[PC] Decline of PC Gaming?

Originally Posted by Sexninja

Crysis
Fear 2(inevitable)

Not even out yet. What the fuck. Unless you downloaded it.

PC gaming has lost its innovation overtime. Titles like Clive Barker's Undying are some examples of what I talk about. Something that has a good story and not necessarily mean have a multiplayer aspect. Another is Deus Ex. I mean, there's quite the good story and all that, something that has been lost in Invisible War because the developers of the second just decided to stick with anything cyber and dystopian, something people have seen way beforehand.

Another recent release is Rome: Total War. That is one of the finest RTS games I have ever had the fortune of playing. No building up of soldiers, no buildings, no superweapons and no weapon upgrades. Just legions of soldiers/archers/cavalry/siege weaponry and you do whatever it takes to win in an open field/mountain/settlement etc. Classic.

Lot of games have potential sure, but it's what we've seen beforehand. It just has an improved interface/graphics etc.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Something I want to underline, because I don't think people have recognized it for what it is.

The vast majority of DOS and windows-based games operate under current windows operating systems. Those that don't usually have exe fixes or emulators available to let them play on a windows system.

Just because people play games that came out years before doesn't mean PC gaming is in decline. It just means people can play those games much more easily, and hell, if they're good, more power to those people.

The same option didn't exist with consoles up until PS2, so it's only recently that console developers have been catching on. The question is, how much of their resources are they willing to put into backwards compatibility?

Now whether or not Microsoft decides to continue their support for a backlog of games is pretty much irrelevant. The fact that this question even exists should be a reminder to everyone here that console gaming is competitive in nature, and the companies are only willing to give so much attention to something that earns them little or no profit.

By comparison, windows gaming is very often community-oriented, and will often foster groups devoted to seeing that games continue to be playable into the forseeable future. I might really want to play Full Throttle on windows XP, and normally, I wouldn't be able to. But because I'm using SCUMMV, I can. This kind of universality is something the PC offers that can't really be equalled by consoles in their current state.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Anyone who calls the most repetitive, dull, and generic FPS of all time the "mother of all FPS" clearly has no business discussing the subject of video games, but I'll go ahead and humor you for a minute.

In addition to some of the games already mentioned like Spore, KOTOR, and Black and White, let's not forget:

-The Civilization series (Turn-based strategies are vastly different from RTS's, don't even start that)
-The Sims series (Aside from the SimCity games, I'm not a big fan of them, but a lot people are)
-The Battlefield series (a hybrid of FPS and RTS)

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Even Oblivion developers made the controls more friendly on 360 version,

What. Okay, ignoring the fact that Oblivion was dumbed down and crippled by its 360 version, any man who claims that playing a first person game with a controller rather than a keyboard and mouse is either lying or mentally impaired. I mean, hmmmmm, I wonder why I can only map spells to the numbers 1-8? Why not 9 and 0? Hell, why not any key I'm not using? Oh, that's right, it's because the Xbox 360's second analog stick can only point in 8 directions.

And lastly, I'll be damned if I sit on my hands and let you group Half-Life 2 with all those other shooters. On its own, it's an incredibly fun and inventive game, but that's not even what I want to talk about. It's all about the mods. Well, namely, one mod - Garry's Mod. It's sheer, unadulterated fun, and easily one of the most entertaining games I've ever played.

For example, in how many games can you make these? (Note the banner and the entry. And okay, I've been meaning to remake the dance with a static camera and a bit of bloom lighting on, but my point still stands). Or, for that matter, in how many games can do do almost any fucking thing you want? I rest my case.

I was speaking idiomatically.

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When i said VARIETY i meant more GENRE'S.More than 3 i.e RTS,MMORPG and FPS.

So how about simulators (which encompass a wide variety of titles from flight simulators, to business, to racing, to space sims, to the Sims family), or Turb-Based Strategy, or 4x games, or galactic exploration, CRPGs, Adventure games, puzzle games, tactical combat. The list goes on and on and on.

And since you seem confident enough to bring up future titles, what do you have to say about Spore? A game where you determine the evolution of a species from a single-celled organism in the primordial soup to a galaxy-faring race?

Don't talk to me about variety or innovation. XIII was one of the most underrated FPSes to date, but I suppose you wouldn't know anything about that.

As for your wide range of genres:

Zelda series. Action RPG
Metroid prime. FPS/platformer
MGS series Stealth shooter (hello Thief)
"Fighting games like DOA,Tekken,SoulCaliber,you cant even begin to imagine playing fighting games on PC...lol" I could if I owned a gamepad. Too bad there isn't a market for it, though, since fighters are about as interchangeable as your child's kidneys. Soul Calibur and Virtua Fighter 4 are great games swimming in an ocean of bile.
GT series. Racing sim.
PGR series. More racing.
Mario. Platformer.
Jak and Daxter,Ratchet series. Platformers.
HALO series. First Person Shooter
FinalFantasy series. Calling this an RPG is a laugh. Calling the genre innovative is HILARIOUS. Steambot and FFXII are exceptions to the rule, not the example.

So aside from Fighters and Platformers, how much genre variety does the console honestly have?

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And now every developer is considering 360 first and ideal platform.
Id software and Valve for example.

Bull fucking shit. Unless you call lacklustre support a consideration for the 360's superiority, then Valve and Id are all up in that.

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From creativity i meant games like ICO,Shadow of the Colossus,Katamari to name a few.

And they are, indeed a few.

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And BTW, Console library(of good games) is way bigger than PC's.

Arguing the dick size of game libraries is an excercize in futility as it is, since people are only going to buy the games they're actually interested in.

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PC lacks japanese support.

But it does have South Korean support.

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Wii and its remote is another SLAP on PC.That what i call gaming.

Yeah, a controller gimmick that will make your arms tired is a surefire slap in the face of the PC market. Nevermind the DS stylus. I wouldn't expect you to actually formulate an intelligent rebuttal, though.

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'PC is dead because No gameplay innovations'.

You're a fucking idiot.

Bring this trash again and you will be banned from this thread. It would be different if you had any clue what you were talking about, but your general idiocy and failing English is coming off as borderline trolling.

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The last thing you can do(once you are cornered) is to ban.
This shows how cheap you can get, and further makes my arguments more meaningful and potent.They are hurting you.

You call me troll here is some research work..lol.
Go to Gamerankings.com and find out the top three best rated games ever.
I hope this is not trolling.
All top three games are console games.

How much you can neglect/Ignore???

Console rulz.

DeusEx too ruled,but it was back then,yeah i totally agree back then PC was ruling,PC used to cover all genre's but now shame.

I am objective unlike Brady,who is intolerant of anything different from his own likeness.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Sexninja

I am objective

Laffo.

Has it occurred to you that in his original post, he made a few of the same claims you have, he just didn't make blanket statements?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Sexninja

The last thing you can do(once you are cornered) is to ban.
This shows how cheap you can get, and further makes my arguments more meaningful and potent.They are hurting you.

You call me troll here is some research work..lol.
Go to Gamerankings.com and find out the top three best rated games ever.
I hope this is not trolling.
All top three games are console games.

How much you can neglect/Ignore???

Console rulz.

DeusEx too ruled,but it was back then,yeah i totally agree back then PC was ruling,PC used to cover all genre's but now shame.

I am objective unlike Brady,who is intolerant of anything different from his own likeness.

Did anybody else catch that?

Actually, Console seems to be on the decline too......considering the top games are an N64 game, a DC game, and a PS1 Game...

Additionally, at 1up, here's their best at E3.....

Best Action Game: Lost Planet (XBOX360)
Best Adventure Game: Twilight Princess (GC)
Best Shooting Game: Quake Wars (PC)
Best Racing Game: Excite Truck (Wii)
Best RPG Game: Hellgate: London (PC)
Best Simulation Game: Spore (PC)
Best Strategy Game: Supreme Commander (PC)
Best Fighting Game: Virtua Fighter 5 (PS3)
Best Visuals: Crysis(PC)
Best Game Trailer: MGS4 (PS3)
Most Original: Wii Sports (Wii)
Best Sports: NCAA Football 2007 (Multi-Console)

So yeah, that's quite an impressive showing for the PC. I'm excited.....

Jam it back in, in the dark.

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I am objective

Liar. The only thing you've hurt is my intelligence. I hope you enjoy not wasting your time and ours.

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Originally Posted by StarmanDX

Anyone who calls the most repetitive, dull, and generic FPS of all time the "mother of all FPS" clearly has no business discussing the subject of video games, but I'll go ahead and humor you for a minute.

Word. Halo and its sequel are severely overrated. Exactly what did it have to offer that hadn't been done before in a FPS? I honestly would like to know.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Frat appeal. And a gamepad control scheme that didn't make people ARGH FURIOUS!

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Bradylama

Frat appeal. And a gamepad control scheme that didn't make people ARGH FURIOUS!

Seconded, while I don't hate the game itself (actually, I like the game, though it is somewhat repetetive), I really can't consider it "mother of all FPS". I really don't even see how it got the Frat appeal. Beforehand, it was Goldeneye 007 for the N64, and for that, at least it got some decent controls for being a console FPS. (The first Console FPS too, I believe) So that gets credit for pushing FPS into Consoles. Now that it's already there, Halo really hasn't done anything. If anything, it just proves how much better PC FPS games are.

EDIT: BTW, I'm thinking about checking out the Simulation genre in PC gaming with The Sims 2. Any opinions? thoughts? suggestions?

I was speaking idiomatically.

You know, one thing I would like to point out is that a major reason that some people seem to think console games have the drop on PC games is simply because many great PC games simply don't get nearly as much exposure. They don't get the hype, they don't get the marketing, and many times they don't even get attention from the game reporting industry.

I just spent four hours on Sunday having a blast playing Every Extend on my PC, and that's just a little freeware game. I never even heard of it until someone here at GFF pointed it out. That's just an example, but there are tons of great, underexposed games like this for PC.

Sexninja's list just shows how correct I am. His list is simply full of "popular" PC games; many of which are simply used to test the limits of new video cards. If only he knew FPS is just the tip of the iceburg. I could list games, but I'm really not even a big PC gamer, so I'm better leaving that to the pros. Yet, I already know the platform is awash in creativity.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Not only that, but the PC exclusive journalism is all garbage. Have you read PC Gamer lately? What a bunch of self-fellating hogwash.

As for the mother of all FPSes, Wolfenstein 3D is the Grandaddy. How do you even quantify parental connotations for games anyways? I guess you could say that Halo is the mother of console FPSes since so many people are attempting to follow its formula. GJ Bungie.

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Of all FPS games, why the hell would everybody follow Halo's lead? Don't get me wrong, I think Halo is a good game, but there are plenty of other better FPS games that people can follow. Half-Life 2 is a good example, as is Quake 4 (some people may disagree with me here).

Also, by the E3 titles above, I'm tempted to venture into Simulation games with The Sims 2. Yay or nay?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

That depends entirely on how much you mind spending a lot of time acheiving nothing but the generation of success or misery for a bunch of simulated people that aren't you.

Simulated life is fun to toy around with for awhile, but much like real life it gets hella boring. You could have an excellent time creating bizarre estates and being a sadistic asshole to your sims, but that's an investment of time that doesn't strike a cord at least for me.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Meh....I dunno...I guess I'll give it a try at least.

Speaking of which, there aren't any Fallout type games out anywhere or coming out anytime soon is there? I was a big fan of the game.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Kaleb.G

You know, one thing I would like to point out is that a major reason that some people seem to think console games have the drop on PC games is simply because many great PC games simply don't get nearly as much exposure. They don't get the hype, they don't get the marketing, and many times they don't even get attention from the game reporting industry.

For console games that got a ton of hypes before its release followed by a huge public disappointment hurts even more than PC games that don't get hyped but still have good sales...

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

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Speaking of which, there aren't any Fallout type games out anywhere or coming out anytime soon is there? I was a big fan of the game.

Well, Fallout 3 is going to have the same setting, but whether or not Bethesda can actually create a game like Fallout we have yet to see.

There are plenty of post-apoc games that are currently in development, and Bioshock will feature a lot of 40's art deco and a decaying environment, albeit under the ocean.

As for games with Fallout-like gameplay though? Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura had the same roleplaying element, but its combat sucked donkey donk. (Still a great game though) Any other game like it doesn't really exist, and since Troika bit the bullet after Vampire, the chances of there being another one are close to none.

Silent Storm had tactical grid-based combat like Fallout, but it's on a 3D plane, and the combat rules are much more detailed and quite frankly, awesome. It's not a roleplaying game, though. Hammer & Sickle tried to be the Silent Storm roleplaying game, but it had little to no roleplaying element at all. In any case, Silent Storm is what I consider to be the epitomy of squad-based TBS.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by yangxu

For console games that got a ton of hypes before its release followed by a huge public disappointment hurts even more than PC games that don't get hyped but still have good sales...

You're not too bright are you? Hype sells games before they come out. If the final product sucks, it'll still sell because of the hype. Regardless if the product can live up to it or not.

See: Halo 2, Black, Fable, Devil May Cry 2, FF Crystal Chronicles, and so on.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by devilmaycry

WTF?
A low end PC costs 700€.
A moderate PC costs 1500€.
A good PC costs 3500€.
A high end PC costs 8000€.

A excelent PC costs over 15000€.

You doubt? Just go to Alienware choose workstations and start pumping it up, before you kow it the bill will be in $14000
Of course this is not a gaming PC but a work PC (as in Pixar like work PCs).

And I take console over PC any day because PC games are mostly stratagy and FPS.

Your forgetting the games for PS3 will probably cost $70 per title and about buying extra controllers for the PS3 and any other gimmick they might have for you to get to play it properly.

Also what I meant is to say you can buy a PC capable of playing every game on the market right now for about less than $500 + $150 (someone forgot how many stores offer rebates on machines!) for video card with a god-damned monitor, DVD-Burner, and printer. That is much more valuable functions than a Xbox 360, PS3, or Wii can offer... Console gaming has been recently suffering too many me too titles syndrome... caused by companies like Rockstar, Square-Enix, and Konami!!! No one wants to play anything original anymore... and it was just dumb luck that Katamari caught on.. oh wait that was because it released dirt cheap...

This is coming from a console gamer though : Console games, like PC games haven't progressed much of anywhere since about 2003 so it's been the same bullshit over and over... how many times can companies recycle the same story for their RPG with different characters and settings? How many Tekken/Virtua Fighter games must we play before they resemble real fighting and no air-floater techniques?, How many sports titles must one play to realize it is the same game as last years release with updated rosters?

This is why console gaming has come to almost a hault... even those music games that breathed a fresh breath of air in are getting old (DDR anyone?)

Well if anything the Wii looks close to something new but it's basically just bringing what's been available in Asian arcades for years home...

I'm just saying $600 for a PS3 isn't worth playing games that could've easily been done on an older console with less impressive graphics but the same gameplay.

The jump from 8, 16, 32, and 128 bit all were a leap forward... with each one we experienced games not possible on a console before... now it's just a dead end because everything has been done... so we get sequels... and sequels of sequels... and failed shitty games and maybe 2 games a year worth playing... that is not worth the price of these new consoles... because I can say the same about the current PC... and updates to a PC don't cost as much as a new console... especially since the games for PC don't really take advantage of those video cards that I consider overkill...

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by PLUMP COCK

You're not too bright are you? Hype sells games before they come out. If the final product sucks, it'll still sell because of the hype. Regardless if the product can live up to it or not.

See: Halo 2, Black, Fable, Devil May Cry 2, FF Crystal Chronicles, and so on.

Black didn't sell that well, and games like DMC2 or FFCC sell because of the names they bear, not just the hype they receive. I don't recall DMC being hyped much before it's released, yet it sold millions.

FELIPE NO

Yeah, the names they have attached to them automatically generate hype for them. No one would have cared for CC if it wasn't hyped up as being a Final Fantasy game first. DMC2 was hyped up because it was the sequel to the (quite good) original.

In many cases, attaching a well known name to something is practically the same thing as free hype.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Sexninja

Games are not about souping up existng formula like you customize your car thats one vehicle
Its about giving you entirely new dimesnion of interactivity and concepts.An entirely new vehicle.

Does Reggie even play games? Gamers don't want a completely different game with the same name (re: Final Fantasy (which is living on hype, by at least 40%) but what they do want is more of the same, yet improved. However they will go along with whichever way the ball bounces, on the mark of the developers' eye.

Gamers want sequels, not something different completely yet with "2" or mild material relating to the original. When it's a game which isn't story based, the same atmosphere from the original game should still be there.

Castlevania (2D) is a perfect example of what I'm getting at. The atmosphere (and don't tell me for a minute that 2D games don't have atmosphere) of them were all the same in some shape or form. The intentions and plot were still there. And overall, it was a sequel. Despite some of the sequels being rather poor, it still retained the factors which made it one. (And made up for it by making Aria and Dawn, which are instant wins.)

Jam it back in, in the dark.

You have an intresting post here so I'll awnser.

Originally Posted by Kuhazan

Your forgetting the games for PS3 will probably cost $70 per title and about buying extra controllers for the PS3 and any other gimmick they might have for you to get to play it properly.

All XBox 360 games cost 70€ and PS3 will cost that much aswell, but that's because these companies are selling the console below their production cost. And because they like to rip us some bucks
Plus PC games are only this cheap because developers don't have to pay licences to develop for it like on consoles, I guess you have to thank MS for not charging licenses on DirectX usage...

Originally Posted by Kuhazan

This is coming from a console gamer though : Console games, like PC games haven't progressed much of anywhere since about 2003 so it's been the same bullshit over and over... how many times can companies recycle the same story for their RPG with different characters and settings? How many Tekken/Virtua Fighter games must we play before they resemble real fighting and no air-floater techniques?, How many sports titles must one play to realize it is the same game as last years release with updated rosters?

This is why console gaming has come to almost a hault... even those music games that breathed a fresh breath of air in are getting old (DDR anyone?)

This is a reflexion of mankind itself, not every single person on the planet invents a new device/formula/whatever. Infact only a very small number of persons do it and therefor only a small number of game developers 'invent' new games, absolutely nothing wrong in this behaviour.

Asides this obvious limit there's another not so obvious one, you can't continously improve/inovate/whatever, this is how people except things to be this days but it's obviously impossible, so dispite all your frustration/rage/whatever you'll have to accept that games have stabilized and that there wont be any major breakthrough in the video gaming world like there used to be forever.
I always like to compare it to other games and objects, there wasn't any change in the chess game in 1500 years and yet people still play it and enjoy it. Oter example is backgammon that might be 5000 years old and we still have fun with it today.

Originally Posted by Kuhazan

I'm just saying $600 for a PS3 isn't worth playing games that could've easily been done on an older console with less impressive graphics but the same gameplay.

The jump from 8, 16, 32, and 128 bit all were a leap forward... with each one we experienced games not possible on a console before... now it's just a dead end because everything has been done... so we get sequels... and sequels of sequels... and failed shitty games and maybe 2 games a year worth playing... that is not worth the price of these new consoles... because I can say the same about the current PC... and updates to a PC don't cost as much as a new console... especially since the games for PC don't really take advantage of those video cards that I consider overkill...

This has to do with perception of details no? After a certain point common gamers just won't notice diference from one game to it's new sequel dispite the diferences being there. Think of this like music files, to most of us MP3@160Kbps sound the same as a CD yet it's defenitely not the same sound quality. This is because we just aren't trained to notice the diferences like a audiophile is, and like in music only a very few of us are 'graphicphily', that is able to notice small details on games like better floor textures or more detailed background objects.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by devilmaycry

This is a reflexion of mankind itself, not every single person on the planet invents a new device/formula/whatever. Infact only a very small number of persons do it and therefor only a small number of game developers 'invent' new games, absolutely nothing wrong in this behaviour.

Asides this obvious limit there's another not so obvious one, you can't continously improve/inovate/whatever, this is how people except things to be this days but it's obviously impossible, so dispite all your frustration/rage/whatever you'll have to accept that games have stabilized and that there wont be any major breakthrough in the video gaming world like there used to be forever.
I always like to compare it to other games and objects, there wasn't any change in the chess game in 1500 years and yet people still play it and enjoy it. Oter example is backgammon that might be 5000 years old and we still have fun with it today.

I'm going to go outside the PC scope for a second to respond to this....that is not to say it's not there for PC games, but I'm a bit better with examples on consoles...

I'd have to say I somewhat disagree here. While very few people are truly innovative, those who are tend to be stifled by those who are greedy, or those people that are innovative tend to have greed take them over. It's not that they don't want to be innovative, it's that they want money. It's already happened in the music industry. There are some artists who are not allowed to release songs because they're "not what the public wants to here" according to the publishers. They don't give a damn about what the artist wants to display, they only display what gets those greedy bastards money. Same with the video game industry, or so it seems. Most games that come out sell well due to massive hype or attachment to a famous name (Final Fantasy, Madden, DMC, whatever....or at least everything that has a number after it). I mean, seriously, most companies who have a successful game going will tend to make a sequel to it. These can be good or bad, depending on how much liberty they're willing to take. I'll be the first to agree that sometimes, some traditional games are always fun, as I'm a fan of Final Fantasy I - IX. But after a few iterations, it tends to become old. Final Fantasy kept it relatively fresh with new systems (Class Change in V, Esper System in VI, Materia System in VII, GF System in VIII, and Weapon/AP system in IX). This I can respect because it feels relatively new as opposed to Madden 95 through Madden 07. It's probably a bad game to use as an example, but it's the one that most clearly illustrates my point. Halo/Halo 2 play the exact same way, so while the first one is genuinely fun at times, the second one sucks balls in terms of new stuff. Fighting games also suffer from this, referring to reiterations of fighting games from a single series. I don't think the gameplay for Tekken ever changed from the original up to Tekken 5. Granted, I'm not a fan of Tekken and have never played much of the games, and am somewhat Biased, but still. Racing games also somewhat suffer from this to some extent, depending on which game you're talking about. Mario Kart series has kept things relatively fresh with the addition of new weapons, new hazards, new courses, and even new systems to keep things fresh. I'm talking about the jump from Super Mario Kart to Mario Kart 64 (3d upgrade, dropping the usage of coins pickup, dropped the feather pickup, added variations to the original pickups, a drift system, etc.) and from Mario Kart 64 to Mario Kart: Double Dash!! (an upgraded drift/powerslide system, new pickups/upgrades to pickups, system of tag-team racing (for better or for worse), new courses, now modes of multiplayer battle, etc.) and hell, even from Mario Kart: Double Dash!! to Mario Kart DS (again, new weapons, new drifting/snake system, new single player modes, I can't say much else since I haven't played this game yet.) Now you got games like Gran Turismo that start off pretty nice and then kinda decline in quality as you go. I'm not sure about that since I've only played the first one and seen the last one they released. And that last one they released, you didn't even race. Maybe I'm mistaken that Gran Turismo is a Racing Sim, but I previously thought and went into it thinking it was a racing game. And if games have plateaued already, I guess it's time for Nintendo to bail us out again, with their concept of changing how you play the game with it's new system, Wii.

Additionally, I think your chess arguement is moot at this point. Chess is a single game that hasn't changed at all. Of course it's still fun. If you took Super Mario 64 now and played it 1000 years from now, it'd still be just as fun, maybe graphically inferior at that time, but the fun factor is still there. I'm talking about a series of games that have evolved. A more apt example would be new card games that keep coming out. All the variations of poker can suffice as examples of what I mean. Card games in general have evolved over time. New games are constantly being made, so creativity hasn't been stifled just yet.

Originally Posted by devilmaycry

This has to do with perception of details no? After a certain point common gamers just won't notice diference from one game to it's new sequel dispite the diferences being there. Think of this like music files, to most of us MP3@160Kbps sound the same as a CD yet it's defenitely not the same sound quality. This is because we just aren't trained to notice the diferences like a audiophile is, and like in music only a very few of us are 'graphicphily', that is able to notice small details on games like better floor textures or more detailed background objects.

I think that's what we're trying to avoid, or else who in their right mind would buy new games if that happened?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.