The Immigration Protests

It's all part of civil disobedience.

Yes, this is a huge grey area, because legally they're not granted any rights by our government. Then again, why are we comitting billions upon billions of dollars to military campaigns in countries half-way around the world under the guise of liberation and spreading democracy? Wouldn't it be easier to open our borders, invite populations of these people in, create an economic backflow to their homelands and create social change through flow of capital?

I guess why I feel so strongly about immigration issues is that eventually, I'd like to see a world without borders or totalitarian governments. Ultimately, to me, the root of most of the global problems we face today are a direct result of the oligarchy's (meaning world leaders and their constituencies') greed and lust for power. Their willingness to kill and subjugate others for their own gain, but they make the laws, so they make these practices "legal".

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Devo

I don't see how saying "it's wrong because it's illegal" gets you anywhere. Unless of course you actually explain why it should stay illegal or why it's illegal to begin with.

I wasn't aware that something as basic as that required any more explanation. Umm...its illegal because there are laws defining it as illegal? Shit, I don't know.

Quote:

Then you post links/quotes which Duo clearly refutes. That's providing false information.

I've yet to see this. Thats a factual study done by a real-life institute. Unless for some reason you can find proof that the study was faked/biased, I see no reason to believe its false information.

This is the only refute I can possibly find after my first post in here, and I can hardly call this a challenge:

Quote:

I've found sources on USATODAY, The New York times and BBCWorld that site sources claiming a $10~$30 billion NET GAIN. NET not Gross. This is including the costs of providing medical care, education and other public services versus the drop in labor costs, leading to increased profit margins for publically traded corporations and small-businesses, as well as maintaining high-availability and low-cost of commodities.

In retrospect, I gave a link to my source.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by DarkLink2135

I wasn't aware that something as basic as that required any more explanation. Umm...its illegal because there are laws defining it as illegal? Shit, I don't know.

Your reading comprehension is questionable at best. She is suggesting that instead of taking a law at face value, simply because it is in place, you instead analyze the law, why it is in place, and if it is necessary in contemporary society.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by russ

Your reading comprehension is questionable at best. She is suggesting that instead of taking a law at face value, simply because it is in place, you instead analyze the law, why it is in place, and if it is necessary in contemporary society.

That's already been gone over several times in this thread. I see no need to repeat what other people have already said, or indeed, what I have already said in earlier posts. Apparantly some people don't understand something until its been beat into them through repetition.

Immigration quotas are in place to help stablize our economy. You can't possibly expect the US economy to handle a massive influx of immigrants all at once. It's necessary to keep documentation on US citizens & residents for obvious reasons.

The law is in place, and it is necessary. If the law needs to be changed because you don't feel it is right, then do it through legal means. But don't be surprised when the majority thinks otherwise. If it is clearly unconstitutional as it was with the civil rights movement, then perhaps breaking the law is called for to make a change. I can't find any place on the US Constitution that would even begin to give provisions for "illegal" immigration.

FELIPE NO

See, the main downfall with regulating immigration is the same as with anti-drug laws: enforcement. Yeah, they catch a few, but it's a small percentage compared to the number that make it through.

It would cost federal, state and municipal governments much more money to commit enough bodies and resources to haulting illegal immigration than it would be to simply let it happen.

Furthermore, if we were to attempt to deport every illegal immigrant living in the United States currently, it'd have every government law-enforcement agent, soldier, guardsman, social worker working 'round the clock for god only knows how long. Then, you'd have to figure the costs of physically deporting them. What're you going to do, load them on rafts and shove them out into the middle of the Pacific, the Atlantic, the Mexican Gulf? Throw them over "the fence"? That's something on the order of 22 million people.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

See, the main downfall with regulating immigration is the same as with anti-drug laws: enforcement. Yeah, they catch a few, but it's a small percentage compared to the number that make it through.

A fence/wall really wouldn't cost that much. And it WOULD help stem the flow.

Quote:

It would cost federal, state and municipal governments much more money to commit enough bodies and resources to haulting illegal immigration than it would be to simply let it happen.

Why? They got here on their own, they can figure out how to get back on their own. Seeing as they have jobs here and have gotten a bit of cash, I don't see why they can't pay for their OWN transportation back. The enforcement? Yeah, I'm pretty sure that would have an initial cost that might look a bit ugly. It wouldn't take long for the benefits to show up. Well, at least according the FAIR study I linked to earlier.

Quote:

Furthermore, if we were to attempt to deport every illegal immigrant living in the United States currently, it'd have every government law-enforcement agent, soldier, guardsman, social worker working 'round the clock for god only knows how long. Then, you'd have to figure the costs of physically deporting them. What're you going to do, load them on rafts and shove them out into the middle of the Pacific, the Atlantic, the Mexican Gulf? Throw them over "the fence"? That's something on the order of 22 million people.

You obviously can't do something like this all at once. And I'm not denying the fact that you obviously couldn't boot every illegal immigrant out. With 11 million people (22?) thats literally impossible. But you have to start somewhere. And it might take time. Nothing can be fixed instantly.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not saying that there is any chance in the world that we could fix this problem 100%. That's way too optimistic and unrealistic. In today's world though, fixing a problem partway is an amazing accomplishment in and of itself, and it will show some benefits.

Back with what you posted earlier: Those stats seemed more to focus on how "little" illegal immigrants are draining...but the point is, that collectively, that is a drain that doesn't need to exist. And I'll admit, its far less than what I was imagining.

If illegals are kicked out, those jobs WILL be filled. There are a lot of people who are willing to work minimum wage jobs. And, as we are moving towards a more service-oriented economy, a lot of those jobs are disappearing regardless. Would I pick lettuce all summer for minumum wage? Sure, if I couldn't find anything better. It's a job, its outside & its manual labor, which despite what you might think, I really enjoy . I'm not sure why I'm going to college and getting a degree thats going to get me a desk job, lol. Where I live, a popular job during the summer is detassling corn, which is an absolutely miserable job. Doesn't pay very much over minimum wage, and there's always people to fill every spot available. I've never done it because I'm lucky enough to have grandparents to hire me for farmwork every summer . That doesn't involve detassling corn =/.

I guess my point in saying that is that yes, even miserable jobs like picking lettuce would be filled. You might have to pay a few extra cents for your lettuce being that illegal immigrants working for cash that amounts to less than minimum wage were the ones doing the picking, but I don't think thats really a terrible cost to pay.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I forget where, but I had read that the illegal immigrant population was rapidly approaching 22 million, nationwide, I think 11 million is the number of illegals in the workforce at any given time. Something on the order of half-a-million new immigrants arrive each year. You figure a good percentage of those are illegal, and multiply that by like 20 years and it figures.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

I forget where, but I had read that the illegal immigrant population was rapidly approaching 22 million, nationwide, I think 11 million is the number of illegals in the workforce at any given time. Something on the order of half-a-million new immigrants arrive each year. You figure a good percentage of those are illegal, and multiply that by like 20 years and it figures.

Aight, thats where I heard the 11 million then. 22 sounded familiar when you said it, so yeah, its probably the total illegal immigrant population .

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Darklink2135

They've broken the law, plain and simple, get them the fuck out of here.

So this is an issue that money/economy doesn't really factor into right? I mean, it's all about security and law, cost of enforcement be damned right?

Originally Posted by DarkLink2135

I'm sorry, but you appear to have a VERY poor understanding of economics.

http://www.cairco.org/econ/econ.html

Oh, I mean, it's about economics. And since CAIR, a site which claims that immigrants in general are a considerable drain on the economy*, says so, then on money grounds, we should kick out the illegal immigrants.

Originally Posted by Darklink2135

Umm...its illegal because there are laws defining it as illegal? Shit, I don't know.

... Um.. Nevermind. It seems this wasn't given any thought, instead a position was taken, and any and all excuses to back up the arbitrary position just because.

Seriously though, from an economic viewpoint, there doesn't seem to be a way to stop illegal immigration in a cost effective manner. The cost of enforcement long term (nevermind short term) seems very likely to be more than the savings which may be possible by kicking out/keeping out illegals.

From a security standpoint, you support the notion of spending a massive, ever growing amount of money on systems that are likely to have a marginal effect on the security of the nation? I would put money on the prediction that it would likely cost far more money than it is worth from either a security or an economic standpoint, to escalate security enough to keep out most/all illegal immigrants.

Is it really worth turning on an endless spigot of money, pooring money into perceived border security and deportation, just for peace of mind?


*If legal immigrants cost however many millions/billions a year, and do not offer a benifit to the country, then why are they allowed in at all? I mean, how does one justify legal immigration if all it doesn't offer any net financial gain? Um, charity?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

I would like to cee the world u Describe DUO.
Too bad man will exterminate himself and the planet before that ever happens. It is nature to be greedy.
How long has Greed been a issue on this planet?

I was speaking idiomatically.

For a very long time.

Then again, I refuse to believe there aren't a huge number of other people that feel the sameway I do.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Duo, with all due respect, if everything goes according to what you said, the world will be a mess. Let me explain, you were saying illegal immigrants is like illegal drugs, you could catch a few, but the majority still runs free, so instead of catching them we should just let them do whatever they want? I mean, com'on, traffic violation happens in the same manner, so we should not catch them? Same thing go witih murder, robbery, etc., so we should just let them happen, not even try to prevent them from happening or stop them from doing it?
That kind of lawless, senseless world must be perfect for you, but heck, don't let the rest of us be in your world.

FELIPE NO

See, that's the thing, you're equating actions that have extremely well documented results to ones that are not so black and white; ones that have a huge number of variables. Speeding, for example, is dangerous because human reaction times, the sheer chaotic nature of traffic movements and so forth directly contribute to bad results. Sure, it doesn't happen everytime you speed, but if you speed enough, something WILL happen.

Also, murder actually INFRINGES upon another's rights and sovereignty as a human, and it causes DIRECT harm. Namely, DEATH. Robbery is much the same. All VIOLENT CRIMES, in fact.

Drugs and immigration on the other hand, are a COMPLETELY different story. Someone can, (and MANY people do) use drugs and not harm anyone else around them, and function adeptly within a society. Much like MANY MANY people drink alcohol and do not cause harm to others and still function nominally within society. However, there are others who do not, this is where DUI/DWIs come into play, drug/alcohol related incidences, abuse and violence.

Samething with immigration, yes there are a FEW among MILLIONS who do not contribute to the society, but why would someone struggle and travel thousands of miles from everything they know NOT to pursue opportunity? IT makes little sense.

Basically, I'm saying you're creating a huge logical fallacy (i.e. slippery slope) by comparing drug use and immigration to violent crimes, because the two are NOT analogous outside of the fact that there are laws governing these actions.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Drugs and immigration on the other hand, are a COMPLETELY different story. Someone can, (and MANY people do) use drugs and not harm anyone else around them, and function adeptly within a society.

Putting aside the high school arguement that "the reason drugs are illegal is because the government can't regulate them!", you also have to realize you can't lump together drugs as, well, drugs. Someone who smokes pot isn't going to harm someone - but what about a meth or crack addict? Unless you want to justify robbery and murder as "functioning adeptly within society".

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Much like MANY MANY people drink alcohol and do not cause harm to others and still function nominally within society. However, there are others who do not, this is where DUI/DWIs come into play, drug/alcohol related incidences, abuse and violence.

Alcohol is more or less based on the potency of the product. If you drink a lot, you'll get drunk. However, drugs have a ton of different chemical reactions on the human body. Pot doesn't affect you like PCP, Ketamine or coke.

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Samething with immigration, yes there are a FEW among MILLIONS who do not contribute to the society, but why would someone struggle and travel thousands of miles from everything they know NOT to pursue opportunity? IT makes little sense.

That doesn't give them the right to break the law. They're coming into our country illegally - and they know it's illegal, yet they do it anyway.

Heres a good way to fix the immigration situation - if they want to come here illegally, round them up and enlist them for a 5 year term overseas. Educated them, train them and then turn them loose in Iraq for a tour or two. When they come back, they're citizens.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by LeHah

Heres a good way to fix the immigration situation - if they want to come here illegally, round them up and enlist them for a 5 year term overseas. Educated them, train them and then turn them loose in Iraq for a tour or two. When they come back, they're citizens.

Now there is something I can agree with. A sane view to fix the problem of illegal immigrants already in this country.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by DarkLink2135

Now there is something I can agree with. A sane view to fix the problem of illegal immigrants already in this country.

Oh god, if he's agree with me, I must be way off base.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by LeHah

Oh god, if he's agree with me, I must be way off base.

Look, if all you are going to do is be a complete dick and not take this seriously, then tell me now.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Why not make walking across the border a legal way to enter the country? Then they're not illegal immigrants!

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by DarkLink2135

Look, if all you are going to do is be a complete dick and not take this seriously, then tell me now.

I take the subject seriously.

I don't think anyone who has a working synapse in their brain can take *you* seriously.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by LeHah

I take the subject seriously.

I don't think anyone who has a working synapse in their brain can take *you* seriously.

I'll take that as an affirmative.

I was under the opinion that all the internet's immature assholes had congregated in CS:S, but I've been proved wrong.

Have a nice day.

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I didnt know you wanted to lose the war, lehah.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Quote:

Why not make walking across the border a legal way to enter the country? Then they're not illegal immigrants!

Why? Because unchecked immigration could lead to thousands of problems. There would be no more hesitation. There were times in US history where the border was open and it prospered, but this is a different world. There would be swarms of people coming across the borders. Coupled with troubles that the economy is most likely going to go through in the near future, there probably won't be enough jobs for everyone. A lot of these people come to our country because they are desperate/poor/subjugated/whatever. Sure it'd be nice to help them, but desperate and poor people do desperate and poor things (crime, drugs, etc.), especially when the jobs will not let them pay for their usually large families. Remember that the Romans fell ultimately because they opened their borders up to the Goths to come in and work.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Lehah, enlisting these people into the military is not a viable option. Reason being, as it stands the military spends hundreds of thousands of dollars training soldiers who have already a high school degree. Now on top of that training they also have to bring these people up to speed where all current enlistees are already at (12 years of high school). This adds a huge financial burden to the military; their enlistment would have to be 12 years or more for the military to get the same moneys worth on them as they do with regular American soldiers. Have you ever heard of the militaries dependant pay? We had a guy while I was in basic, he was an E-1 and he was taking home 3k a month because he had a wife at home and a lot of fucking kids. If you want to pay and absorbent amount of money to these troops under the current system go right ahead but you'd get better soldiers at a lower cost by recruiting Americans rather than Illegal Aliens.

From what I have heard from other service men and women, they don't want these people in the military. They don't want a draft for that very reason; these people don't want to be there and will only put their lives at risk. I can also say as a member of the military that absolutely do not want to serve next to someone who can't understand what I am ordering him to do.

Double Post:

Originally Posted by gukarma

I didnt know you wanted to lose the war, lehah.

Actually, these people would probably make great front line marines. Remember the Blacks who served in the revolutionary war for their freedom?

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by LeHah, or, How The Internet Hatefucks Itself

if they want to come here illegally, round them up and enlist them for a 5 year term overseas. Educated them, train them and then turn them loose in Iraq for a tour or two. When they come back, they're citizens.

Actually, I think military enlistment is already a shortcut to citizenship. According to google, if you enlist in the military you don't have to be a legal resident of the US for five years before getting your citizenship. Of course, you have to be a legal immigrant before you can take advantage of this.

Double Post:

Originally Posted by Gumby

Reason being, as it stands the military spends hundreds of thousands of dollars training soldiers who have already a high school degree. Now on top of that training they also have to bring these people up to speed where all current enlistees are already at (12 years of high school). This adds a huge financial burden to the military; their enlistment would have to be 12 years or more for the military to get the same moneys worth on them as they do with regular American soldiers.

You're retarded.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by GRUN-3

You're retarded.

Cost of a soldier

Wow way to be an asshole. Ever hear of civilized discussion? Wait, nevermind I should never have expected any more from you.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?