[Multiplatform] Burger King of Fighters XII - Free with large Whopper meal

To settle it, any period of time without Shermie is too long (and Vice and Hinako, come to think of it) :_; Where is the female grappler (don't count Mary)!?
If you want nice long deaths, Goenitz would be more like it.
Let's count 2006 even though it's a spinoff.

This also makes me wonder which will the extra characters this time around. I already found Gai to be strange enough to include.

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Originally Posted by Manny Biggz

Are you talking about the gameplay of 2000? The game where everyone was broken thanks to the striker system?

@summonmaster: Chizuru was in 2003. Not that it matters since everyone seems to hate that game, but it was only 2 games ago.

I meant in terms of presentation and artistic direction. The new SNK just doesn't have the magic that the old team had. The transition from 2000 to 2001 still gives me nightmares.

Hope the music isn't complete crap either. The old KOF and SNK games had the best scores ever.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I read somewhere that Hiroaki is involved in this game as well, although I can't find it anywhere now so take it with a grain of salt. He's a great artist so it'd definitely be good news (he most recently did Advance Wars: Days of Ruin, which has really awesome KoF-ish character art).

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Summonmaster

To settle it, any period of time without Shermie is too long (and Vice and Hinako, come to think of it) :_; Where is the female grappler (don't count Mary)!?
If you want nice long deaths, Goenitz would be more like it.
Let's count 2006 even though it's a spinoff.

This also makes me wonder which will the extra characters this time around. I already found Gai to be strange enough to include.

Fair enough. Shermie is pretty much my favorite grapple character in any 2D fighter. If they bust out another dream match, I hope they put her NGBC incarnation in it. Very fun to play!

Originally Posted by Megalith

I meant in terms of presentation and artistic direction. The new SNK just doesn't have the magic that the old team had. The transition from 2000 to 2001 still gives me nightmares.

Hope the music isn't complete crap either. The old KOF and SNK games had the best scores ever.

Totally agree. KOF '96 (both AST and OST) remains as my favorite VG soundtrack of all time. Thank god they didn't put Falcoon on this though...

I was speaking idiomatically.

I could watch her do this foreverrrr~



What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Megalith

I meant in terms of presentation and artistic direction. The new SNK just doesn't have the magic that the old team had. The transition from 2000 to 2001 still gives me nightmares.

Hope the music isn't complete crap either. The old KOF and SNK games had the best scores ever.

You can't compare 2001 to anything, you can't even mention 2001 on any debate, if you are going to compare transition, compare 2000 to XI, since 2001 and 2002 were made by the whack job eolith, and 2003 is made by SNK Playmore but it was on the standards of Eolith.

People tend to forget that SNK was defunct, and anyone who wished to make games was welcome to it, heck, Yuki (Samurai Zero) mever made a fighting game before, Evoga (rage of the Dragons) was a mexican company that got broke after it, any game from that time shouldn't even be considered as SNK material.

But I agree on the score thing.

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Its nice that the game runs in high resolution, but I hope the animation won't be complete dogshit (like, um, every KOF game ever). SF3 looks good even today, despite running in super low resolution. Even Guilty Gear didn't impress me much, sure its hires, but the animation wasnt anything special.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Fighting games tend to sacrifice animation for the sake of speed. Of course, this isn't that great of a excuse, but it's something.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Manny Biggz

Fair enough. Shermie is pretty much my favorite grapple character in any 2D fighter. If they bust out another dream match, I hope they put her NGBC incarnation in it.

I don't play her myself, but a lot of people say she's pretty awful in NGBC.. not quite the best idea?

@evilboris

The animation quality isn't bad at all, just check the HD trailer. Looks amazing.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

She is meh compared to the rest of the cast, but if she played like that in a KOF game, it would be fun times. This is coming from a Marco player in NGBC too.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Manny Biggz

Fighting games tend to sacrifice animation for the sake of speed. Of course, this isn't that great of a excuse, but it's something.

SF3 was very fast (much faster than what I prefer), and it still had better animation than anything else.

Tone: I did watch it, I wasn't impressed. Looks like every other KOF game ever, just without jaggies.

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Originally Posted by evilboris

SF3 was very fast

No disrespect, but you must live in Bizarro World. Street Fighter 3 by itself or in comparison to other fighters is fairly slow. The only slower fighting game I could think of is maybe Guilty Gear if you banned dashing and running.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by evilboris

SF3 was very fast (much faster than what I prefer), and it still had better animation than anything else.

Tone: I did watch it, I wasn't impressed. Looks like every other KOF game ever, just without jaggies.

Rotor said it well. To the naked eye, it may not be TOO noticeable, but SF3 is a exception to that rule I think. I mean, just do a fierce punch with the majority of the cast in SF3. Follow that up by doing a standing C with the majority of the KOF cast. If you don't notice the difference, I don't know what to tell you.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I don't think the difference matters to most people outside the hardcore crowd, but SF3 WAS slower than some other games, including other SF entries. Frankly I thought the extra-detailed animation was overkill in several cases; it's not like Q needed 20 frames just to slowly sway back and forth. It was pretty clearly a case of Capcom doing that just to show off the new hardware.

FELIPE NO

Better to have and not need than to need and not have in the case of Street Fighter 3.

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I dunno if I'd call SFIII "fast", especially after stuff like Guilty Gear and MvC2 broke the speed limit to the point of ridiculous, but it *did* make you think fast. There is a lot of quick judgment involved in parrying, spacing, and movement in and out of someone's hit range. Not to mention some of the more complicated juggles and combos. It played very smoothly, though, and I'd love it if SNK took a page from Capcom's book and make XII a lot more technical than the previous KoF stuff. I really liked the older KoFs, but its gameplay is one mold I wouldn't mind seeing broken.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

KOF's gameplay is among the best. The only way you would really see this is if you play it in a tournament competition level. That's how it should be though. People who take the time to practice and play the game in that level, deserve to have a understanding far above someone who just plays the game casually. It's like that for every fighting game that matters.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Nall

make XII a lot more technical than the previous KoF stuff.

Exactly what would you change, Nall? I don't mean to put you on blast, I realize this sentiment is frowned upon, but what Manny Biggz said is correct. The question being, do you play competitively? It isn't a question meant to discredit you, I just feel like there's a certain perspective involved. When people talk about how great Street Fighter 3 is, I laugh. Most Street Fighter players, they only play 3 because it was the last game Capcom made from the ground up. Things that made Street Fighter 2 great just don't work anymore on a fundamental level in Street Fighter 3. The game isn't bad, but I think the people who hold it to this god like standard don't quite understand why the game has the reputation it does.

Anyway, I think what I mainly want to address is what I quoted you on... The problem most KoFs face is that the roster has always been constantly changing. Street Fighter and other games have the advantage of dealing with a consistent roster. Yes, you have regulars in every King of Fighters game, but they are constantly being changed along with having new characters constantly being introduced. SNK has the burden of having to make that work, and you'll take note that most of the time, new characters are either really horrible or REALLY good. Vanessa in KoF 2000, Duo Lon in KoF 2003... There's a reason KoF 1998 and KoF 2002 are generally the most played out of most KoF fans. It worked once and then they just applied the same formula.

A lot of what I say has been pulled from greater minds at other forums, but I feel that it bears repeating. We need to forward that knowledge of the game so that people can learn to appreciate and play these games even better. The problem with KoF isn't balance, or any fighting game for that matter. If you want a perfectly balanced fighter, every character has to be exactly the same. That's balance. That's also what we might call "boring." Characters are going to have disadvantages, aren't going to be as good at one thing as another, they'll have advantages in some instances... the main thing you want to have is variety. That's right. Broken characters don't "tip the balance", they destroy VARIETY. What I mean by that is, if you want to win in a game that has a broken character... who are you more than likely going to pick? The character with the stupid good abilities or joe shmoe? Great example, Tekken 4. Namco took a lot of risks with that game... but Jin Kazama owns that competitive field, save for a few people who really excel at other characters.

For what KoF is, the game is fine, though there is the occasional sour note. Exactly what needs to be added on, what needs to be changed? I'm really curious as to what you want to do with the game.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Rotorblade

No disrespect, but you must live in Bizarro World. Street Fighter 3 by itself or in comparison to other fighters is fairly slow. The only slower fighting game I could think of is maybe Guilty Gear if you banned dashing and running.

I only played Third Strike mind you, and yes it was pretty damn fast if I wanted to properly do something like parry -> special -> cancel to super special. Unless I used Ken because then I could mash dp+punch and luck into parry-dragonpunch-shoryureppa combos, but never, ever did I do those on purpose. Like Nall said, speed isn't about how fast you can pull a punch, but how fast you have to think to know where, and how, to make that punch.

MvsC2 was a masher "fast" game so naturally it broke the sound barrier - on the other hand, it was full of bugs and 400 hit combos suddenly didn't take any skill. A successful parry to reverse to super combo in SF3 takes way more skill than a 100 hit ANY combo in MvsC2 imo.

Can't say much about Guilty Gear, I've never played it beyond a few quick fights... it was too extreme to my liking.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by evilboris

I only played Third Strike mind you, and yes it was pretty damn fast if I wanted to properly do something like parry -> special -> cancel to super special. Unless I used Ken because then I could mash dp+punch and luck into parry-dragonpunch-shoryureppa combos, but never, ever did I do those on purpose. Like Nall said, speed isn't about how fast you can pull a punch, but how fast you have to think to know where, and how, to make that punch.

MvsC2 was a masher "fast" game so naturally it broke the sound barrier - on the other hand, it was full of bugs and 400 hit combos suddenly didn't take any skill. A successful parry to reverse to super combo in SF3 takes way more skill than a 100 hit ANY combo in MvsC2 imo.

Can't say much about Guilty Gear, I've never played it beyond a few quick fights... it was too extreme to my liking.

Well, you just did a fine job of discrediting yourself to anyone who really understands these games. I'm not really looking to bash you, but I feel that not pointing these things out will lead to other readers getting the wrong idea about the subject at hand. I'll go into further detail when I get a chance.

I was speaking idiomatically.

For the record, Guilty Gear is fast, but it isn't that fast. It's not at MvC2 level, its just that theres a LOT GOING ON AT ONCE in a guilty gear match. I'd put MvC2, Melty Blood and in certain situations, KOFXI over GG in terms of speed any day.

MVC2 doesn't take more skill than 3S, nor does 3S take more skill than MVC2. Different things need to be learned in every game, just because one seems easier to play doesn't mean you can just mash shit and win against a player that actually knows what they're doing.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Rotorblade

The question being, do you play competitively?

Actually, no, I don't play competitively, so if I'm off-base with some things this'd be the reason. I've followed some tournies, sure, but I understand it's a far cry from actually playing in them so nothing I'm saying should be taken as an expert source. Take this as sort of a "casual" player's perspective.

First, I love KoF. As a matter of fact, I've played just about every game in the series from start to finish just so I could see all those cool endings and fight those insane last bosses first hand. If any game has ever come close to beating SFII at it's game, it would be any of the KoFs in their hey-day. One issue I had with gameplay, though, was a lack of fluidness to some of the moves. Sometimes attacks felt stiff, while others seemed to come out slower than seemingly intended. What the video for KoFXII shows me is that several moves might be sped up or adjusted for a different feel or response. It's just an aesthetic thing, but when you compare moves like Benimaru's spiral kick (^D+K) to Dhalsim's head screw in SF, Beni's seems slower in both start-up and execution, and has less control. I know, I know, they're two different games running on different engines, but Dhalsim's just seems more... responsive. I'm not talking Guilty Gear levels of speed and fluidity, but I've always been more of a fan of how Capcom handled their game physics (is that the right word? I'm not sure what jargon to use without sounding like a doofus, if it isn't already too late for that). To put it another way, compare Kyo's repeating punches (QCF+P x3) in KoF 2002/03 to the same move in Capcom Vs. SNK 2. The Capcom version seems to respond much better to player input, and is generally easier to perform, while the KoF version, while fitting within the constraints of that game, is somewhat stiffer.

I know you're not belittling me or anything, but If I'm wrong here don't hesitate to point it out. I'm not trying to sound like I'm bashing the gameplay of KoF entirely, but I think and engine change would do the series some good. The new KoF has me excited that some of these things are going to change, so I'm looking forward to it.

Quote:

Yes, you have regulars in every King of Fighters game, but they are constantly being changed along with having new characters constantly being introduced. SNK has the burden of having to make that work, and you'll take note that most of the time, new characters are either really horrible or REALLY good.

Ah, you're right. I admire SNK for working in all these awesome characters and making them at least somewhat competitive in their own right, all while working on ten-year-old hardware back in the NeoGeo days. It's a kind of innovation that you can't help but appreciate. Things like inbalance are also unavoidable, especially on a competitive level, so no one should hold a developer against that.

If you want real balance, play WarCraft II, same units on either side, they just look different.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Nall

Actually, no, I don't play competitively, so if I'm off-base with some things this'd be the reason. I've followed some tournies, sure, but I understand it's a far cry from actually playing in them so nothing I'm saying should be taken as an expert source. Take this as sort of a "casual" player's perspective.

First, I love KoF. As a matter of fact, I've played just about every game in the series from start to finish just so I could see all those cool endings and fight those insane last bosses first hand. If any game has ever come close to beating SFII at it's game, it would be any of the KoFs in their hey-day. One issue I had with gameplay, though, was a lack of fluidness to some of the moves. Sometimes attacks felt stiff, while others seemed to come out slower than seemingly intended. What the video for KoFXII shows me is that several moves might be sped up or adjusted for a different feel or response. It's just an aesthetic thing, but when you compare moves like Benimaru's spiral kick (^D+K) to Dhalsim's head screw in SF, Beni's seems slower in both start-up and execution, and has less control. I know, I know, they're two different games running on different engines, but Dhalsim's just seems more... responsive. I'm not talking Guilty Gear levels of speed and fluidity, but I've always been more of a fan of how Capcom handled their game physics (is that the right word? I'm not sure what jargon to use without sounding like a doofus, if it isn't already too late for that). To put it another way, compare Kyo's repeating punches (QCF+P x3) in KoF 2002/03 to the same move in Capcom Vs. SNK 2. The Capcom version seems to respond much better to player input, and is generally easier to perform, while the KoF version, while fitting within the constraints of that game, is somewhat stiffer.

I know you're not belittling me or anything, but If I'm wrong here don't hesitate to point it out. I'm not trying to sound like I'm bashing the gameplay of KoF entirely, but I think and engine change would do the series some good. The new KoF has me excited that some of these things are going to change, so I'm looking forward to it.

As Capcom games have progressed, Capcom has gone out of their way to make moves progressively easier to perform. Buffering, negative edge, easing the allowed frames for input... KoF has its own distinct feel in comparison to Capcom games because Capcom allows for certain things that KoF doesn't. Moreover, the animation in CVS2 has the benefit of being slightly more fluid, so there's another reason. A Dragon Punch in Street Fighter 3 is a lot less demanding than a Dragon Punch in Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo. Fact of life there, playing both games gives you an idea for the feel of why... knowing how Capcom dished out and set the play systems is where you get the complete truth of "why" that is.

Understanding the systems, why things are the way they are... it's a whole different ball game, and much more intensive than the "theory fighting" that most people do on message boards. I've been there, and I can admit now, I don't know all the whys but I can at least spot someone who doesn't and step in.

Benimaru isn't going to have the same properties as Dhalsim as far as their respective aerial attacks are concerned because they're in different games. Games that are fundamentally different in areas. KoF has a very offensive swing to it, as does Guilty Gear... I tend to feel Street Fighter highlights a stronger sense of strategy and space controlling. I'm not exactly an expert at fighting games either, but I've learned a lot more playing them with other human beings with the intent to win than just playing them with people who don't know what they're doing.

http://www.ggpo.net <-- Your best friend.

Ahem, anyway, endorsement over! I like how KoF feels in comparison to CVS2 as a personal preference thing. Mostly because I like the pace because it's more familiar to me, though CVS2 can be just as intense, it's really just a preference for "feel." The more you play a game, the better you get, the better able you are to tell what is legitimately irritating and what isn't.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Rotorblade

Understanding the systems, why things are the way they are... it's a whole different ball game, and much more intensive than the "theory fighting" that most people do on message boards. I've been there, and I can admit now, I don't know all the whys but I can at least spot someone who doesn't and step in.

This is very true. It's also a big problem amongst casual players in general. I hear it in Tekken all the time.

- Them: "Why did that jab go right through Marduk's face while he did that move!? That's bullshit!"

Me: "No, that's a high crush."

- Them: "Why do I keep getting hit with that when I try to get up!?"

Me: "Because you keep trying to get up in the same way. It's called Okizeme."

- Them: "Why did that slow ass move beat out my jab/throw!?"

Me: "Because I had frame advantage."

- Them: "How do you keep breaking those throws? Are you looking at my fingers!?" <---- LOL

Me: "I'm looking at your character's arms. Unless you're King..."

- Them: "Why do you keep doing that stupid electric uppercut? You cheesy fag!"

Me: "Shut the fuck up, scrub!"



I was once like that. Then Tekken 5 came out, and I saw the light. I learned the game, and several other fighting games, thanks to my good/bad experiences with this game, in the arcades. What's my point? Simply, be careful when you try to talk about "technical" aspects of a game you actually know nothing about.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I think the problem is kind of two fold. Like any interest, hardcore players aren't always represented by the best of people. That and there are people who just don't understand that losing is very much a part of competing, as they peel back the layers to a game and come to understand it, questions arise.

"Is this worth my time?"

"Do I really like this game as much as I used to, now that I see how it's played?"

"Is it even possible for me to be capable of playing beyond where I'm at now?"

A lot of players answer "no." I think we'd have a lot more "Yes" answers if the methods behind these games were made more accessible, more transparent. Knowing how to play the game would help keep players who have interest going and striving to be better.

Anyway... King of Fighters XII is pretty, yes... but I'm really doubtful as to whether or not it'll snag new and dedicated players that aren't already fighting game fans. Guilty Gear X looked absolutely stunning for its time... that isn't exactly a giant hit here in the states. Moreover, the whole understanding the game is just a testament to how much of a niche market fighting games are. They require dedication, require practice, research, constant dedication... but at the end of the day, they're all video games and some people just don't have that kind of desire or interest. Understandable.

Still, I think that there's a long way to go in realizing that there's more to a fighting game than the aesthetics. And there's more to the "experience" than just the flashy stuff surrounding the game.

There's nowhere I can't reach.