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Thoughts on racism
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DarkLink2135
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 12:13 AM #76 of 215
Originally Posted by kat
You said yourself that women had an important role in American history, why aren't they portrayed more then? Instead they are barely mentioned and the instances they are, it's only a sentence or two.
Am I happy about this? No. And it isn't a sentence or two. Usually its a small separate section sandwiched between everything else. It should just be intergrated with the rest of the sections. There isn't any need to separate important American women just because they are women.

Quote:
The fact that you stubbornly insist that men and europeans have a larger role in history shows your innate ignorance on history as truth.
They have a larger role in American history, and men in general have a larger role in other country's histories also. You are so pissed off about historic injustice towards women that you can't just acknowledge this simple fact.

I and I hope noone else is denying the importance of women in american history. I don't see why its just a huge injustice just to acknowledge that due to the social status of women in the past, it has pretty much made it close to impossible for them to have a massive part in history until recent times.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

FGSFDS!!!
kat
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 12:13 AM Local time: Jun 19, 2006, 10:13 PM #77 of 215
Originally Posted by Snowknight
How, exactly, do we then go about fixing it? The problem with encompassing everything required to accurately--if such is even possible--teach American history comes in its massive scope: how can all of that--plus anything that's already taught, minus any revisions for accuracy's sake--be fit into current course time? Or, are students to spend 75% of their time taking history classes... which really wouldn't be all that bad.
I think the way history is portrayed is just a by-product of society's attitude towards race and until we change that, we can't really make drastic changes.

But a more well rounded view of history would be nice. The role the teacher has in teaching the students is also key, because a textbook is largely created to appeal to the masses and be as sanitary as possible when history is neither. To have a teacher more devoted to a more multicultural and bi-gender history would be the first step, who would supplement the text with his/her own information that the book leaves out. When you change kid's attitudes towards race and gender, it will eventually filters all through society.

I was speaking idiomatically.
Sarag
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 12:13 AM #78 of 215
Originally Posted by DarkLink2135
I'm talking about political America. America as a country. I assume you just mean the land.
I don't.

Look, either Political America (THE UNITED STATES you moron, it already has a name) started with the Revolutionary War or it didn't; if it did, then there's no need to give preference to European history, just teach pre-Revolutionary American history.

If the United States started before the Revolution, in some nebulous proto state, maybe you should consider teaching more than just your favourite foreign countries' involvement in there.

Quote:
You are missing the point. The point there is no point in learning about how a bunch of fucking tribes in Africa killed eachother in why in an American history course.
You racist nigger.

Quote:
Gee, you think that just might be the SLAVE TRADE? Something I've repeatedly emphasized should be taught in American History courses?
Are slaves the only commodity Europe raped from Africa? Also: do you think there are no political paralells between the two, because damn

Quote:
Africans were brought here direct from Africa due to the slave trade. Slave traders stripped most of their cultural identity from them basically causing them to have to re-create their own unique culture.
You are a no-nothing. That is also a history term!

Quote:
West African culture is an entirely different story. It is something that EXISTED IN AMERICA. Something with a DIRECT effect on American culture.
West Africa is a place in America. there are many black people living there. They enjoy "soul food" and they preach voodoo. They sing very good well.

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DarkLink2135
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 12:14 AM #79 of 215
Originally Posted by Magi
How old are you son?
19 1/2. I took my last American history class my junior year of high school.

Quote:
No, we got music, food and religion from there too. Unless you conveniently ignored my post about Voodoo again.
African food, music, and religion as part of mainstream American culture derived from African Americans.

You are getting into the realm of World History now.

Is there any problem with talking about stuff in West Africa in an American history class? Hell no. Is there a problem with spending an entire class going in depth as to all the specifics of history in West Africa? I believe so. There are much larger parts of American history.

FELIPE NO

FGSFDS!!!

Last edited by DarkLink2135; Jun 20, 2006 at 12:17 AM.
knkwzrd
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 12:18 AM Local time: Jun 19, 2006, 11:18 PM #80 of 215
Originally Posted by BigHairyFeet
I almost used Hitler in my argument. .
I assume the denotes the sadness we all feel that you did not use this arguement.

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DarkLink2135
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 12:21 AM #81 of 215
Originally Posted by a lurker
I don't.

Look, either Political America (THE UNITED STATES you moron, it already has a name) started with the Revolutionary War or it didn't; if it did, then there's no need to give preference to European history, just teach pre-Revolutionary American history.
Thank you. At least we are on the same playing field now. I don't know where you went to school, but we didn't learn about European history in American History class. Did we learn about pre-revolutionary American history? Sure. Did we mention some of the stuff going on in mainland england at the time? Hell yes, they had a direct effect on the soon-to-be United States.

Quote:
Are slaves the only commodity Europe raped from Africa? Also: do you think there are no political paralells between the two, because damn
There isn't enough of a bearing on American History to put a big emphasis on it.

Quote:
West Africa is a place in America. there are many black people living there. They enjoy "soul food" and they preach voodoo. They sing very good well.
WHO is a racist nigger????

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FGSFDS!!!
No. Hard Pass.
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 12:21 AM Local time: Jun 19, 2006, 11:21 PM #82 of 215
Originally Posted by DarkLink2135
Am I happy about this? No. And it isn't a sentence or two. Usually its a small separate section sandwiched between everything else. It should just be intergrated with the rest of the sections. There isn't any need to separate important American women just because they are women.



They have a larger role in American history, and men in general have a larger role in other country's histories also. You are so pissed off about historic injustice towards women that you can't just acknowledge this simple fact.

I and I hope noone else is denying the importance of women in american history. I don't see why its just a huge injustice just to acknowledge that due to the social status of women in the past, it has pretty much made it close to impossible for them to have a massive part in history until recent times.
You need to be much more specific in your wording, mate. Women had very small pressures on political history, but a massive impact on social history. Which is just as important as political history in explaining how a society worked. I could sit back and explain to you how the Muinane tribe of South America organise their tribal government, but without explaining the societal organisation, it would just be placements and large movements with no context. Until you can put those political movements into a contextualized surrounding, they're just facts in a book. Your problem is that you seem to only look at the large, obvious bits of history as relevant. You're looking at the peak and missing the iceberg, mate. History is about context, and you're just giving it concept.

There's nowhere I can't reach.


John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD.

Sarag
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 12:21 AM #83 of 215
Originally Posted by DarkLink2135
19 1/2.
Is that really necessary? The half, I mean?

I'm going to ask again. If you know very little about African history or culture, why do you feel fit to judge whether it might be relevant to an American history course?

I will also ask, why don't you feel it's relevant to discuss pre-whitey settlers while discussing American history?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
Eleo
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 12:22 AM #84 of 215
Originally Posted by BigHairyFeet
I almost used Hitler in my argument. .
Please do.

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kat
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 12:23 AM Local time: Jun 19, 2006, 10:23 PM #85 of 215
Originally Posted by DarkLink2135
Am I happy about this? No. And it isn't a sentence or two. Usually its a small separate section sandwiched between everything else. It should just be intergrated with the rest of the sections. There isn't any need to separate important American women just because they are women.
And with this, you speak nonsense since you just admitted your last class was 3 years ago.

Quote:
They have a larger role in American history, and men in general have a larger role in other country's histories also. You are so pissed off about historic injustice towards women that you can't just acknowledge this simple fact.

I and I hope noone else is denying the importance of women in american history. I don't see why its just a huge injustice just to acknowledge that due to the social status of women in the past, it has pretty much made it close to impossible for them to have a massive part in history until recent times.
I'm not pissed off. I'm not so much a feminist as a woman who happens to enjoy touting racial injustice

Women were a large part of prohibition yet they aren't mentioned. Women's suffrage (like I mentioned above). The 1960's movement. The numerous women politicians and historical figures. I'm not talking about a 50/50 portrayal because that would be mad and I'm well aware of the hurdles women had to overcome to get to where we are now but even with recent times, they are barely mentioned with any sort of historical significance.

Why won't you just admit it's because of EXTENUATING factors in the portrayal of history rather than history itself.

I was speaking idiomatically.
Sarag
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 12:23 AM #86 of 215
Originally Posted by DarkLink2135
There isn't enough of a bearing on American History to put a big emphasis on it.
You don't even know what the history is, though. Why do you feel an authority in these matters? Why do you get a say?

Quote:
WHO is a racist nigger????
You think white people don't worship cars. That's pretty niggardly to me.

How ya doing, buddy?
DarkLink2135
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 12:24 AM #87 of 215
Originally Posted by Denicalis
You need to be much more specific in your wording, mate. Women had very small pressures on political history, but a massive impact on social history. Which is just as important as political history in explaining how a society worked. I could sit back and explain to you how the Muinane tribe of South America organise their tribal government, but without explaining the societal organisation, it would just be placements and large movements with no context. Until you can put those political movements into a contextualized surrounding, they're just facts in a book. Your problem is that you seem to only look at the large, obvious bits of history as relevant. You're looking at the peak and missing the iceberg, mate. History is about context, and you're just giving it concept.
Touche, mate .

I was thinking of political history rather than social history. Socially women are a massive part of American history, and I spent a good amount of time in my junior American History class learning about Women's suffrage, and other rights women won for themselves.

I'm not saying smaller, less obvious bits of history aren't releveant or important. I've repeated this over and over, yet nobody seems to catch this:

These smaller, less obvious bits do NOT need to have the same amount of importance and time put on them as the large, obvious bits of history.

Double Post:
Originally Posted by a lurker
You don't even know what the history is, though. Why do you feel an authority in these matters? Why do you get a say?



You think white people don't worship cars. That's pretty niggardly to me.

Are you actually trying to tell me that political ties between Africa and Europe have a large enough impact on American history to require more than a passing sentence in a textbook?

Something like that is common sense. I don't need to be Mr. History Channel TV Historian to tell you that isn't as important as the Civil war.

FELIPE NO

FGSFDS!!!

Last edited by DarkLink2135; Jun 20, 2006 at 12:26 AM. Reason: Automerged additional post.
Sarag
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 12:27 AM #88 of 215
Originally Posted by DarkLink2135
These smaller, less obvious bits do NOT need to have the same amount of importance and time put on them as the large, obvious bits of history.
You didn't read Deni's post well good enough if you still think this.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?
No. Hard Pass.
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 12:27 AM Local time: Jun 19, 2006, 11:27 PM #89 of 215
Originally Posted by DarkLink2135
Touche, mate .

I was thinking of political history rather than social history. Socially women are a massive part of American history, and I spent a good amount of time in my junior American History class learning about Women's suffrage, and other rights women won for themselves.

I'm not saying smaller, less obvious bits of history aren't releveant or important. I've repeated this over and over, yet nobody seems to catch this:

These smaller, less obvious bits do NOT need to have the same amount of importance and time put on them as the large, obvious bits of history.
But are we talking in a highschool all-encompassing history class, or are we talking a political history course in university? The latter, I completely agree with you. Sadly, women don't play as large a role in political history. However, if it's for say, a basic history course like a survery course, or a high school course, I think it should be given fair time. Those courses are about giving you a taste of all the historical options open to you.

Jam it back in, in the dark.


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Old Jun 20, 2006, 12:28 AM #90 of 215
Originally Posted by DarkLink2135
Are you actually trying to tell me that political ties between Africa and Europe have a large enough impact on American history to require more than a passing sentence in a textbook?
I said 'relevant', not 'impacting', carboy.

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Crash "Long-Winded Wrong Answer" Landon
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 12:28 AM #91 of 215
I tend to agree with the basic sentiment of the e-mail in question. I have, for years, found it reprehensible that historical error - admitted error - could be used to justify modern intolerances. I don't even want to get into the minute, pedantic particulars of history and its sociological implications. That's just an unending hellhole of futility.

For the larger part, all those who were involved with slavery and the greater era of segregation are dead. On all sides of the fences. We now realize and agree that such a practice was inhumane. I, personally, have never been involved in slavery, segregation, apartheid or any movement aimed at reducing the freedoms of another race or creed. I find it ludicrous that anyone could assume otherwise based simply by my apparent lineage. The retaliatory derogation applied by some groups is almost Biblical in its dogma; I have been cursed with the "sins" of my forebearers. Only this time, there's no sacred ritual that would cleanse the "taint" from my soul.

The tragedy is that, even for having this opinion, it could be construed that I've some axe to grind against minorities. I could be called a racist. I could be accused of pointing a wagging finger at someone who meant me no ill will. Ironic, no?
Yet even more bothersome is the idea that, for those who do judge my intent by my color, there is seemingly little I can do to refute their opinion. I am bound by perceptions of historical wrongdoing, trapped inside my invisible box, unable to dodge or return jabs from pointy sticks thrust inward. Doing so would only validate their claims against me.

So why, as a white person, am I a racist for not liking the way other groups demonstrably regard me?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
Sarag
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 12:32 AM #92 of 215
Originally Posted by Crash Landon
For the larger part, all those who were involved with slavery and the greater era of segregation are dead. On all sides of the fences.
Many companies directly benefited from slavery in the past, and they are still kicking around. They might not be individuals, and this might have nothing to do with paleface / darkies, but there you go.

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Old Jun 20, 2006, 12:32 AM Local time: Jun 19, 2006, 11:32 PM #93 of 215
Originally Posted by Crash Landon
So why, as a white person, am I a racist for not liking the way other groups demonstrably regard me?
Words are just words. It's intent that is harmful. I believe that people who get offended by terms are perpetuating a dangerous concept of syllables of sound being dangerous. It isn't the syllables being used, it's how they're used. The hate behind them, if you will.

For example, if Mr. Landon were to say I was his nigger, we'd chuckle and move on. If he was to spit angrily "I fucking hate that nigger" it would be different. I think people work themselves up too easily over what really doesn't matter.

How ya doing, buddy?


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DarkLink2135
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 12:32 AM #94 of 215
Quote:
I will also ask, why don't you feel it's relevant to discuss pre-whitey settlers while discussing American history?
Fuck you and your 3 brain cells.

Go to bed and then re-read my posts when you have a scrap of intelligence. The current emphasis put on native american history, government, culture, etc, is not called for in current American history curriculum.

Not everything is black and white, all or nothing.

Quote:
You think white people don't worship cars. That's pretty niggardly to me.
I never once said this, nor do I think this. You have the reading comprehension of a fucking brick. I'm not even sure how you could even get such an assinine idea out of what I said.

kat - I'm not sure where you live, but we spent a good deal of time on Women's suffrage, women's involvement in prohibition, etc, in my class. If your teacher is just passing that stuff by like it isn't important, bring it up. Or if it's too late for that, then yeah, you have a reason to be pissed off at that matter .

Quote:
And with this, you speak nonsense since you just admitted your last class was 3 years ago.
Maybe other people are different, but stuff I learn in history class doesn't just magically disappear from my brain.

--------------------------------------------------

Goodnight, I'm done here. I'm down to endlessly repeating myself because I can't get certain points through lurker's and devo's skull.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

FGSFDS!!!

Last edited by DarkLink2135; Jun 20, 2006 at 12:35 AM.
kat
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 12:32 AM Local time: Jun 19, 2006, 10:32 PM #95 of 215
Originally Posted by BigHairyFeet
History is what we all choose to believe. The texts in the history are what we all get taught, and so the generation goes forward with similar knowledge of the world. Sure you can try and stir up people to adopt a completely different historical mindset, but its like trying to shove a baseball bat down your cat's throat; it's just not gonna succeed 100%.
What. History is what we choose to believe? Then I'd like believe that China never went Communist and the Nationalists won. It doesn't make it fact but if I teach enough ignorant people, then I might just get my way.

Look, you're not realizing that in the scope of history, there is one and only one truth. Situation A happened at Location B during Time C. It's humans who take this raw data and skew them to their liking. Person D was the hero, Person E was the victim. It (I guess you can say) humanizes this data and creates bias. This is the history we're taught. I'm not saying what we learn is all filth but most of it is warped in some way by several factors and what comes out in the end, is not what happened originally.

Like the herofication of most historical figures. Washington actually was not as good a military man as books make him out to be, but we wouldn't know because we're all told how his actions saved the Revolution. History, at its essence, is like a really bad game of telephone. Each person who get their hands on it changes it in some way to their liking while the original person is the only one who knows what really happened.

By accessing first-hand sources, even second-hand sources or simply information without bias, we are able to furthur acheive knowledge of that original raw data. We're not getting people to adopt a different historical mindset but a historical mindset that is at its core, is pure and true. This may be impossible but by even beginning to strive for it, it's still better than having to read the stuff they give you in school.

FELIPE NO
Sarag
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 12:36 AM #96 of 215
Originally Posted by DarkLink2135
Fuck you and your 3 brain cells.

Go to bed and then re-read my posts when you have a scrap of intelligence. The current emphasis put on native american history, government, culture, etc, is not called for in current American history curriculum.

Not everything is black and white, all or nothing.
So why don't you think we should learn about injuns? Aren't they Americans too?

Quote:
I never once said this, nor do I think this. You have the reading comprehension of a fucking brick.
You did say it. I posted a link previously in regards to that. If that's not what you meant, perhaps you shouldn't have used car worship as an example of differences between hispanics and white folks. I mean, is it that difficult to say what you mean?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?
kat
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 12:36 AM Local time: Jun 19, 2006, 10:36 PM #97 of 215
Originally Posted by DarkLink2135
kat - I'm not sure where you live, but we spent a good deal of time on Women's suffrage, women's involvement in prohibition, etc, in my class. If your teacher is just passing that stuff by like it isn't important, bring it up. Or if it's too late for that, then yeah, you have a reason to be pissed off at that matter .

Maybe other people are different, but stuff I learn in history class doesn't just magically disappear from my brain.
Don't fucking patronize me, especially since you're the bigot in this scenario.

And I'm really amazed you still remember the layout of your history book from 3 years ago that woman's suffrage was in a box off to the top right side on page 392.

Jam it back in, in the dark.
Sarag
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 12:37 AM #98 of 215
Originally Posted by DarkLink2135
Goodnight, I'm done here. I'm down to endlessly repeating myself because I can't get certain points through lurker's and devo's skull.
Do you think you're convincing anyone?

There's nowhere I can't reach.
Magi
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 12:39 AM Local time: Jun 19, 2006, 10:39 PM #99 of 215
Quote:
The current emphasis put on native american history, government, culture, etc, is not called for in current American history curriculum.

Not everything is black and white, all or nothing.
I personally believe that knowledge of the Native American history and culture is vital to understanding of later conflicts between them and European settlers, which persisted for a very long time even after the Union has been established.

Its easy to frame the term in European perspective during that time, however, we are not dealing with bunch of animals when we are talking about native Americans, without knowledge of their relationship to the land and how they lived, its easy to get into the same mind set of the settler and justify the type of atrocity that follows.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
No. Hard Pass.
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Old Jun 20, 2006, 12:39 AM Local time: Jun 19, 2006, 11:39 PM #100 of 215
Just as a further note on my last post, I'm going to toss this up. I imagine no one cares, but hey, for the sake of completion:

SOURCE

Quote:
Sacred and profane
Commentary
by Lucas M. McWilliams
the Carillon

The usage of “cunt”
–––

There are few words that garner the sort of ire that cunt does. As an insult, it is second to none. It has come to signify the basest of insults that can be hurled around a room, and is absolutely venomous when snarled properly. It is, however, just a word. And like all words, it has undergone radical changes since its initial foray into the lexicon, and will continue to shift in future. I’m not about to go into the etymology of the word, as it is both highly contested and incredibly broad. (There is, however, a wonderful history available at http://www.matthewhunt.com/cunt/etymology.html that manages to encompass the main theories while offering a historical context.)

The word was not always as profane as it is now; long before it was a taboo, it was used in medical journals and existed in the common vocabulary of English speakers. So, when did this liberal use of cunt become so maligned? Around the same time we began saying “white meat” instead of “breast meat.” This switch from the sacred to the profane came with the rise of Puritanism and has stayed strong ever since. Although words like fuck and prick have become much less grotesque over the years, cunt has managed to hold its sway over us.

It is this enduring ability to be offensive that makes the c-bomb so intriguing. With the re-appropriation of words like wog and queer we have seen how hateful words can be taken from the domain of the abusers and become empowering for the abused, and cunt is not far behind. As comedian Lenny Bruce said, “the word’s suppression gives it the power, the violence, the viciousness.” There is also a large movement that agrees with him. Within the domain of the so-called “cunt-power” movement, there have emerged many strong voices decrying the defamation of the word, such as “Cuntfest” at Penn. State and the “Cunt Club” at Wesleyan University.

Many people credit the modern student movement of Megan Goudy and Ashley Newton for the modern swing of taking cunt from the profane to the sacred, as their paper released in 2004, spoke of how the history of the word had become largely forgotten and that “by recognizing and reclaiming the etymological connotation of the word ‘cunt,’ women can take back part of the language that keeps them in their socially determined subordinate position.” Though this position is nothing new, it does bring one point to light that should definitely be stressed. Cunt is a word. It is not but letters arranged in a left-to-right fashion and nothing more. The meaning is entirely what you make of it, and by hiding it in a corner and shuddering whenever it is pulled to light you empower it.

Language is an ever-changing thing, and we all have the ability to prescribe our own meanings to it. I am not saying that you should not be offended if someone calls you a “raving cunt,” but be offended by the hate behind it, not the word itself. The word is nothing. At least Shakespeare got that right.


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