Are RPG's getting worse every 5 years? (List your top 10 RPG's ever to help!)

Originally Posted by Lord Jaroh

My main reasoning behind it is that it seems that Console RPGs seem to be ever-increasing towards the style of "playing a book" rather than actually having an involving playstyle. Lately it seems that the genre revolves around the story more than character development, and choices from the player as well as freedom within the story are becoming very limited. My main concern is that if I wanted a book, I would read a book, which does it much better than a game does. Instead I want a game, that not only has good story and such, but the freedom to have fun within the game.

Exactly. That's why I consider gameplay in an RPG my most important aspect while I consider storyline about 3rd. (Char development is 2nd). I care way more about the actual gameplay.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

People have been playing books for decades. They're called choose your own adventure. This is what RPGs are lacking. Choice.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Quote:

Posted by Lord Jaroh
BTW, I have been truly "in the genre" since Final Fantasy I on the Nintendo, so I do have a lot of experience playing these games to judge for myself what I like, and what I don't like.

Don't take him too personally. Utopia has a huge elitist streak. His preference in RPGs is directly proportional to how obscure and inaccessible a game is.

The biggest problem I see in RPGs these days is that designers seem to think they have to decide between a linear storyline with no room for player input, or a game that allows for player choice but contains a barebones storyline at best. This is simply not true, as demonstrated by the games that are frequently at the top of people's lists, like Torment and KOTR.

Unfortunately, the middle ground requires work on the part of developers. If not branching storylines, you at least need branching quest lines and quest solutions. Planescape: Torment was as linear as they come storywise, but there was a hell of a lot of room for personal involvement, not only from how you built your character, but what interim quests were available and how you actually approached them.

Most current RPGs don't even give you any control over how your character develops. There's variety to be had simply in deciding to play through the game as a thief instead of a wizard, but you don't even get that anymore. The sphere system in FFX was largely irrelevant, since most of the cast was pretty well set on very specific paths, and the one wild card - Kimahri - usually wound up gimped unless you had a very specific goal in mind.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Quote:

The biggest problem I see in RPGs these days is that designers seem to think they have to decide between a linear storyline with no room for player input, or a game that allows for player choice but contains a barebones storyline at best.

Non-linear gameworlds don't necessarily have to possess bareboned storylines, so much as they can possess several independant and intertwining storylines to be activated as the player comes across them.

Take Fallout for instance. Yes, there was an overriding need to find the water chip, but you don't have to settle the dispute between Killian and Gizmo in order to find it. Yet, how the player settles things in Junktown affects his overall reputation in the gameworld, how NPCs react to him, and how the scenario for Junktown plays out in the endgame due to the player character's actions.

The difference in game design is whether or not designers want the quest to be the focus of the game, or if they want the experience to be the focus. Not to say, of course, that focusing on an overarching narrative is necessarily a bad thing, but if the player has no input in its outcome, then what's the point of even playing? What's the point in making a game?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I've said on here many times that I think RPGs are getting worse. That combined me getting bored with the repetitiveness of them. How about some new original ideas and characters? The badass characters are slowly fading. I miss the days of Kain, Cecil, Shadow, etc.

1. Final Fantasy VII
2. Suikoden 2
3. Suikoden
4. Chrono Trigger
5. Dragon Force
6. Panzer Dragoon Saga
7. Final Fantasy IV
8. Final Fantasy VI
9. The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind
10. The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

There are a lot of games I could add as honorable mentions, like the Wild Arms 1 and 2, Final Fantasy Tactics/8/9/10, Vandal Hearts, and just so much more. But the majority of my favorite RPGs are from the pre-next gen era. I do think they are getting worse.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by DragoonKain

I've said on here many times that I think RPGs are getting worse. That combined me getting bored with the repetitiveness of them. How about some new original ideas and characters? The badass characters are slowly fading.

2. Suikoden 2
3. Suikoden

All signs in this post point to you needing a hearty dose of Suikoden V medicine.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by GoldfishX

All signs in this post point to you needing a hearty dose of Suikoden V medicine.

And Shadow Hearts I/II for his bad-ass character desire.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I own all 3 of those games. I liked SH a lot, but I give SH2 and Suikoden V both meh's.

I never finished SH2 and Suikoden V though. Got too bored, I just can't finish them.

Which is why I said I think half of it is me, and half of it are the games. I can't finish RPGs not named The Elder Scrolls anymore. I did beat Star Ocean 3 and Tales of Symphonia though. But the last 5 RPGs I bought, I can't finish and get incredibly bored of them.

Suikoden V and Shadow Hearts 2, being 2 of those games. Kingdom Hearts 2 being another one of them. I thought SH2 ruined Yuri with his girly voice, and I couldn't take the random battles anymore.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Just curious: How far into Suiko V did you play? S5 definitely takes its' sweet time getting jump-started, I can vouch for, but it ended up improving on 2 in so many ways I thought...the warfare battles, more ways to prepare your party (formations, skills) , more plot twists, the "next-gen" treatment (cutscenes, voice acting), more interesting characters (IMO, of course) and all of the good things the series is known for. I'm just a tad surprised you had Suikoden 2 and 1 at #2 and #3 respectively and didn't think much of it...I put 54 hours into a "bad" run of it and I'm about 10 hours into a "good" run now. It's actually rekindled my own RPG "spirit".

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I think I was 6 hours into Suikoden V. Yea, I know, not a lot, but I'm not patient when it comes to stuff like games. I can't drag through hours upon hours of boredom. I just usually shut it off, and pop in another game.

The last game I beat that I hated was Final Fantasy X-2. I hated that game and everything about it pretty much, and I dragged myself through it hoping it would get better, but it didn't.

I'll eventually get around to beating Suikoden V, and even IV which I also own and couldn't beat, but I'm a tad angry that Pesmerga(my favorite Suikoden character of the series) isn't in one since 2.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by DragoonKain

I think I was 6 hours into Suikoden V. Yea, I know, not a lot, but I'm not patient when it comes to stuff like games. I can't drag through hours upon hours of boredom. I just usually shut it off, and pop in another game.

The last game I beat that I hated was Final Fantasy X-2. I hated that game and everything about it pretty much, and I dragged myself through it hoping it would get better, but it didn't.

I'll eventually get around to beating Suikoden V, and even IV which I also own and couldn't beat, but I'm a tad angry that Pesmerga(my favorite Suikoden character of the series) isn't in one since 2.

Just a heads up...You're probably well into what is just a playable opening. Get past the stupid Sacred Games stuff (which go on for WAY too long), click past the next two or three groups of scenes and wait for the good stuff to unfold (sort of like how S2 gets better once you get away from Victor's Fort). And I thought Tri-Ace's "playable openings" were insanely long...

I personally didn't like Suiko IV all that much (4-man parties...WHY!? And the boat thing...) and I haven't paid it much attention. I was psyched for V just as a "return to greatness" deal. Once I get the good ending on V, I might go back to it, since it's supposed to at least be pretty short (20-25 hours).

But I can see what you mean...Any game in the past I've truly hated didn't make it past the 20 hour mark (most I stopped well before that). I have a copy of Atelier Iris: Eternal Mana and I've put 20 hours on it over the past year...It's fun, but I rarely have the motivation to play. And then there's Star Ocean 3, which I waited years for and I've touched for a grand total of 7 hours since it came out (not a fan of this version of the battle system).

I was speaking idiomatically.

Star Ocean 3 started out slow for me too, but I really loved it. It was one of my favorite games in the last 5 years. Good plot twists, and I loved the battle system. It had it's flaws, but I'm so glad I played through it.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Here's my top ten though they are not really in any type of order.

1. Secret of Mana
2. Final Fantasy 7
3. Final Fantasy 9
4. Star Ocean: The Second Story
5. Star Ocean: Till The End of Time
6. Final Fantasy X-2
7. Tales of Destiny
8. Final Fantasy 4
9. Zelda Minish Cap
10. Mario RPG

I think for the most part, you enjoy the games you played when you were younger more becuase you didn't realize at the time that no RPG is really as deep as it wants you to think it is. I'd much rather have fun playing a game like Star Ocean or FF X-2 than be bogged down by the boredom of a game that takes itself too seriously like Xenogears/saga.

FELIPE NO

I have to say RPGs aren't getting worse; I have high hopes for games like FFXII, Dragon Age, Mass Effect...

But, you sound like you want an average; and unfortantely I haven't played tons of the non-big name games throughout the years.

But if I were to just choose one time period from my list [below] I'd choose late 90s to early 00s as a prime time for many good rpgs.

Coming off the heels of legends like FF3, SoM, Chrono Trigger;
FF7, FF8, FFT, Baldur's Gate Saga 1,2 , Lunar, Saga Frontier 2, Morrowind, etcc
I probably spent more time with these than any of the others. [except Ultima 6,7,8]


Here is a short list that helped me figure it out:
Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, early Ultimas [middle 80s]
Crystalis, Final Fantasy [late 80s]
Final Fantasy 2 (ff4), Ultima 7, Lufia, [early 90s]
Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, Shining Force 2 [middle 90s]
Final Fantasy Tactics, Daggerfall, Final Fantasy 7,8 [late 90s]
Baldur's Gate 2, Morrowind, Final Fantasy X [early 00s]
Xenosaga, Digital Devil Saga, Shadow Hearts 2, Disgaea [middle 00s]
FFXII is coming...

Note to self:
Nope I wouldn't say games are getting worse at all. And as for an average, it would simply end up a numbers game; [look up the most popular games from everyones lists, find which ones show up in the shortest amount of time; and most (assign some kind of number value system); and/or maybe figure out which years had the greatest amount of RPG sales, in proportion to the amount of gamers buying], etc etc... sounds like school work

Most amazing jew boots

Quote:

Posted by DragoonKain
The badass characters are slowly fading. I miss the days of Kain, Cecil, Shadow, etc.

You said something interesting there. Kain, Cecil, and Shadow are indeed bad ass characters, but notice how they're superficially no different than pretend-badass characters like Cloud, Sephiroth, or Amarant. Cecil and Kain have their fair share of angst, and Shadow is just as bad as any other over-the-top-look-how-awesome-and-cool-I-am character.

The difference? They don't wallow in it. Cecil is forced pretty quickly to get over himself, unlike Squall or Fei who spend the entire game being unlikable emo bitches. Kain has brief angsty moments, but doesn't dwell on it, and saves the weepy stuff for non-critical moments. Sorry I tried to kill you and take your woman, Cecil, but right now it's more important that I use Jump on this boss. And Shadow? He's professional. He doesn't get pretentious about his motives or badass ninja skillz, he just does the job he's paid to do.

Square's writers lately have taken to copying the form, but not the function of the badass archetypes. That's why you end up with guys like Cloud who spend all their time being emo instead of picking their ass up, turning off the Robert Smith, and getting out there to kick some proper ass.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Monkey King

The difference? They don't wallow in it. Cecil is forced pretty quickly to get over himself, unlike Squall or Fei who spend the entire game being unlikable emo bitches.

Good point. I always compare that type to Cyan. Cyan lost just as much if not more than Cloud but does he get caught up in some angsty revenge quest for the duration of the game? I think not. He experiences the self-loathing and such, but he tends to handle things in a more mature way, and he doesn't treat others like garbage just because "my suffering is greater than yours and you could never understand".

There's nowhere I can't reach.

personally I think we all love RPGs from whatever period our first few were from. I love teh Super Mario RPG era because that was my first RPG.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Tortalius

personally I think we all love RPGs from whatever period our first few were from. I love teh Super Mario RPG era because that was my first RPG.

I tend to agree. And new RPGs also have to compete with a time when the entire genre was new and exciting. It's simply impossible to recapture the experience of playing your first few good RPGs.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

I love Super Mario RPG because I think it's a great game in any era.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Cetra

I tend to agree. And new RPGs also have to compete with a time when the entire genre was new and exciting. It's simply impossible to recapture the experience of playing your first few good RPGs.

I agree with that somewhat...The catch being, the ones that do successfully compete with the nostalgic impulses wind up becoming legends in the player's minds as well. One reason I'm in love with Suikoden V (and the series in general) is there's so much more (well-done) character interaction, plot twists (including the many "holy shit" moments) and gameplay options than even the best SNES RPG's. Likewise, Valkyrie Profile...Completely original battle system when it came out and I'll take that over good old CT or FF6's gameplay anytime. And also, strat RPG's are new for a lot of people, so games like Fire Emblem and the Nippon Ichi titles have (almost) a clean slate for people new to that style of play.

Heh, I played the hell out of FFIV, FFVI, CT and Mario RPG back in the day and I'll always look to them as great examples of what got me into RPG's. But at the end of the day, it's Suiko V and II, VP, Star Ocean 2 and La Pucelle claiming my top five spots (not in that order, but still).

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by GoldfishX

One reason I'm in love with Suikoden V (and the series in general) is there's so much more (well-done) character interaction, plot twists (including the many "holy shit" moments) and gameplay options than even the best SNES RPG's.

I wonder if Suikoden V can somehow turn out to be better than Suikoden II. I'm six hours in.

I'm sure you already know how I agree that Valkyrie Profile and Star Ocean 2 are great games. However, the somewhat rudimentary gameplay of Suikoden has always been serviceable to the story, which means that it'll never be able to impress me very much by itself.

The greatest thing about Suikoden for me has been the soundtrack of the original game.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Megavolt

I wonder if Suikoden V can somehow turn out to be better than Suikoden II. I'm six hours in.

I'm sure you already know how I agree that Valkyrie Profile and Star Ocean 2 are great games. However, the somewhat rudimentary gameplay of Suikoden has always been serviceable to the story, which means that it'll never be able to impress me very much by itself.

Just get past the playable opening and you'll see...:biggrin:

I generally agree on the main gameplay (unless you count finding characters as being a large part of the gameplay), but the large-scale battles stole the show for me this time around. The normal battles are also far more in-depth this time around, with the addition of formations and skills (not to mention the impressive number of party choices the series always has).

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Monkey King

You said something interesting there. Kain, Cecil, and Shadow are indeed bad ass characters, but notice how they're superficially no different than pretend-badass characters like Cloud, Sephiroth, or Amarant. Cecil and Kain have their fair share of angst, and Shadow is just as bad as any other over-the-top-look-how-awesome-and-cool-I-am character.

The difference? They don't wallow in it. Cecil is forced pretty quickly to get over himself, unlike Squall or Fei who spend the entire game being unlikable emo bitches. Kain has brief angsty moments, but doesn't dwell on it, and saves the weepy stuff for non-critical moments. Sorry I tried to kill you and take your woman, Cecil, but right now it's more important that I use Jump on this boss. And Shadow? He's professional. He doesn't get pretentious about his motives or badass ninja skillz, he just does the job he's paid to do.

Square's writers lately have taken to copying the form, but not the function of the badass archetypes. That's why you end up with guys like Cloud who spend all their time being emo instead of picking their ass up, turning off the Robert Smith, and getting out there to kick some proper ass.

I'm not talking just personality, but appearance too. To me, to be completely badass you need both personality AND appearance. You can have the most badass personality ever, but if you look like Tidus, then I'm sorry, you aren't a badass.

Shadow, Kain, and Cecil had both IMO.

But lately, Square has had the characters look like every day people. Nothing unique about the appearance, which to me is important. Would it hurt to have the main character dress in a nice dark suit of armor or cloak with a cool looking helmet or mask? Why do they have to be regular looking people?

I mean, even Cloud was technically normal looking, but he had the spikey hair, the badass sword, and some cool armor on. Sephiroth had the silver hair, the cool clothes, and the masamune. Why can't Square RPGs today have any unique cool characters?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by GoldfishX

Just get past the playable opening and you'll see...:biggrin:

I guess I'm pretty close to things opening up more then. I'm up to the final match of the Sacred Games. (actually, I got past it, but I didn't like Belcoot losing; does the possibility hinge on what you tell Marina that night?) I'll play more of it tonight.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Megavolt

I guess I'm pretty close to things opening up more then. I'm up to the final match of the Sacred Games. (actually, I got past it, but I didn't like Belcoot losing; does the possibility hinge on what you tell Marina that night?) I'll play more of it tonight.

No, it's all scripted. There's no way Belcoot can win.

I'd say you have about 1 1/2-2 hours worth of material to get through from there before things pick up (more characters to introduce, plus Raftfleet...THEN it gets fun), though pay attention to what you're told at the east palace...It'll help you understand a cool plot twist later on. You'll know it when it gets good...It's anything but subtle.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.