Graduate School

I am a Junior in College and I am weighing all the options for my future. One of the most interesting ones is attending graduate school to become an academic.

I will quote an article I came across:

Graduate School in the Humanities: Just Don't Go - Chronicle.com

Quote:

The reality is that less than half of all doctorate holders — after nearly a decade of preparation, on average — will ever find tenure-track positions.

Now, a lot of very qualified people end up getting part-time positions with no benefits or better future in sight. The academic system is antiquated and completely arbitrary during times of grade inflation.

Are any of you guys graduate students? What do you make of it?

How ya doing, buddy?

Political Palace is just not the right place for this topic.

That bein said, what are you lookin at grad school for? I'm attending a graduate program (haven't decided which one yet) for physics in the fall.

Some programs (particularly the sciences) have much more job opportunities with a PhD even if you're not going into academia.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I am looking for a lit crit program, most likely. In those the story is quite different from the sciences.

I thought I could have sparked some discussion about education and values in modern culture, but perhaps my first post just wasn't pointed enough.

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From just a quick glance around, if you're pursuing a doctorate in humanties, a tenure track position should not be your only option. Here's a New York times article which says more or less the same thing as the previous article (even cites it).

Another article, also penned by Thomas H. Benton, stresses the importance of planning on not being able to get a job within academia and to consider other options.

In my eyes, there's nothing wrong with trying to achieve an tenure track career. However, you can't fixate on that goal to the point where you cannot put your PhD to good use elsewhere.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

What do you mean, cannot? A lot of graduate programs simply prepare you to be a professor.

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Originally Posted by Tamburlaine

What do you mean, cannot? A lot of graduate programs simply prepare you to be a professor.

Well, I was suggesting that you have a contingency plan in which you haven't wasted the last 10 years of your life. Basically, I think that it's quite difficult to predict how competitive someone is in the academia job market unless you come from a top tier institution. In physics, over half of the tenured professors have come from a total of eight universities.

Given that it's hard to be confident that you'll get a job in academia, I'd think it prudent to ensure that those years spent achieving a PhD will be put to use, even if it turns out not be in an academic setting.

Also, does it really often take ten years to get a doctorate in humanities? I'm hoping to be done with mine in five at most.

How ya doing, buddy?

How long it takes to get your PhD often depends a lot on the school you're attending, the amount of coursework that's required, and the research group you're joining. For example, at my school, I'm required to take a year and a half of classes, while other departments are only required to take one quarter of classes. That helps them get started faster. If you're in a research group that's got a very strong focus and you're basically assigned a project by your advisor, you can tend to finish faster since there's a lot less of the screwing around trying to figure out what you want to do which is typical in other labs.

I know in my research group finishing in 5 years is fairly rare, and I expect to be here five and a half to six years. Some of my friends off at other schools stand a chance at getting out in less than five due to the nature of their programs and research.

Oh, and also, if you're doing theory you can generally expect to take longer to get your PhD than someone doing experimental work. There are also fields fairly well known for taking a long time to give out PhDs. I think one of the biggest is Astronomy, since if you're interested in studying supernova, but you don't get a good one for a few years, then, well, hope you enjoy your school.

Anyway, I'm in a graduate program doing engineering, so even if I don't manage to land a tenure-track position, there are lots of pretty rad jobs out there. I'm hoping to post-doc in a national lab like Argonne or Oak Ridge to see if that would be a good career alternative for me.

FELIPE NO

Yes, it's all good and nice when you are getting an engineering PhD. But that's obviously not the case. We have all grown up hearing that "you can't ever get too much education" or "invest in yourself." Well, I am about to invest another 7-10 years as well as 400k dollars (on top of the 200k I paid for undergraduate) just to end up on an *extremely* chancy field. Doesn't that seem a bit outrageous? Shouldn't we prize more than just engineers at this day an age?

Before the collapse, undergrads from my school would just work at J. P. Morgan or go into consulting and make a killing immediately. I don't see why I shouldn't have done the same thing. In fact, I don't see why I shouldn't have just kept the money I used to go to school and opened up a business.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Tamburlaine

Before the collapse, undergrads from my school would just work at J. P. Morgan or go into consulting and make a killing immediately. I don't see why I shouldn't have done the same thing. In fact, I don't see why I shouldn't have just kept the money I used to go to school and opened up a business.

Is money all that matters here, or are you genuinely interested in lit crit?

I mean, the dudes at JP Morgan are one thing. But literary criticism is another thing. I assume you'd really want to pursue it because you genuinely enjoy it. Not everything we all enjoy is lucrative, but the pay off is hopefully in the fact that you love what you do. Sometimes, that's more important than the money you make. Waking up every day to go do something you'd be doing without pay is an ideal situation for people. Very few of us ever really find it.

Although I guess with the cost of university these days, you really better hope you can make a buck with whatever you chose to do. All those loans aren't going to pay themselves off, are they.

How ya doing, buddy?

Here's a question: why are you paying for grad school? I thought grad school was something that was done under a scholorship program most of the time. 400k is a shitload of money and I'm guessing that 200k was full school without a scholarship. Presumably you're not one for receiving those? In that case seriously consider what you're getting yourself into, especially in THIS economy.

You may want to really think about it, it's a relief to know that you're still a junior and have time to do that. 600k is on the line.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

No, more than that is on the line. 7-10 years of a career would likely get you what you're putting away for graduate school. So in fact, you're losing out on quite possibly the million dollars that you would have made in addition to a decade of job experience. That is a huge price to pay for a PhD that, it seems at least, isn't going to give you that much right away.

In fact, (at least in the sciences, don't know about Lit) even after you get your PhD, the typical tenure track trajectory these days is to accept a Post-Doc position, which may last you 5+ more years. In these positions you aren't paid more than you would expect right out of college, in the hope that you can be one of the privileged few who eventually ascend to a tenured position.

I don't think that's a commitment I personally could make. The job you end up doing is but one aspect of your life and, sure, you might idolize being a professor. However, not living like a pauper until your mid-30's may very well bring you a lot more enjoyment.

How ya doing, buddy?

Quote:

Well, I am about to invest another 7-10 years as well as 400k dollars (on top of the 200k I paid for undergraduate) just to end up on an *extremely* chancy field. Doesn't that seem a bit outrageous? Shouldn't we prize more than just engineers at this day an age?

Ask most engineers how they feel about their salary compared to lawyers and those business students that joined JP Morgan and are making more than they ever will with less work.

Also, the reason why many science/engineering students are paid during their PhD work is because they're essentially employees of the school. Once you're done with classes, you're doing research work like you'd do at any other company, and, as such, you get paid for it.

Also, if you're seriously thinking about going $600k into debt, I suggest you take a class in math to figure out how long it would take to repay that.

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How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by M.U.G.E.N. Forever

Here's a question: why are you paying for grad school? I thought grad school was something that was done under a scholorship program most of the time. 400k is a shitload of money and I'm guessing that 200k was full school without a scholarship. Presumably you're not one for receiving those? In that case seriously consider what you're getting yourself into, especially in THIS economy.

You may want to really think about it, it's a relief to know that you're still a junior and have time to do that. 600k is on the line.

Yea, I'm curious too.

(The only experience I have is via my sister, who got a full scholarship for her Master's and the university will pay for her doctorates)

Also, fucking kudos to RR for posting a concise mathematical depiction of what you're looking at. (Though fucking $600k? That's uhhh...really? Someone with experience seriously tell me that's wrong.)

I was speaking idiomatically.

Well I'm a senior right now going for my BBA, and by just taking another two years and getting a MBA I would more than double my starting salary, so I say it is definitely worth it for some careers. I'm not sure how useful getting a PhD (and beyond) would be for most careers though.

I would just take a look at the company(s) you want to work for and see what their views are on people having graduate degrees. For instance I know of a few places, which I was initially interested in, that only interviewed people if they had an MBA. I really don't understand this philosophy as I would consider having two years of work experience to be far more valuable than just two extra years of academics! On this same note though, ideally it would be nice to find a job that encourages you to further your education, and possibly will even pay for you to get your masters (or above). This is the route I plan on going, as I can't really afford to get a masters from the school I wish to attend at the moment.

All that being said, depending on what your dream job is there may or may not be any rush to go straight on to your masters...

Also, I've had various teachers at my university encourage me to try and aim for the best graduate school I can reasonably make it in to (or at the very least a different university from which I received my undergraduate degree). If you continue on in the same university you received your bachelors degree from then you will have mostly the same professors teaching you the same stuff over again which will ultimately result in you gaining very little (knowledge-wise) from the degree.

Best of luck with whichever route you decide to go...

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Although I guess with the cost of university these days, you really better hope you can make a buck with whatever you chose to do. All those loans aren't going to pay themselves off, are they.

I don't have any loans to repay for my undergraduate education (which, by the way, Sass, is in the Berkshires. Aren't you from around there?).

But -- my parents have gone through a lot of trouble to get me through it and $200k went into it, period.

Quote:

Here's a question: why are you paying for grad school? I thought grad school was something that was done under a scholorship program most of the time. 400k is a shitload of money and I'm guessing that 200k was full school without a scholarship. Presumably you're not one for receiving those? In that case seriously consider what you're getting yourself into, especially in THIS economy.

You may want to really think about it, it's a relief to know that you're still a junior and have time to do that. 600k is on the line.

Well, I can get scholarships to help me out, but probably will end up in debt for about 100k, plus what I miss of starting a career and that pay. I just threw that figure out there.

My point is, doesn't it seem like there just is too much of a financial sacrifice to become a professor when I am already putting in so many years of my life? I have my parents and younger brother to worry about... And also hopes of having a life at some point.

I am just so thrown off by how badly run almost anything in this world is.

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Originally Posted by Tamburlaine

I don't have any loans to repay for my undergraduate education (which, by the way, Sass, is in the Berkshires. Aren't you from around there?).

Yea, I'm in Westfield. Are you in northern or southern western MA?

Quote:

But -- my parents have gone through a lot of trouble to get me through it and $200k went into it, period.

That's depressing. $200k. That's a large investment with no guaranty of return.

I've always been of the opinion that you can have a life without a Masters in something. Admittedly, people seem to need some kind of degree to function in the real world these days, but it all depends on your priorities.

How ya doing, buddy?

Quote:

My point is, doesn't it seem like there just is too much of a financial sacrifice to become a professor when I am already putting in so many years of my life?

Professors do their job for the love of the work, not for the money it brings. When I finish with my PhD, I can either look into getting a post-doc paying a little more than I'm making now (not much), or go into industry and make closer to $90k. If I am eventually lucky enough to become a tenure-track professor, then I'll be starting around $60k a year. Less than what I could have made with my BS.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

Professors do their job for the love of the work, not for the money it brings. When I finish with my PhD, I can either look into getting a post-doc paying a little more than I'm making now (not much), or go into industry and make closer to $90k. If I am eventually lucky enough to become a tenure-track professor, then I'll be starting around $60k a year. Less than what I could have made with my BS.

Yeah.., my sister is currently in the process of finishing up her PhD in Bio-Chemistry, and she is planning on going on to do a post doc afterward with goals of eventually becoming a professor. It is really strange because before her PhD, while she was getting her masters, she expressed a strong disinterest in teaching in the future. All the sudden though, as she was in the process of getting her PhD at her new school, she changed her mind...

I wouldn't necessarily say professors, especially at the high-level universities (in the science field) aren't making a good income though! There have been several cases I recall where my sister has been required to share a percentage of her grants with the professor, and just about all of their multi-million dollar grants usually include rather sizable personal expense allocations. I think most of these professors at her school are making somewhere around $500,000 (and up) a year...

Most of my professors though stepped down from being high level managers of companies, making in the millions, to about what you said of making ~$60,000 a year. Most are still on the boards of companies however, so they still make several hundred thousand dollars a year. I can tell though that a lot of the ones I've had (especially for my 4000 level classes) really do seem to love teaching.., I wonder if I will ever be that way when I get old(er)...

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I can see some professors making a lot of money if they've got patents or do a lot of consulting on the side, but I doubt most of those professors are making $500,000 a year.

Here's how much the average full professor makes at some top schools (in 100k).
Harvard: 185
Yale: 165
Princeton: 172
MIT: 152
Caltech: 162
Stanford: 174
Cornell: 148.2
Penn State (Main Campus): 125
U of Michigan: 137

So, yeah, top professors at top universities make decent money, but they're not getting salaried at $500k+ unless they're high demand Nobel Prize winners or famous politicians.

(Data from The Chronicle: AAUP Faculty Salary Survey )

I know my own advisor here at Caltech makes around $190k, and he's seen as one of the top people within his field (as well as a member of the National Academy of Sciences and the National Academy of Engineering, which probably help get a pay bump considering they're fairly prestigious things).

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

I can see some professors making a lot of money if they've got patents or do a lot of consulting on the side, but I doubt most of those professors are making $500,000 a year.

Here's how much the average full professor makes at some top schools (in 100k).
Harvard: 185
Yale: 165
Princeton: 172
MIT: 152
Caltech: 162
Stanford: 174
Cornell: 148.2
Penn State (Main Campus): 125
U of Michigan: 137

So, yeah, top professors at top universities make decent money, but they're not getting salaried at $500k+ unless they're high demand Nobel Prize winners or famous politicians.

(Data from The Chronicle: AAUP Faculty Salary Survey )

I know my own advisor here at Caltech makes around $190k, and he's seen as one of the top people within his field (as well as a member of the National Academy of Sciences and the National Academy of Engineering, which probably help get a pay bump considering they're fairly prestigious things).

I'm wondering if those numbers, as well as what your adviser claims, includes the income derived from their grants. For most science fields, or any field really where there is research being done, I believe a large percentage of a professor's income comes from their grants.

Originally Posted by Guest Column: Letting Scientists Off the Leash

... In fact, the university rarely pays the full salary of the professor — depending on the department, the professor must find between 25 percent and 75 percent of his or her salary from outside grants ...

(Professor of bioengineering at Stanford University)

[Here] is an interesting article/blog on this subject if you wish to read it...

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by RacinReaver

Professors do their job for the love of the work, not for the money it brings. When I finish with my PhD, I can either look into getting a post-doc paying a little more than I'm making now (not much), or go into industry and make closer to $90k. If I am eventually lucky enough to become a tenure-track professor, then I'll be starting around $60k a year. Less than what I could have made with my BS.

Obviously, but I still feel like people who are putting in DECADES of training are getting slighted by shitty return to their investment.

Maybe not, maybe just teaching at a high level is return enough.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Quote:

I'm wondering if those numbers, as well as what your adviser claims, includes the income derived from their grants. For most science fields, or any field really where there is research being done, I believe a large percentage of a professor's income comes from their grants.

I know for my advisor it's including stuff he can skim off of grants, as we found out about it when one of the other guys in my group was working on some budget stuff with our secretary and she said that 10% of his salary would be coming from XYZ grant. I don't imagine it necessarily includes the money he's making doing consulting.

Likewise, I also know that salary is extremely variable between departments. Typically, when you're in a department where you could make boatloads in private industry (think medical or business) you'll get really highly paid professors. In science/engineering, you'll be paid pretty well, but probably not as highly as you would in industry. In the humanities...well...you take what you can get.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I suppose you can always write books and/or articles as well when your a professor, and that will probably help your income a little. It is probably much easier to get them published and have them sell well if you have one or more PhDs behind your name. I remember I had this one professor wrote an excessive amount of books, somewhere around thirty I believe...

With that in mind, I think that a lot of professors out there get their PhDs mostly for the respect that comes with them in the academic community, and not just necessarily because they love teaching. I remember one of my best professors, who didn't have a PhD, told me that without a PhD he was considered by colleagues and the academic community as being almost at the bottom despite the fact that he was extremely successful in the business world. Likewise one of the poorest teachers I've had recently had like seven (or some ridiculous number) of degrees, and didn't really seem to have any interest at all in teaching. I think he was using the degrees mostly as a way to boost his creditability/respect in the academic community so he could sell more books (he was the one I mentioned at the start of this post).

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I'm hoping to become a professor later in life, but intend to try and make my fortune first through other means. For this I'm contemplating going to grad school to get a masters in order to specialize my Computer Science degree, in the hopes of getting a better job in the Computational Linguistics field.

School is getting really stale though, and I'm sorely tempted to just see what kind of career I can put together without going through an expensive master's program.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I can't tell if you are being serious...?

Jam it back in, in the dark.