 axioms (or set theory, depending which route you choose).

Hence, it is less so a matter of what is absolute, it is more so the system you are working on and assuming as true. It is not necessarily THE system, as I don't believe that there is one correct religion / interpretation, but it is a system.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I think that something people often overlook is simply the social aspect of religion. It's somewhere to go regularly and meet new people. This certainly isn't its origin, but many certainly practice for this reason now.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Moon

If a person uses religion as a reason to not do immoral things, doesn't it intrinsically mean they are NOT self-centered?

Of course. What mean is that they need a guide to tell/show them certain things are wrong/harmful.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Well, we all do. Whether you call it religion or society. You weren't born knowing the difference.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Throughout time, mankind has sought explanations for the "Why?"s of the universe. Religion now, as it has always been, is an attempt by us to explain and apply reason to the world around us. It gives us a sense of purpose, a sense of hope. It is not an outdated concept. I don't believe it will ever be outdated--it just might become really silly. "The Church of Phil" or something like that.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Minion

Well, we all do. Whether you call it religion or society. You weren't born knowing the difference.

So you're saying the two are comparable? I heard they used to burn women at the stake. Society said that was okay to do.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Minion

Well, we all do. Whether you call it religion or society. You weren't born knowing the difference.

No we don't. We weren't born knowing the difference, no. However, genuinely self-effacing people actually take the time to sit there and realize how their actions have negative effects on people. Same people don't need people/religion/society/whatever telling them something is 'wrong,' but reach their on conclusions on 'wrong' based on how it affects people.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Personally, and this is only personally, I think religion is archaeic and has no real purpose but to offer salvation to those who are lost among humanity or need an imaginary reason why things are.

I think people just need to feel less alone, by nature. So they make up some stories. Some really GREAT stories, but stories nontheless.

I don't think that religion, in itself, is a bad thing. Only when it is abused and used as a power device does it turn into something outright evil. People should be able to think for themselves, and religion is counterproductive to that point.

Well said. I can mirror my opinions with this. I merely see religion as a facet of hope to those who are really on the edge. I wouldn't call religion evil either, so long as it doesn't endoctrinate people through force or anything. So that would be a nay on the croyance thing.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

But if Humanity created religion to have a security of never being alone, why do we have families? Wives? And surround ourselves with other people? I know husbands and wives still have faith, yet they are not alone, they have each other and family members. Do you mean to never be alone on a higher plane? Other than the physical?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Because we have no power to control what happens to us here in this life.

Now, I am not talking about today. I am talking about in the days where there were major issues in society and nature.

People had no way of controlling what happened to who and when. So they attributed it to something.

That however doesn't explain WHY you think that people feel the need to put their hope in something. At least, I do not feel that there is a coherent connection. Let me paraphrase, to see if I get you correctly:

"Why must we put our hopes and faith in things"
"Because when humanity was young, many things happened to us which we had no control over"

It does not seem like you answered my question at all. Why is there the need to put our faith in something? It does not seem like you are making the logical link from "we cannot control everything" to "we put our hopes and faith in something"
Perhaps it is just me right now. My brain is getting a bit scattered.

Quote:

I disagree with the latter statement (in parenthesis) almost entirely. I think Christianity - and almost all other religions do say things are in our control. Heaven. Hell. Commandments. Pillars. Expectations. Codes. Ethics, even.

Now, there are some things which Christianity says you DO have control over; but that is something ANYONE would say they have control over; even you yourself would say that we have control over our personal ethics. You do not need religious beliefs to assert that. There are things in your life which you have control over, and there are things in your life for which you cannot. You have pointed out the ones that are obviously within a person's control, but neglect the things which are not. Such things are: life, God, and anyone else. Unless of course you are a strict Calvinist, which then, you would believe that not even your own salvation is under your control. But I am not Calvinist, and I do not think that is good theology to begin with.
I don't know exactly where I am going with this, but that I totally disagree with your entirely disagreeing with me. :-Þ

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by SMX

No we don't. We weren't born knowing the difference, no. However, genuinely self-effacing people actually take the time to sit there and realize how their actions have negative effects on people. Same people don't need people/religion/society/whatever telling them something is 'wrong,' but reach their on conclusions on 'wrong' based on how it affects people.

Right. And you weren't influenced in any way by the people around you?

And is it possible that your preception is wrong? Maybe something doesn't appear to be affecting people, but it is?

How ya doing, buddy?

Oh wait. You must be one of those people that understand 'wrong' as absolute. Nevermind.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Perhaps it's just me, but you're not making a great deal of sense.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Religion is a good and bad thing.

The good thing is many of the major religions preach peace, love, and respect for one another. If people really lived by those guidelines, then there would be no war now would there?

The bad thing is a lot of people do not follow those guidelines, and think their religion is the best, and ask their god to destroy those who oppose them, when in reality, the religion states that god and their prophet is merciful. These people become extremists, and people die everyday because of them.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Fyodor D.

That however doesn't explain WHY you think that people feel the need to put their hope in something. At least, I do not feel that there is a coherent connection. Let me paraphrase, to see if I get you correctly:

"Why must we put our hopes and faith in things"
"Because when humanity was young, many things happened to us which we had no control over"

Well, that is true. Everything used to be much more spiritual rather than scientific, and people believed that everything that happened, good or bad, was an act of God (or of some higher power). To bring that more up to date though, I think faith these days gives people hope in the sense that they feel they have someone to turn to no matter how bad things are (by praying to God it feels like someone is listening and cares about them). Religion seems to have a great influence still in third world countries; whenever we see news reports of the countries hit by say earthquakes, tsunamis or famine, there always seem to be a lot of people turning to God. I'll keep the politics of aid out of this, but apart from that, the only belief these people do have that they will survive is that God will come and rescue them. Without this belief, I think many of these people would give up hope.

However, in developed countries I agree that religion is quite archaic and seems to be more of a cause of conflict these days (religious extremists etc). I have always been atheist and have never believed in any higher form of existence such as a god, and I don't see any issue with this. Even people who call themselves religious aren't all following their holy book 100% any more (heard reports of Sunday church numbers falling for example); I think these people look for a balance between religion and society.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Minion

Perhaps it's just me, but you're not making a great deal of sense.

I'm basically saying that your responds gave away some huge flags on how your mind probably evaluates 'right' and 'wrong.' Because I didn't want to get off topic, which I will if I took the time to arugue against your statement, I just said nevermind.

How ya doing, buddy?

I don't think you would be going off topic much by answering my question. It's a simple question. How do you know your preception of right and wrong or what "affects people" is valid?

Jam it back in, in the dark.