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Good Copy Bad Copy - What Constitutes Fair Use?
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sabbey
River Chocobo


Member 139

Level 26.07

Mar 2006


Old Aug 21, 2007, 01:04 PM Local time: Aug 21, 2007, 10:04 AM #101 of 115
You're wrong. What you are talking about is over-valued, not over-priced. Price is set where a company can make the most profits. They could sell CDs for less and more people would buy them but they'd make less profit. I mean, this is economics 101 and I'm pretty sure that some of the biggest media companies in the world would have some people on their staffs who know a thing or two about economics.

Same goes for the retailers.
Over-valued? Over-priced? It ends up coming out to about the same thing IMO. That said, I still think in this case they will keep losing profits either way. If they were smart they would sell them cheaper and make less profits than they want, but more than they are or will by keep on gouging/inflating the cost to the consumer. This isn't a piracy issue, it's "the consumer doesn't want to pay X amount for a CD" issue...

Overall, it might be economics 101, but if more and more people stop buying CDs because of the current pricing how's that going to keep making the most profits. The only way that will work is if they start charging even more, $30 a disc? That would just get more people to not even buy the stuff even more than they are already skipping doing so and finding another hobby or entertainment choice for their dollar.

You assume too much.

1) We're in the first generation of people who steal all kinds of luxury items. Before pirated music, movies, TV shows, software, etc., you actually had to have physical copies. Sure, people bootlegged, but back then, it was also costly and time consuming.
Perhaps, but I still think you assume too much as well. Piracy isn't nearly the issue the entertainment industry and others claim it is, the numbers in more than one study have proven so. So, it's time to move on to find a way to get those that do pirate to move over to the legit item, another is to price the the legitimate item accordingly. It's doesn't have to be free or even even cheap, but to out price the item isn't smart either...

But a generation or two later, when everyone is accustomed to something other than the "real deal", almost no one would go for it. And those people would get snickered at, like the idiots who take their cars to the dealer after the warranty is up.

It's a product of an open-source culture.

2) If you cycle through a market where the price is always lower than what you can get from a manufacturer, and significantly lower...my example may not have been extreme enough. A person making a copy of a CD and selling it for $8 is almost all profit, while the record company has so many more costs. And, as I said, if one pirate sells them for $8, the next guy will sell them for $7. The record company wouldn't even have a chance to catch up to the market by the time the profit is barely pennies.
I can't argue with that, but from everything I hear the industry isn't hurting. So, they should stop crying and find a way to prevent piracy that doesn't screw over me, the legitimate consumer. That's all I am asking for! Maybe that's a pipe dream, but at this rate the industry won't have any consumers left within several years to decades if they don't at least work with people to find a compromise. All they want is the for us to have the "bend over and take it" mentality and buy their BS...

I guess that is big business for you, but, no thanks!

I was speaking idiomatically.
RacinReaver
Never Forget


Member 7

Level 44.22

Feb 2006


Old Aug 21, 2007, 01:48 PM Local time: Aug 21, 2007, 11:48 AM #102 of 115
Overall, it might be economics 101, but if more and more people stop buying CDs because of the current pricing how's that going to keep making the most profits. The only way that will work is if they start charging even more, $30 a disc? That would just get more people to not even buy the stuff even more than they are already skipping doing so and finding another hobby or entertainment choice for their dollar.
I think this cements the image of you not even understanding Economics 101.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
BlueMikey
TREAT?!?


Member 12

Level 35.70

Feb 2006


Old Aug 21, 2007, 02:18 PM Local time: Aug 21, 2007, 12:18 PM #103 of 115
Over-valued? Over-priced? It ends up coming out to about the same thing IMO.
Incorrect.

Quote:
If they were smart they would sell them cheaper and make less profits than they want
Incorrect.

Quote:
This isn't a piracy issue, it's "the consumer doesn't want to pay X amount for a CD" issue
Incorrect (if this were so, the prices would be lowered).

Quote:
The only way that will work is if they start charging even more, $30 a disc?
Absolutely incorrect.

Quote:
So, it's time to move on to find a way to get those that do pirate to move over to the legit item, another is to price the the legitimate item accordingly.
Again, the answer to people breaking the law willingly is not to change policy, it is to punish the lawbreakers. They are not breaking the law for any compelling reason other than to get cheap music, which is not akin to, say, sitting at the front of the bus as a black woman in the 60s.

Quote:
So, they should stop crying and find a way to prevent piracy that doesn't screw over me, the legitimate consumer.
Are you screwed over because you can't purchase other luxury items? If you work minimum wage and can't afford a new car, does that mean you are screwed over by the car companies for pricing their product accordingly?

You haven't indicated a single way in which you are "screwed over" other than things cost more than you value them at.

Quote:
the industry won't have any consumers left within several years to decades if they don't at least work with people to find a compromise.
I find that highly unlikely. "Because some people steal from us now, all people will steal from us in the future. If you don't bring people breaking the law back into the fold, then everyone will break the law. And it will all be the record companies' faults for not changing their policy to accommodate law breakers."




I mean, really, you don't seem to have any idea what the hell you are talking about. I think someone who even disagrees with me would think you are completely wrong.

FELIPE NO
and Brandy does her best to understand

Last edited by BlueMikey; Aug 21, 2007 at 02:47 PM.
Night Phoenix
The Last Great Hope™


Member 668

Level 20.50

Mar 2006


Old Aug 21, 2007, 06:14 PM Local time: Aug 21, 2007, 06:14 PM #104 of 115
Quote:
from everything I hear the industry isn't hurting.
Isn't hurting my ass. It's to the point where virtually all new acts have to fork over nearly a third of their touring revenue if they sign to a major label because revenue from CD sales has declined so much.

Most amazing jew boots
sabbey
River Chocobo


Member 139

Level 26.07

Mar 2006


Old Aug 24, 2007, 04:45 AM Local time: Aug 24, 2007, 01:45 AM #105 of 115
Sheesh, you are all making me feel like an idiot for bothering to post to begin with! Oh well, let me try to explain my thoughts. As naive as they may be...

I don't know, but making billions in profits seems pretty much like not hurting to me. If the artists signs the contract and they don't get enough of that money, well, that's their fault for signing a bad contract along with those who were greedy enough to not give them a better deal to begin with. That said, I am not sure I understand the issue that you mean here. What, that they could make more? Well, everyone could make more money, but there's no way to prove that they lost X amount when their own numbers typically don't match those done by surveyors outside the industry. If anything, the numbers I have seen touted online show piracy has little effect if at all, but to piss them off for making billions less than the billions they already do. Not that I blame them, mind you. But, not everyone thinks making more is necessarily a good indicator because how can you say that Pirate A would have bought it and Pirate B wouldn't have? You can't, even though they try to put out numbers that make it appear that way. But, what do I know, I am naive and who knows whether either side is worth believing the numbers they spew forth. I am just saying there's contradictions all over the place on just how bad they have it.

As for economics 101, I never took that class, always thought it meant what's best for business, so to speak. I guess I am wrong, and am big enough to say so. Sorry!

I guess I figured, that if selling for less could (I'd assume) realistically earn more profits from having people who wouldn't have purchased otherwise do so (which it possibly could in today's marketplace, piracy or no piracy) well, how is that not good for the industry and all involved? Hell, the whole pay-to-download services could be utilized much better. Though, it seems they are against change, whether it's from piracy (which I am not even really taking into account to be honest) or just changing the medium to one that people would consider buying more than they currently do with CDs. Really, I don't get it, wouldn't that be a good thing? Maybe I am giving people too much credit to think they too would buy the music if the price was at the price point the industry said they would sell for or even slightly higher.

Either way, this is all opinion based from what I have read and having talked with other people over the years. I'll be the first to admit I am not fully aware of all the facts, but I do get tired of facts thrown around here and elsewhere just as blindly by both sides. Sorry if I came across as thinking I knew better than the rest, didn't mean it that way. Overall, there has already been links earlier that show some of what I was trying to get at, I guess some just can't get past the piracy issue. Since I am not even using that as my basis for my point and most seem to be, I might as well keep quite.

Oh and BTW, I don't know about anyone else, but I do think we "are" so-called, screwed over, by copy-protection and the other areas that the industry uses that make lawfully backing-up people's legitimately purchased CDs impossible. I don't buy protected discs, but many seem to have tried at least in the past to hide the fact if they have such protections. So, I think I and others have good reason to feel that way, the Sony Rootkit anyone?

Regardless though, I don't care if it's a luxury item or not, when I pay the manufacturer for their item, on sale or not, there should be no extra hassles to come along with it in my view. I bought it legitimately, that should be the only thing that matters. Some might disagree I guess, but money spent is still money spent. Basically, there's no need to alienate those who are the reason you make the money you do. Oh well, take that as you well...

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Last edited by sabbey; Aug 24, 2007 at 04:53 AM.
Bradylama
Banned


Member 18

Level 51.14

Feb 2006


Old Aug 24, 2007, 06:12 AM Local time: Aug 24, 2007, 06:12 AM #106 of 115
Quote:
I don't know, but making billions in profits seems pretty much like not hurting to me.
You're suggesting that the secret to success is to sell at a loss. Products don't actually become cheaper until they've achieved sufficient economies of scale, and producing music isn't exactly as simple as producing a widget.

Quote:
As for economics 101, I never took that class,
Well, obviously.

There's nowhere I can't reach.
BlueMikey
TREAT?!?


Member 12

Level 35.70

Feb 2006


Old Aug 24, 2007, 10:31 AM Local time: Aug 24, 2007, 08:31 AM #107 of 115
On a side note, we should be there day #1 if he ever opens a store.

"Come on in neighbors! I bought all this stuff and I'm selling it back to you for cheaper than I paid! Yeeeeeeehaw, open Sundays."

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
and Brandy does her best to understand
sabbey
River Chocobo


Member 139

Level 26.07

Mar 2006


Old Aug 24, 2007, 12:58 PM Local time: Aug 24, 2007, 09:58 AM #108 of 115
That's not what I am saying, well, it's not what I meant at least!

I understand what you all are saying, but still, assuming people would buy more CDs if they were at a cheaper price, how's that taking a loss if you have way more sales? That's all I am asking and no one seems to want to answer that. Oh well, no point in continuing since I think selling at $10-13 would be fine and you don't.

Most amazing jew boots

Last edited by sabbey; Aug 24, 2007 at 01:18 PM.
BlueMikey
TREAT?!?


Member 12

Level 35.70

Feb 2006


Old Aug 24, 2007, 03:46 PM Local time: Aug 24, 2007, 01:46 PM #109 of 115
Cost to produce a single item: $4

Price --- Buyers --- Total Profit
$4.50 --- 25,000 --- $12,500
$5 --- 24,000 --- $24,000
$6 --- 20,000 --- $40,000
$7 --- 15,000 --- $45,000
$8 --- 8,000 --- $24,000

Most amazing jew boots
and Brandy does her best to understand
Night Phoenix
The Last Great Hope™


Member 668

Level 20.50

Mar 2006


Old Aug 24, 2007, 09:14 PM Local time: Aug 24, 2007, 09:14 PM #110 of 115
Quote:
I understand what you all are saying, but still, assuming people would buy more CDs if they were at a cheaper price, how's that taking a loss if you have way more sales?
It's called the law of diminishing returns.

You'd have to sell proportionally so many more CDs to reach that same margin of profit.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
sabbey
River Chocobo


Member 139

Level 26.07

Mar 2006


Old Oct 27, 2007, 07:52 PM Local time: Oct 27, 2007, 04:52 PM #111 of 115
Sorry for the late reply, but thanks for the info. I am generally interested in this topic and from everything I am told elsewhere, they seem to think differently. Regardless, I'll take your word for it...

Here's hoping a way can be found to bring prices down, yet not hurt anyone in the process!

FELIPE NO
Bradylama
Banned


Member 18

Level 51.14

Feb 2006


Old Oct 27, 2007, 08:56 PM Local time: Oct 27, 2007, 08:56 PM #112 of 115
Dude, there was no excuse for this whatsoever. Don't practice necromancy.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?
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