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View Poll Results: Firearms!
FOR! (The only right answer) 21 38.18%
Against (Insert random joke) 32 58.18%
Undecided (too weak to have your own opinion?) 2 3.64%
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

For or against?
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peeack
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 08:19 PM Local time: Mar 29, 2006, 11:19 AM #51 of 276
Originally Posted by David4516
It is a bad thing. It's bad because kids that have no fucking idea what they're doing sometimes get their hands on guns. There'd be fewer "accidents" if kids were told how to properly handle a firearm...
Because kids should have access to guns! Okay!

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
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Minion
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 08:43 PM #52 of 276
Quote:
So what? Alot of people have a hard time, that doesn't mean it's okay to break into someones house.

Minion, you seem that think that criminals are really a bunch of nice guys at heart, that they're simply mis-understood. I don't buy that...
Man, I love it when people don't read my entire post. Go back and read the very next line that you neglected to quote.

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Old Mar 28, 2006, 08:43 PM Local time: Mar 28, 2006, 08:43 PM #53 of 276
Originally Posted by David4516
I believe that you are either justified in killing someone, or you aren't. The weapon that you use is irrelavlent...

Again, I don't understand this line of thought, that it's "honorable" to kill someone with a blade, but "cowardly" to do the same thing with a bullet... the end result is the same, so what differance does it make?

I think it has mopre to do with how much more easily someone can convince themselves to shoot someone over say beating them to death with a baseball bat. The former jsut requires pulling a trigger form a relatively safe distance whereas the latter means you need to get up close to summon and put a lot of physical effort into ending up with lot more blood and sweat on you as a result. Not to mention the greater physchological commitment required to hit somone over and over as opposed to pulling a trigger once. And the whole fact that guns don't offer a lot of option on how lethal the force is you use. I mean there's really only one option if things have escalated to the point of gun drawing as you can't really just knock someoen out with one.

I was speaking idiomatically.
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Bradylama
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 08:52 PM Local time: Mar 28, 2006, 08:52 PM #54 of 276
Quote:
Yes. It's very different. Because at that point you now out-gun every law enforcement officer minus a SWAT team. Unlike the German Politzer who carries around SMGs, American police officers are inadequately equipped.
Nigga plz, if I carry anything bigger than a 9mm automatic, I'm already outgunning the police. Your standard shotgun is heavier firepower than what most beat cops would use (though they have to get it off the gun rack).

Besides, if citizens can't own anything that can penetrate Level I armor, how are we supposed to effectively rebel? :'D

The simple solution to this problem would be giving police better body armor, and better firearms, but that costs cash money, and lobbyists love pushing peacenik issues that get the standard police caliber down to 9mm from 45 cal.

Quote:
Because kids should have access to guns! Okay!
It's not a matter of letting kids have guns, it's a matter of shattering the illusion that guns are toys. Something that can only be properly done by a symbol of authority, like your parents.

Maybe it shouldn't be a school thing, but parents with guns should teach their kids how to use them, and why they shouldn't mess with them. Also locked, all that sort of thing.

Quote:
Shoplifters aren't executed for a reason, and so on.
Shoplifters, on the other hand, are invited onto the property. The same can't be said for a home invader. You also have a clearly defined area of intent with a confirmed shoplifter. With a home invader, the intent could be any number of things. This is why the severity of self-defense on the behalf of the property owner must be entrusted to him or her, to practice at his or her discretion.

Quote:
On the subject of availability of firearms: Yeah, weapons are easily bought illegaly. My argument against this, is that if every joe sixpack didn't buy gun(s), then there would be a whole hell of a lot less made. A whole hell of a lot less stolen/lost/resold illegaly. Those illegaly obtained weapons have to come from somewhere, and they are only made because there is a legal demand for them.
This is true. That does not, however, eliminate the demand for black market firearms, which will then come from outside of the country, usually in the form of Soviet Surplus and 3rd World knockoffs. The end result, then, is less firearms overall, but more dangerous firearms.

Quote:
Please elaborate on all the other practicle things you do?
Use it as a crutch. Clearly you hate cripples.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
peeack
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 09:00 PM Local time: Mar 29, 2006, 12:00 PM #55 of 276
Quote:
It's not a matter of letting kids have guns, it's a matter of shattering the illusion that guns are toys. Something that can only be properly done by a symbol of authority, like your parents.

Maybe it shouldn't be a school thing, but parents with guns should teach their kids how to use them, and why they shouldn't mess with them. Also locked, all that sort of thing.
The way you put it makes alot more sense than the way Gumby and Mr. Numbers presented their argument. I still disagree that it's a great idea to be gung ho about teaching kids how to use guns, but then maybe I have a different idea of what age group 'kids' encompasses.

FELIPE NO
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Last edited by peeack; Mar 28, 2006 at 09:20 PM.
Greykin
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 09:03 PM #56 of 276
Too many people blame firearms for bad things. Saying guns kill people is like saying pencils cause spelling mistakes.

I can't believe I posted in the political palace ._.

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Bradylama
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 09:09 PM Local time: Mar 28, 2006, 09:09 PM #57 of 276
Yeah, but pencils weren't made to butcher vocabulary.

If I see another "Guns don't kill people" post, it will be deleted.

Jam it back in, in the dark.
Minion
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 09:20 PM #58 of 276
Guns don't kill people. Bullets kill people.

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peeack
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 09:20 PM Local time: Mar 29, 2006, 12:20 PM #59 of 276
bullets + high velocity kills people!

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
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NovaX
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 09:49 PM Local time: Mar 29, 2006, 01:19 PM #60 of 276
Quote:
Actually I think the analogy is near perfect. Both Cars and Guns are mechanical devices that when used improperly or not treated with respect can become VERY deadly. There are millions of guns in this country. There are also millions of cars in this country. The funny thing is that more people die in car wrecks than in gun fights... so maybe we should outlaw private ownership of motor vehicles?
Holy shit, I think you may have come up the worst analogy ever. Let's outlaw rocks, they aren't meant for killing, but you can kill people with them. Hell let's outlaw XBOXES, they are also not meant for killing, but you could kill someone by dropping it on their head.

Cars cause deaths, but that's not their purpose. You aren't going to buy a car because of it's perfect grandma killing abilities, you are going to buy a car or vehicle that suits your transport needs. Whether it be a family car for taking the kids to school and sport, a van for deliveries, a ute for carrying shit in the tray or just a small car for travelling for work. Cars aren't meant for killing.

Comparing guns to knives isn't even all that logical. Most knives that people are in possesion of are kitchen knives. Thier purpose? Cutting veggies, cutting pastry or cutting the chicken fillets into smaller pieces. Sure you can get the army knives and the flick-knives in which one of their purposes would be "protection" (stabbing people). But knives have many more practical uses and most would not include killing or stabbing.

Guns however, what purpose do they have? Shooting and killing. You aren't going to buy a gun for it's ability to cut vegetables, you are going to buy s gun for it's ability to kill people. All guns have no other uses than shooting, whether it be shooting cans, shooting animals or humans. You are damaging everything you shoot, you aren't going to shoot something to help it.

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Last edited by NovaX; Mar 28, 2006 at 09:52 PM.
Gordon_Freeman
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 09:55 PM #61 of 276
What gets me is the pointlessness of so much gun violence. Unfettered access to high powered weapons can turn the most unambitious, offkilter dim-wit into a mass murderer. Would Mr Seattle Pizza deliverer cum last action hero have bothered to kill all those people if it wasn't so damn easy?

It is hard to hear the endless parade of rampage stories and not think that some kind of robust control scheme needs to be implemented and enforced to keep guns out of the hands of the asylum crowd.

I was speaking idiomatically.
David4516
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 10:00 PM Local time: Mar 28, 2006, 07:00 PM #62 of 276
Quote:
On the subject of killing intruders because they are 'the bad guys': There are degrees to being a bad person or criminal. I think Minion's point is that just because someone will steal (bad), does not mean that they will rape/murder (more bad).
That is correct, however, how is the home owner suposed to be able to sort the semi-bad guys from the really nasty bad guys at 3am in the dark?

Quote:
On the subject of availability of firearms: Yeah, weapons are easily bought illegaly. My argument against this, is that if every joe sixpack didn't buy gun(s), then there would be a whole hell of a lot less made. A whole hell of a lot less stolen/lost/resold illegaly. Those illegaly obtained weapons have to come from somewhere, and they are only made because there is a legal demand for them.
I don't think so. Take weed for example, there is no legal demand for it, but it's still easy to find. Also, prohibition was another example of this. It would be the same with firearms...

Quote:
On the subject of 'guns don't kill people': If you are in a confrontation, and someone pulls a weapon it escalates to situation. What might have been a fist fight turns into a killing.
You are 100% correct. The ONLY time it's okay to "shoot first, ask questions later" is in the event of a home invasion. As I said before, when you're out on the streets, your gun is your very last resort, you don't pull your gun unless you're going to die if you don't shoot. In reality, carrying a gun is only a tiny part of the "self-defense" puzzle. There's alot more to being safe than just having a pistol. Its a good idea to carry things like a cell phone or flashlight. Learning a martial art is also a great idea. I've been practicing TaeKwonDo for a few years now, and I hope that if I ever have to defend myself, I can use my fist instead of my pistol. The problem with relying on the gun alone, is that if your only tool is a hammer, all your problems will start looking like nails...

Quote:
I hear an awful lot of excuses about owning them, maybe instead of excusing the behaviour you might examine for yourself why you 'need' them.
What does 'need' have to do with it? I hear this alot "you don't NEED a gun"...

I hope I never NEED one. However, it is possible that I will one day, and if that day comes I want to be prepared. Also, there are many reasons why I WANT but don't NEED one. Target shooting and hunting mainly. Isn't that enough reason?

Quote:
Also, what other uses for your guns have you found?
I've listed "other uses" already many times in this thread... but here goes:

Hunting
Target Shooting
Collecting
Self Defense

Quote:
Because kids should have access to guns! Okay!
When did I say that? They shouldn't, however the fact of the matter is that sometimes they do, and then bad things happen because they don't know what to do in that kind of situation. I like the way that Bradylama puts it, they need someone to teach them that firearms are NOT toys...

Quote:
And the whole fact that guns don't offer a lot of option on how lethal the force is you use. I mean there's really only one option if things have escalated to the point of gun drawing as you can't really just knock someoen out with one.
Once again I agree. As I said, having a gun is only a small part of being able to protect yourself... if you're only tool is a gun you're very limited in what you can do...

Quote:
I still disagree that it'sa great idea to be gung ho about teaching kids how to use guns, but thetn maybe I have a different idea of what age group 'kids' encompasses.
When I say teach kids about guns, I don't mean take them down to the range and have them fire off a few rounds, I mean teach them the saftey basics like "don't point a gun at people"...

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
NovaX
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 10:04 PM Local time: Mar 29, 2006, 01:34 PM #63 of 276
Collecting isn't a use.

"Oh, hay! What do you use that gun for?"
"Oh collecting!"
"Right, what do you collect with it?"
"Guns.."

You can collect guns, but guns can't be used for collecting.

FELIPE NO
Gumby
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 10:10 PM Local time: Mar 29, 2006, 05:10 AM #64 of 276
CetteHamsterLa: Hitting someone over and over with a baseball bat to kill them is murder. Shooting someone because they are shooting at you is self defense. You make it sound like I as someone who wants a gun to defend my home that I am just out to kill any jackass who breaks into my home. You are dead wrong. I know when a gun necessary and when it is not. Anyone who has been properly taught about firearms knows this as well. This is another reason why our children should receive gun training.

peeack, all American children should be taught respect for a firearm. You seem to think they should never touch them which is stupid. I fired a 30/30 when I was 8. That gun has a lot of kick for a child that age and I have always had a healthy respect for guns. This prevents kids from wanting to play with something that is very much not a toy.

PUG1911: You make it sound like every time someone breaking into a home that the people who are armed will kill this person. That is not the case, if I have to draw a weapon on someone who has broken into my home I would not fire unless it was warranted, ie they have their own gun pointed at me, they try and charge me, or any other aggressive action for that matter. If they turn and run, that is the end of it and I will leave them to the cops to catch them. Gun owners are not cold blooded killers like so many people like to make us out to be. My primary use for a firearm would be target practice, a fine use of a firearm. I also like to hunt, again another use for a firearm that is not used against another human being. But do not think that I will hesitate when some shitbag violates my rights that I will not stand up for myself.

NovaX: I can kill you with just about anything. A sword for example is designed to kill people, a gun however can be designed to do more than. You act as though all guns are used to kill people, the simple fact is that very few of the guns sold in the US are used in violent crimes.

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Arbok
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 10:11 PM #65 of 276
Originally Posted by David4516
The funny thing is that more people die in car wrecks than in gun fights... so maybe we should outlaw private ownership of motor vehicles?
Funny thing is that more people drive a car then own a gun too, but please keep doing your number spinning...

Double Post:
Originally Posted by Gumby
NovaX: I can kill you with just about anything. A sword for example is designed to kill people, a gun however can be designed to do more than. You act as though all guns are used to kill people, the simple fact is that very few of the guns sold in the US are used in violent crimes.
So wait, swords can't be designed for self protection, but guns... can?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Last edited by Arbok; Mar 28, 2006 at 10:16 PM. Reason: Automerged double post.
NovaX
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 10:21 PM Local time: Mar 29, 2006, 01:51 PM #66 of 276
Quote:
I can kill you with just about anything. A sword for example is designed to kill people, a gun however can be designed to do more than. You act as though all guns are used to kill people, the simple fact is that very few of the guns sold in the US are used in violent crimes.
Seriously what other use do they have other than killing? Hunting is killing, target practice is just that, practicing for killinga target. And if, as you say, very few guns are used in violent crimes, the simple fact is they are not being used. Guns can't be used in a non-violent manner.

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Old Mar 28, 2006, 10:22 PM Local time: Mar 29, 2006, 05:22 AM #67 of 276
A sword was designed explicitly for fighting with other humans. Firearms however can be designed for hunting as well as weapons of war. So please do not twist my words.

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Arbok
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 10:24 PM #68 of 276
Originally Posted by Gumby
A sword was designed explicitly for fighting with other humans. Firearms however can be designed for hunting as well as weapons of war. So please do not twist my words.
So people never fought wars while using swords or hunted with them either?

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Skexis
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 10:28 PM Local time: Mar 28, 2006, 10:28 PM #69 of 276
Originally Posted by David4516
It is a bad thing. It's bad because kids that have no fucking idea what they're doing sometimes get their hands on guns. There'd be fewer "accidents" if kids were told how to properly handle a firearm...
This isn't quite the same argument as sex education, so don't try to make it out to be. Obviously it depends on age level, but a kid that knows how to use a gun, what a gun case is, how to undo a gun lock, how to safety off, load and fire, is going to be more danger to others. You know how there's that whole argument that kids are still emotionally developing into their late twenties? Well, I think adolescents with guns is just as bad an idea as trying to lower the drinking age to 18.

Most adolescent judgment is already impaired, so why tempt fate? It's an assumption that just because you can do something, you should. I for one would predict a severe increase in not only gun related violence (crimes of passion) but also a basic increase in criminality. Not by virtue of guns being violent implements, but because you're sanctioning the means of their use by people not sufficiently mature to see that they're put to good use.

Originally Posted by PUG1911
Yeah, weapons are easily bought illegaly. My argument against this, is that if every joe sixpack didn't buy gun(s), then there would be a whole hell of a lot less made. A whole hell of a lot less stolen/lost/resold illegaly. Those illegaly obtained weapons have to come from somewhere, and they are only made because there is a legal demand for them.
Roger roger. Makes it a whole lot easier to trace/track down/incarcerate.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Last edited by Skexis; Mar 28, 2006 at 10:31 PM.
peeack
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 10:30 PM Local time: Mar 29, 2006, 01:30 PM #70 of 276
Originally Posted by Gumby
peeack, all American children should be taught respect for a firearm. You seem to think they should never touch them which is stupid. I fired a 30/30 when I was 8. That gun has a lot of kick for a child that age and I have always had a healthy respect for guns. This prevents kids from wanting to play with something that is very much not a toy.
Respect != use.

I got taught not to run out on the road, cause I could get my arse run over. I wasn't taught to drive at age eight, to demonstrate the power of an automobile. Poor analogy I guess, but you can see my point (probably not though). What purpose does an eight year old have ever touching a gun? Here Jimmy, I'm going to teach you how to shoot guns! So you'll no never to shoot guns! I don't get it.

Originally Posted by AMERICCAAAAAAA
all American children should be taught respect for a firearm
hurrr.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
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Meth
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 10:36 PM Local time: Mar 28, 2006, 09:36 PM #71 of 276
I like guns. I've had exposure and access to guns since I can remember. I got my first one when I was 8 (a good old 4-10 shotgun) and got my first pistol at 13. I've yet to kill anybody with my guns and nobody's killed me with them yet. I do like to go shooting on occasion, but i'm not a freak about it. I'd carry a pistol with me on long road trips and stuff just to be safe, but I've never driven around town playing Wyatt Earp.

I think gun control has really become a scapegoat for bigger problems. People have been killing each other since the dawn of man. People are going to kill people, with guns, knives, and their hands. Saying that guns are the issue here is pretty silly. People are violent creatures, hell, all animals are. The world is not a pretty place all the time. So get over it and quit all the senseless gun bashing.

Guns are pretty remarkable from an artistic and engineering standpoint. The efficiency of a .22 long bullet is pretty amazing. It's actually able to harness near 20 some % of the energy of the explosive inside. It's also amazingly accurate to some distance.

Wait a minute, who started this goddamn thread? Don't you realize that you'll never win over these people? Does anybody recall a time where there was a debate here in the PP over something like this where somebody said:
"Well shit, that was an amazing arguement. I'm just going to have to change the way I think about that one. Thanks for the enlightenment!"?

FELIPE NO

Last edited by Meth; Mar 28, 2006 at 10:39 PM.
David4516
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 10:51 PM Local time: Mar 28, 2006, 07:51 PM #72 of 276
Quote:
Collecting isn't a use.
What about other forms of collecting? Like Coin collecting or stamp collecting? Sometimes people just want to have something for a collection, without any intention of acutally "using" it...

Quote:
Funny thing is that more people drive a car then own a gun too, but please keep doing your number spinning...
Actually, you'd be suprised... I think something like 50% of the US population are gun owners...

Quote:
Seriously what other use do they have other than killing? Hunting is killing, target practice is just that, practicing for killinga target. And if, as you say, very few guns are used in violent crimes, the simple fact is they are not being used. Guns can't be used in a non-violent manner.
I dis-agree, but I don't think I'm going to be able to change your mind on this one...

And Gumby, you CAN hunt with a sword. I think I read someplace that in the old days africans would hunt lions with swords as a "right of passage". Basicly, if you can kill a big ass lion with a sword, then you're badass enough to be called a "man", LOL...

Skexis, I think you have the wrong idea. I've said this already, but when I'm talking about "gun ed" I don't mean taking kids out the the range and showing them how to shoot...

I would however like to point out that I've been shooting since I was about 5 or 6, and I didn't turn out to be a violent killer. Therefore I think there is something wrong with your argument...

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Skexis
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 10:56 PM Local time: Mar 28, 2006, 10:56 PM #73 of 276
Originally Posted by MetheGelfling
I like guns. I've had exposure and access to guns since I can remember. I got my first one when I was 8 (a good old 4-10 shotgun) and got my first pistol at 13. I've yet to kill anybody with my guns and nobody's killed me with them yet. I do like to go shooting on occasion, but i'm not a freak about it. I'd carry a pistol with me on long road trips and stuff just to be safe, but I've never driven around town playing Wyatt Earp.
No one is saying there aren't children who can handle a gun intelligently and with restraint. Hell, I've gone shooting myself, as young as 8. Enjoyed it. Would probably buy a gun if I ever had the desire to spend hard earned money so I could shoot recreationally. But how sure are you that your childhood is a representative sample of children everywhere?

Children can be taught by their parents to use guns safely, if the parents wish their children to learn how to use guns. But the parents that take the time to explain consequences probably won't outnumber the ones who stick the gun in a closet and hope that everything will turn out okay, and hope it will never see any use.

Originally Posted by David4516
Skexis, I think you have the wrong idea. I've said this already, but when I'm talking about "gun ed" I don't mean taking kids out the the range and showing them how to shoot...
I'm not trying to imply that guns make killers out of people. In fact, I specifically said that it's not the "guns' violent nature" that causes the violence. It's a matter of probability, of increasing the availability of their use.

But I guess I am a little hazy on the idea of "gun education." Exactly what do they teach you? What the safety is? What the barrel does? "Point away from face before opening"?

Jam it back in, in the dark.
Gumby
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 11:02 PM Local time: Mar 29, 2006, 06:02 AM #74 of 276
David I thought they used long spears for that... I could be mistaken though.

MeTheGefling: I started this thread to get them out of my DD thread on firearms.

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NovaX
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Old Mar 28, 2006, 11:02 PM Local time: Mar 29, 2006, 02:32 PM #75 of 276
Originally Posted by David4516
What about other forms of collecting? Like Coin collecting or stamp collecting? Sometimes people just want to have something for a collection, without any intention of acutally "using" it...
Did you even read what I wrote?
Quote:
You can collect guns, but guns can't be used for collecting.
I didn't say you can't collect guns, I am saying guns can't be used for collecting. You pretty much contradicted what you said anyway, "Sometimes people just want to have something for a collection, without any intention of acutally "using" it."

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
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