Of Adlib, MIDI and VGM ports (split)

Again, not to put too fine a point on it but Rimo's Adlib TIM rips aren't a 'game rip', at least in the sense that it's not how the original game audio sounds.

And Eriol- cool, you're from Indonesia? Alway nice to see someone from either my country or Indonesia.

- Spike

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Spikey

Again, not to put too fine a point on it but Rimo's Adlib TIM rips aren't a 'game rip', at least in the sense that it's not how the original game audio sounds.

And Eriol- cool, you're from Indonesia? Alway nice to see someone from either my country or Indonesia.

- Spike

That's how the Adlib version sounds, and that's how most people know it considering the price of MIDI devices when it was released ... Don't really get your point there. =/

There's nowhere I can't reach.

At the time, General MIDI sound cards were affordable, and although not as good as the Roland GM, were still far better than the FM Synth.

Either way, we're talking about now, not 1992

Composers had to take the MIDI file, which they'd composed for General MIDI (usually, the SC-55), and change it (remove notes), a process called "dumbing down" by most composers I've spoken to, including the composers of this game itself.

Basically, the inferior sound hardware of FM Synthesis based cards (less polyphony, tone generation etc) meant that General MIDI files had to be fundamentally changed.

The bottom line is that any time Rimo (or anyone else) rips a MIDI file recorded from the Adlib synths, where the game was composed for MT-32 or SC-55 (GM), it:
a. won't sound like the composer originally intended; and
b. won't necessarily give a good indication of what the piece originally sounded like (for example, whether it's an acoustic guitar or a synthpad, it'll become some form of FM synth lead).


Anyway. My point is just that 'game rips' should be what the soundtrack was intended to sound like. Regardless of whether back in the day someone heard it differently (worse) because they couldn't afford the gear, that's not the point. A game rip is (supposedly) a true representation of an original score. FM Synthesis did have soundtracks composed for it, but Sierra's weren't any of them.



My subpoint was that Adlib FM synths don't handle jazz at all well, especially when the music isn't specially made for the synth. Listen to a TIM piece with a SC or even a GM sound card, then the Adlib equivalent and you'll know what I mean.

Regards,
- Spike

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I agree on the fact we can argue on what the original compositions were meant to be for the composer itself, but disagree on the fact this has to be held as the one and only "true face" of the work in question.

Reminds me of those people who insist anything composed by Bach and not played on the original baroque instruments is infamy. I call this love for musicology at this point, but not love for music.

The original author's view is important, but in the end, as with any artistic creation, it's what each and every listeners feel and see in the muic that matters.

And yeah, aside from all those ideological nitpicking, Rimo's Adlib recording still stick perfectly to the Game Rip definition. Something MIDI recordings is borderline on, considering the difference from one soundfont to another. =)

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

I agree and disagree. There is only one "true face" with MIDI composition soundtracks (ignoring niche tastes such as Rimo's, which is perfectly valid of course), unless the soundtrack had specific support for multiple devices (as opposed to the 'dumbing down' support mentioned earlier).

I love rearrangements as much as the next person, too. Or multiple versions.

But, there's a difference between rearranging and changing a MIDI file to suit a low-end synth. While I agree there may be merit in hearing the files particularly suited for a FM Synth (that is, someone tailoring the files for that synth), I don't think there is when we're talking about someone (not the composer) who's had to change the composer's intended sound to fit the box of FM Synth, or for that matter PC Speaker beeps and boops. The job with GM->Adlib was simply to make the amount of notes allowable, not to tailor it as I hinted at before.


Anyway. If you want to be technical, anything recorded based on a game's soundtrack is a 'game rip'. But that definition is unsatisfactory to me- what if I record a PC Speaker version of the GM-based and CD redbook Betrayal at Krondor- is that a gamerip? (Chose that example 'cause I saw you listening to it the other day Niki. ) Perhaps calling Rimo's rip of The Incredible Machine, say, "The Incredible Machine (PC Adlib Gamerip)" as opposed to the same without Adlib might be a way of solving the issue.

Either way, I'm sorry to change this thread's course, and mods are welcome to split this.

- Spike

I was speaking idiomatically.

Oooh but we totally agree on the fact things need to be properly categorized. If you were to browse my VGM folders, you'd actually notice I use the term "Game Rip" only when a ripping process actually took place. I also use the terms Recording, Redbook, Log etc ... where they are due, and always mention the audio source when several were available (Adlib, MIDI, MIDI MT32, OPN, OPNA etc ...).

But hey I understand not everyone want or even *need* to worry about stuff like that, so I go fof the general "Game Rip" definition in community discussions.

I also agree the issue is kind of different when there is an acknowledged downgrade process. I still stand by the fact that I consider the composer's opinion of his own work should not matter in the listener's appreciation of the music.

But we're mixing tech and feelings there. Always a difficult mix. =p

(Splitting. Let's see whats others have to say on that ^_^)

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Oh my, and I said I didn't want to restart the debate...

First, about eriol33's request, he mentioned in the first post that he is looking for jazz in old games (and thus, old "limited" sound). That's why I mainly suggested AdLib tunes, and pushed that version of TIM's soundtrack forward, instead of the enhanced/MIDI one. If he would have been simply looking for jazz, then I would have suggested the version that sounds like real instruments, like you did, but I felt it wasn't the right context here. However, if eriol would actually prefer the more advanced version, then we should provide that one.

My definition of a "game rip (of music)" is, in a very simple way, the music ripped from a game, as opposed to game music coming from an official album & the like. So, I use the term loosely and it encompasses all music sources, yet I usually make a disctinction for redbook audio, but still consider it a sub-category of "game rip". When I have rips of different sources from a same game, I usually identify it in the folder's name (i.e. AdLib ~ PC Game rip / MT-32 ~ PC Game Rip, etc.). As for the rips I'm doing myself, I don't specify that AdLib is the source in the folder/title, but I do mention it in the NFO file. Since there aren't much PC game rips from old games floating around, and that not many people actually care about them, I believe this isn't misleading enough to be a problem. And anyway, it is, just like an MT-32 & the like sources, a "PC game rip".

I agree that when PC games started to feature sound options higher than AdLib, the later was most probably kept for support, since not everybody had the latest sound card or sound module. Actually, the majority didn't have them and I'd like to think old PC gamers are more familiar with AdLib soundtracks than with MT-32 ones. Does this make AdLib the "real" sound? No. So MT-32 and the rest are the "real" ones? Closer, yes, but not completely it either. You see, I consider that neither is the true "king", all sound settings avaible shared the "throne", but one might have been bigger and thus occupied a larger part of it, but the others were still there and were still used. While the composer might have composed the music to be played by a MT-32 (and GM cards in general), he also had to keep in mind that not everybody had one, and the other settings didn't have to be neglected. Obviously, the music elements had to be brought to a lower level of sound and adjusted by removal ("dumbing down" as you said), but the result, at least for AdLib, was still very enjoyable (for the majority of games). Considering AdLib's level to be in the same league as PC speaker is a really cheap shot; it's a versatile sound chip and, while being synthetic, it could still reproduce various instruments and by this, allow representation of different music genres. Sure, never on the same level as GM, but it's not devoid of any qualities either. It has a "retro" sound compared to GM, and I've had the chance to speak with several people that actually prefer that, and this wasn't in one of my dreams. This also apply to VGM in general, with chiptunes and other retro sounds being still something many people have a soft spot for (i.e. see the "Best Chiptunes Contest" here at GFF). Unfortunately, this creates a division in old PC game music fans. You might think I'm a pro-AdLib, but I actually can enjoy MT-32 as well, but in this situation, AdLib is brought down, and I have to stick with it somehow.

I concur that a MT-32 rip should be considered more like the "true" game rip when the composer has intended it to be the main music setting, but I completely disagree that an AdLib rip is not worthy of the title (or even worth existing). Calling it a "PC AdLib Rip" would be more accurate, but the other would have to be "PC MT-32 Rip". AdLib is still an original game sound, and it was avaible in the settings, but I understand what you mean about that. However, if you are so inspired by an "original" sound, I wonder why you have, for the Legend of Kyrandia rip, actually enhanced it (the choir, for example)?

As you should have guessed, I don't own a MT-32 or any other modules, but do own a Sound Blaster 16 card (with the AdLib chip), so my only possibility to rip old PC games is by using it. I could buy a MT-32, but I feel like there isn't enough games I want to record the music from with that source to be worth it, and most games were already ripped by either Quest Studios, you or the few other module owners around. I certainly have a bias towards AdLib, since I've grown up with its sound, so I actually can enjoy the recordings I'm doing with it, and can only hope others will too. Sometimes, I could wait for someone with a MT-32 to rip a game instead of doing an AdLib one, but in the end, it could never happen or take several years. So, I do what I can to provide music to the VGM scene, and I consider it's not something bad, although reading this don't make feel so good.

To come back to TIM and eriol's request, it's actually interesting to see he was able to enjoy the AdLib version. Maybe he'd prefer the enhanced one, but I mention this only has a proof that an AdLib version of a game soundtrack that also exists in superior forms can still be appreciated. Also, I guess it can in fact handle jazz in a decent enough way; probably not one that people attending a jazz festival would be thrilled by, but one VGM fans can relate to. And I'd like to say there's at least one track from TIM that I prefer the AdLib rendition of over the MT-32 one, finding that the later doesn't deliver a performance as clear and solid as the AdLib one. The track in question is "Rock" / "Punch Out!". Maybe that's my bias again...

I understand your opinion, but I can't admit that you remove everything from AdLib.

FELIPE NO

And of course our opinions converge. Nothing is black and white, and let me preface this by saying I say the following in good faith and not with any malice.

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First, about eriol33's request, he mentioned in the first post that he is looking for jazz in old games (and thus, old "limited" sound). That's why I mainly suggested AdLib tunes, and pushed that version of TIM's soundtrack forward, instead of the enhanced/MIDI one. If he would have been simply looking for jazz, then I would have suggested the version that sounds like real instruments, like you did, but I felt it wasn't the right context here. However, if eriol would actually prefer the more advanced version, then we should provide that one.

I can't say I agree with this- if you're looking for parts of OST's, you want the OST- not something that wasn't intended to be the soundtrack.

You also seem to have this view that MT-32 or Sound Canvas soundtracks are 'enhanced'- usually they're disappointingly done, with poor panning, no reverb, etc. Nevertheless, they always sound better than Adlib scores, and they are always (for Sierra games, and usually for others) the intended soundtrack, exceptions applying of course.

Again, you say 'more advanced'. The soundtrack is the SC-55 composed one, not the Adlib. You seem to be missing the point- old game music doesn't mean 'retro sound', or whatever. Regardless of whether game music is from 1988 or 1995, the way it's supposed to sound is the way it's supposed to sound. You can't reinvent that due to nostalgia or loyalty to a particular sound card's synthesis. Not to say you can't enjoy FM Synthesis (Adlib), or anything like that- I'm not a damn Nazi. But it is misleading to suggest a game's soundtrack is Adlib when in reality the composer never intended it to sound that way, and indeed would be horrified if it had been (compared to available technologies at the time).

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My definition of a "game rip (of music)" is, in a very simple way, the music ripped from a game, as opposed to game music coming from an official album & the like. So, I use the term loosely and it encompasses all music sources, yet I usually make a disctinction for redbook audio, but still consider it a sub-category of "game rip". When I have rips of different sources from a same game, I usually identify it in the folder's name (i.e. AdLib ~ PC Game rip / MT-32 ~ PC Game Rip, etc.). As for the rips I'm doing myself, I don't specify that AdLib is the source in the folder/title, but I do mention it in the NFO file. Since there aren't much PC game rips from old games floating around, and that not many people actually care about them, I believe this isn't misleading enough to be a problem. And anyway, it is, just like an MT-32 & the like sources, a "PC game rip".

I agree with most of that. But I don't agree with your final point. Sure, anything can be a gamerip but then we come again to the PC Speaker example- sure it's a farcical one, but then what's not considered a gamerip? The titles of the folder should clearly state that. I've downloaded a Zeliard 'gamerip' which was the converted QuestStudios GM MIDI files (it's a MT-32 score) played on someone's GM soundcard. Awful.

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I agree that when PC games started to feature sound options higher than AdLib, the later was most probably kept for support, since not everybody had the latest sound card or sound module.

Most probably, I like how you say that. The term is 'legacy support'. And support isn't the right word- it wasn't the composer who sat there and tweaked it carefully so Rimo with his Adlib could enjoy it, it was someone else from the music/audio department who had the unfortunate job of dumbing the General MIDI files down to become Adlib, Tandy etc. (I've heard inside stories from Sierra composers who are friends of mine, this isn't concocted or assumed. Being the Adlib guy or worse yet the Tandy guy, *sucked*.)

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Actually, the majority didn't have them and I'd like to think old PC gamers are more familiar with AdLib soundtracks than with MT-32 ones. Does this make AdLib the "real" sound? No. So MT-32 and the rest are the "real" ones? Closer, yes, but not completely it either. You see, I consider that neither is the true "king", all sound settings avaible shared the "throne", but one might have been bigger and thus occupied a larger part of it, but the others were still there and were still used. While the composer might have composed the music to be played by a MT-32 (and GM cards in general), he also had to keep in mind that not everybody had one, and the other settings didn't have to be neglected. Obviously, the music elements had to be brought to a lower level of sound and adjusted by removal ("dumbing down" as you said), but the result, at least for AdLib, was still very enjoyable (for the majority of games). Considering AdLib's level to be in the same league as PC speaker is a really cheap shot; it's a versatile sound chip and, while being synthetic, it could still reproduce various instruments and by this, allow representation of different music genres. Sure, never on the same level as GM, but it's not devoid of any qualities either. It has a "retro" sound compared to GM, and I've had the chance to speak with several people that actually prefer that, and this wasn't in one of my dreams. This also apply to VGM in general, with chiptunes and other retro sounds being still something many people have a soft spot for (i.e. see the "Best Chiptunes Contest" here at GFF). Unfortunately, this creates a division in old PC game music fans. You might think I'm a pro-AdLib, but I actually can enjoy MT-32 as well, but in this situation, AdLib is brought down, and I have to stick with it somehow.

Now, I agree with the 'most people didn't have one' point. That's why my site exists. But, equally you'll notice noone requests Adlib recordings, despite the overwhelming majority of (for example) Sierra fans who must have played the games with them.

Although, I think TIM would have been played with General MIDI soundcards mostly.

I sort of can see your 'throne' argument, but still, it sounds like rose-coloured glasses to me.

As for what composers did, I explained that point above. No composer specially tweaked sounds for Adlib, that I know of anyway (I know it didn't happen at Sierra).

The affordability problem of the MT-32 era was eroded by the GM soundcard era, where GM and digital SB capabilities wer on the same card, and for a lot less money too.

I can't say I find Adlib very enjoyable or many Sierra games, if so, then it's probably the quality fo the music rather than the format/synthesis being used. But I never compared Adlib to PC Speaker- that point was to Niki about what's considered a gamerip. I've played Sierra games with Adlib before- indeed, I didn't have a MT-32 for years (2002 I think) and played my first Sierra games, SQ3, SQ1VGA, LSL5 etc with Adlib sound on a SB AWE32.

You know, I had Adlib recordings on the first incarnation of my site too
Wow, this takes me back.

Your last couple paragraphs are I don't know, kind of silly. Sure, it's personal preference- but if I was to estimate, I'd say 5% of Sierra music fans would take the Adlib music as their first choice, and probably 0.1% of Kyrandia 1 music fans would.

I don't think there's a division. When people want to hear the old game soundtracks, they always ask for an enhanced version of the MIDI recordings. Noone asks for Adlib recordings, unless specifically they want nostalgia, or if like you they have an affinity for the music (for example, Death Adder's Adlib music archive). Either way they usually want to hear the proper version of the track.

Of course I admit a lot of people played with Adlib and have nostalgia, myself included. And I'm not saying you shouldn't host Adlib music, far from it. I'm very glad you do- I wish you'd do Larry 5, or SQ3/1VGA etc. I just think it is misleading to call a gamerip a gamerip when it's something other than the intended OST sounded like.

Also, I don't use terms like 'pro-Adlib' or whatever. I like FM Synthesis just as much as the next retro gamer, but just when the game was composed using it- say, Apogee's old platformers. I *love* that sound!

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I concur that a MT-32 rip should be considered more like the "true" game rip when the composer has intended it to be the main music setting, but I completely disagree that an AdLib rip is not worthy of the title (or even worth existing). Calling it a "PC AdLib Rip" would be more accurate, but the other would have to be "PC MT-32 Rip". AdLib is still an original game sound, and it was avaible in the settings, but I understand what you mean about that. However, if you are so inspired by an "original" sound, I wonder why you have, for the Legend of Kyrandia rip, actually enhanced it (the choir, for example)?

I didn't say that Adlib music shouldn't exist, or that it shouldn't be called a gamerip. Just say "Game Rip- Adlib" or whatever.

I'm inspired by the original sound, sure! That's why I enhance the recordings. Because although the composers used a device to record, of course if they could have, they would have used a better synth or real instruments. The Roland synths were the best for game music at the time, so they were used. For example, Frank Klepacki asked me to enhance the recordings a bit.

I don't think game music's perfect, even the original OST, believe me. As I mentioned earlier, deadlines meant panning is poor (for example, many MT-32 soundtracks have no panning, everything's dead centre), and more. That's another reason to enhance, to bring out a track's 'full potential' by improving the panning. I'll post a comparison tomorrow to illustrate my point further, from my TIM1 CD.

Also, the only time I do a "PC MT-32 Rip" or SC-55 rip is going to be where I do a full MIDI soundtrack, before I enhance it (because people like the original soundtracksn ot messed with, as well). It's not really a rip, because a rip means direct game audio. I have more fun with it than that

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As you should have guessed, I don't own a MT-32 or any other modules, but do own a Sound Blaster 16 card (with the AdLib chip), so my only possibility to rip old PC games is by using it. I could buy a MT-32, but I feel like there isn't enough games I want to record the music from with that source to be worth it, and most games were already ripped by either Quest Studios, you or the few other module owners around. I certainly have a bias towards AdLib, since I've grown up with its sound, so I actually can enjoy the recordings I'm doing with it, and can only hope others will too. Sometimes, I could wait for someone with a MT-32 to rip a game instead of doing an AdLib one, but in the end, it could never happen or take several years. So, I do what I can to provide music to the VGM scene, and I consider it's not something bad, although reading this don't make feel so good.

Well, if you are wedded to the Adlib sound, and have nostalgia with it, there's no reason for you to get them either.

I also agree with your sentiment, and think it's a great thing that you have such passion for it.

I also understand your frustration with the lack of old MIDI-based PC game rips. That's why Death Adder started his archive, you should check it out.

Also why I started my site- I know noone will record some of these games.

I apologise sincerely if you don't feel good, or if I've offended you. I don't mean to personally attack you or the work you do. I love game music, and it's obvious you do too. But I definitely feel your personal bias towards Adlib shouldn't get in the way of you titling your gamerips appropriately, or it's bound to mislead people. Mislead me when I downloaded your Kyrandia rips. That's all I was getting at- not that you're doing something worthless, or anything like that.

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To come back to TIM and eriol's request, it's actually interesting to see he was able to enjoy the AdLib version. Maybe he'd prefer the enhanced one, but I mention this only has a proof that an AdLib version of a game soundtrack that also exists in superior forms can still be appreciated. Also, I guess it can in fact handle jazz in a decent enough way; probably not one that people attending a jazz festival would be thrilled by, but one VGM fans can relate to. And I'd like to say there's at least one track from TIM that I prefer the AdLib rendition of over the MT-32 one, finding that the later doesn't deliver a performance as clear and solid as the AdLib one. The track in question is "Rock" / "Punch Out!". Maybe that's my bias again...

Oh, definitely. I really like "Sacks" from SQ4 from the Adlib for example.

Also, I liked some of the FM Synth tracks from the "All Sounds of Sorcerian" album (although I think Sorcerian was originally FM Synth based in Japan).

Again, TIM wasn't composed for the MT-32, but the SC-55. You're probably referring to my MT-32 recording on my website. That's not something to rely on, as the General MIDI version sounds excellent. I'll have to dig up a recording.

Although, since TIM1 is so weird, I bet some Adlib tracks are quite acceptable. I wonder how Rock 2 or Funk or Euro sound.

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I understand your opinion, but I can't admit that you remove everything from AdLib.

Hehe. Hopefully I've cleared this up.

- Spike

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I think the real issue here is that we're talking about a Sierra game. Sierra is a particular case in the sense that they do have a Game Music history tied closely to the MIDI format, maybe more than any other company.

I don't mean that only in terms of quantity, but also as an actual artistic will. I mean, it only takes a couple of minutes on Quest Studios site to notice those guys literally worship the MT-32.

A quick look at the site and the forums show people who aren't so much fans of VGM as they are fans of Sierra MIDI music. I mean, some of them go as far as displaying attention to games like Sorcerian and Silpheed only because it was ported by Sierra! (they don't even credit the orginal composers but the Sierra guys who did the MIDI ports, btw) ^_^;

I, for one, prefer Sierra soundtracks in their Adlib form. Why? Because I don't really like fully MIDI based tunes. Simple as that. To take Legend of Kyrandia as an example again, I adore the Adlib version which is full of a mysterious atmosphere, due to the Adlib sound limitations. This atmosphere completely disapears in the MIDI version, and I'm only left with average melodies that don't particularly hold my attention.

I like chiptunes. Don't particularly like MIDIs. This is me. =/

So yeah, one side is expressing a general opinion while the other reduces it to Sierra in particular. This discussion will be going nowhere. ^_^;

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Don't be so quick to simplify- just because you're talking about Adlib and your love with chiptune sounding music, that doesn't mean I think your opinion is invalid, nor does it mean I think mine is limited either.

I think it's fairly obvious that you're biased as far as your love of chiptune music in PC games goes (i.e. Adlib soundtrack for LoK), and probably (in the minority- though that's not a statement of negativity or accusation, it's just how it is. Believe it nor not, some people just like hearing the audio how the composer intended.

As for Sierra's history being tied to MIDI, that's the same as any old game company. For consoles, it's chips.

As for QuestStudios, I'm well aware of its' shortcomings are far as Sorcerian/Silpheed goes. But as you say, the owner doesnt' care about non-Sierra music, whereas I love all VGM.

Anyway. While Idon't think the discussion is 'going nowhere', I think you have to talk about what's being discussed, not just saying "I'm biased therefore I'm right", which I'm trying to avoid (although it's hard so I'm probably failing as Niki is).

Anyway. I'm not here to argue some case. I was just enjoying talking to Rimo. I was actually listening to some of his Adlib game rips earleir without realising.

- Spike

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Spikey

Anyway. While Idon't think the discussion is 'going nowhere', I think you have to talk about what's being discussed, not just saying "I'm biased therefore I'm right", which I'm trying to avoid (although it's hard so I'm probably failing as Niki is).

wat

I actually meant both parties are biased, and in the end that's pretty much all there is to say about that whole discussion. =/

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

So, I am wondering, exactly how many composers want the games they have composed music for to be ripped with the technology they used for composing?
Please pipe up in this thread and your requests will be complied with.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

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I can't say I agree with this- if you're looking for parts of OST's, you want the OST- not something that wasn't intended to be the soundtrack.

I'm not sure I understand this right: is it that the AdLib version of the track I suggested, and the rest, shouldn't be considered to be part of the TIM soundtrack? If so, well, it's still TIM music, and it's closer to what eriol asked for than the "advanced" version.

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You also seem to have this view that MT-32 or Sound Canvas soundtracks are 'enhanced'- usually they're disappointingly done, with poor panning, no reverb, etc. Nevertheless, they always sound better than Adlib scores, and they are always (for Sierra games, and usually for others) the intended soundtrack, exceptions applying of course.

I used the term "enhanced" in comparison to the AdLib sound, but I should really have used "advanced" instead. I did not mean that AdLib was the intended sound and the the others were extras in a way.

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Again, you say 'more advanced'. The soundtrack is the SC-55 composed one, not the Adlib. You seem to be missing the point- old game music doesn't mean 'retro sound', or whatever. Regardless of whether game music is from 1988 or 1995, the way it's supposed to sound is the way it's supposed to sound. You can't reinvent that due to nostalgia or loyalty to a particular sound card's synthesis. Not to say you can't enjoy FM Synthesis (Adlib), or anything like that- I'm not a damn Nazi. But it is misleading to suggest a game's soundtrack is Adlib when in reality the composer never intended it to sound that way, and indeed would be horrified if it had been (compared to available technologies at the time).

Yes, there was an intended setting favored by the composer, I recognize that. However, the were also other settings avaible, including AdLib. So, the soundtrack could have been played by either of them, and still be the game soundtrack (a different face of it, we could say a light one and a dark one). It's not a reinvention of any kind; it's one of the way it could sound. If the FM version would be complete thrash, then sure, it should be left in the shadows, but it's usually not the case. Saying that this version IS the only one would be indeed very stupid, but in my opinion, saying that the MT-32 et al. one IS the only one would be misleading as well, although not as much. For a listening experience out of context, like today with MP3/OGG for example, I consider all options are as good as the other. If the composer would have been so horrified by people listening to the AdLib version outside of the game, he or the company should have released an OST.

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I agree with most of that. But I don't agree with your final point. Sure, anything can be a gamerip but then we come again to the PC Speaker example- sure it's a farcical one, but then what's not considered a gamerip? The titles of the folder should clearly state that. I've downloaded a Zeliard 'gamerip' which was the converted QuestStudios GM MIDI files (it's a MT-32 score) played on someone's GM soundcard. Awful.

As I already said, I don't think this is a big problem because of the very low amount of old PC rips.

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Most probably, I like how you say that. The term is 'legacy support'. And support isn't the right word- it wasn't the composer who sat there and tweaked it carefully so Rimo with his Adlib could enjoy it, it was someone else from the music/audio department who had the unfortunate job of dumbing the General MIDI files down to become Adlib, Tandy etc. (I've heard inside stories from Sierra composers who are friends of mine, this isn't concocted or assumed. Being the Adlib guy or worse yet the Tandy guy, *sucked*.)

Well, there are exceptions, as you also recognize. Not in Sierra games, but although Sierra was huge, not all PC games came from that company. "Dune", by Stéphane Picq at Cryo, is a good example of how the AdLib version is better than the MT-32 one. This composer must have intended the soundtrack to play on AdLib in this case I guess. Actually, in my opinion, I believe more composers should have favored this setting, since it was the most widespread in game player's computers, although I'm usually satisfied by the AdLib versions that were made just the same.

And I don't think the composers would have had to do this only for me, as I wasn't the only person on Earth who had an AdLib-compatible card and played his games with it, enjoying the music at the same time, instead of turning the sound off in disdain because I didn't own an advanced GM card or module. I know you didn't do this either tough.

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Now, I agree with the 'most people didn't have one' point. That's why my site exists. But, equally you'll notice noone requests Adlib recordings, despite the overwhelming majority of (for example) Sierra fans who must have played the games with them.

From my experience, they usually don't request an MT-32 recording either. What they want the most is the game's music. If a recording from an advanced module exists or can be made in a short delay, that's super cool! But most of the time (except for Sierra games), they don't exist! I consider I'm a relatively efficient ripper speed-wise, and by providing AdLib recordings to fulfill requests, I've received positive feedback from people. Maybe they would have been happier with the "advanced" version, but they at least have been able to listen to the music and enjoy it. This is something to consider: they rarely have the choice between downloading an FM or a GM recording, they get what is avaible.

Also, I've interacted with people who specificially requested AdLib recordings. Maybe we form a minority, but still are a reality.

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As for what composers did, I explained that point above. No composer specially tweaked sounds for Adlib, that I know of anyway (I know it didn't happen at Sierra).

Exceptions again. (i.e. Dune)
But yeah, it's very rare and the AdLib one should pretty much always be considered inferior technically. Still, it's the same compositions at the base, and should still be somewhat enjoyable. The nostalgia or "retro-love" (bias) factors can boost this, yet they are elements that are part of what make people enjoy music (which is something quite complex) that shouldn't be frowned upon.

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Your last couple paragraphs are I don't know, kind of silly. Sure, it's personal preference- but if I was to estimate, I'd say 5% of Sierra music fans would take the Adlib music as their first choice, and probably 0.1% of Kyrandia 1 music fans would.

I didn't mean to suggest the FM soundtrack versions were more popular than the GM ones. I was saying that many people have the capacity to enjoy retro sounds, so they wouldn't necessarily consider the AdLib version to be trash, especially when it's the only one avaible in the VGM scene.

And wow, I didn't know there were so many Kyrandia music fans! If I was to be the only one prefering the FM sound of it (and I'm not, I like both versions, so I'd be a null-vote, hehe), this would mean that there would be about 1000 serious listeners. Shoot me the name list! I know, I know, it's an example, and it's true FM is less popular for those cases, but try not to exagerate things either.

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I don't think there's a division. When people want to hear the old game soundtracks, they always ask for an enhanced version of the MIDI recordings. Noone asks for Adlib recordings, unless specifically they want nostalgia, or if like you they have an affinity for the music (for example, Death Adder's Adlib music archive). Either way they usually want to hear the proper version of the track.

Well, there is at least one here! My arguments don't intend to enlarge this division, but rather to make you realize that AdLib was also part of a game's soundtrack, and not just a ragged piece of junk hanging behind the advanced MIDI version. Even for if it's mostly for nostalgia and the rest of the bias, there are people who can enjoy this version just as much, if not even more.

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Also, I don't use terms like 'pro-Adlib' or whatever. I like FM Synthesis just as much as the next retro gamer, but just when the game was composed using it- say, Apogee's old platformers. I *love* that sound!

I used that term in this context, where the two (and more) versions exist. And yeah, Apogee produced some really neat tunes!

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I'm inspired by the original sound, sure! That's why I enhance the recordings. Because although the composers used a device to record, of course if they could have, they would have used a better synth or real instruments. The Roland synths were the best for game music at the time, so they were used. For example, Frank Klepacki asked me to enhance the recordings a bit.

I don't think game music's perfect, even the original OST, believe me. As I mentioned earlier, deadlines meant panning is poor (for example, many MT-32 soundtracks have no panning, everything's dead centre), and more. That's another reason to enhance, to bring out a track's 'full potential' by improving the panning. I'll post a comparison tomorrow to illustrate my point further, from my TIM1 CD.

Also, the only time I do a "PC MT-32 Rip" or SC-55 rip is going to be where I do a full MIDI soundtrack, before I enhance it (because people like the original soundtracksn ot messed with, as well). It's not really a rip, because a rip means direct game audio. I have more fun with it than that

Yeah, it's nice to be able to make the soundtracks sound nicer, and it's something I like most of the time. But what bugs me is that from how obsessed you are with the soundtrack having to be how the composer intended it to be, which should generally be as it was in the game, and then you actually add elements to it. For the Kyrandia example, you received orders, so that's understandable. As I said, I have no problems with you doing this, but I just don't understand with the perception I have of your opinion.

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Well, if you are wedded to the Adlib sound, and have nostalgia with it, there's no reason for you to get them either.

I also agree with your sentiment, and think it's a great thing that you have such passion for it.

I also understand your frustration with the lack of old MIDI-based PC game rips. That's why Death Adder started his archive, you should check it out.

Also why I started my site- I know noone will record some of these games.

I said I am not a pro-AdLib; sure, I love it with passion, but I have no exclusive union with it, meaning that I'm open to other sources as well, when avaible. Consider me a "swinger" in the VGM world, with the goods and the bads.

Indeed, the number of old PC game rips is very low. Around here, I'm almost the only ripper who still touch that sphere (Pyocola did some the other day though), and in general, that actually record music from games outside of the adventure category (Sierra, Kyrandia, etc.). I don't think I'm more "cool" because of this, but if I was not an active ripper, there are many soundtracks that I couldn't be listening to today.

I already know about Death Adder's archive, but to be honest, I would prefer actual recordings from a real hard chip than the AdLib dump files. It still has some usefulness, just not providing exactly what I'm looking for.

Your site, along with Quest Studios, are extremely great and provide a unique service, which is very appreciated. However, you are limited to Sierra games, not that this is something small, but it means that you can't fulfill all needs of the old PC game music era. You recently completed the Legend of Kyrandia rip, which was cool, but I guess it was an exception, right?

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I apologise sincerely if you don't feel good, or if I've offended you. I don't mean to personally attack you or the work you do. I love game music, and it's obvious you do too. But I definitely feel your personal bias towards Adlib shouldn't get in the way of you titling your gamerips appropriately, or it's bound to mislead people. Mislead me when I downloaded your Kyrandia rips. That's all I was getting at- not that you're doing something worthless, or anything like that.

Well yeah, reading things like that sure won't make me feel like in heaven, I just don't like conflict, yet I usually feel like I have to stand my ground, but don't worry, I'm tough. Again, it's not a bias that makes me title my rips this way, rather only the fact it's usually the only source for such music and that I'm using a general system tag for quick reference (PC, PSX, NES, etc.). And I still don't believe it's misleading for people looking for the music for those games, as that's what they'll find, just not the "advanced" version.

Alright, so I guess this shed some more light on my opinion. I just want you to understand I'm not implying the FM version should be taken over the GM one, or that it's more popular, only that it's not devoid of any point of interest either, and thus, there are people who enjoy it. Basically, it's the fact you consider the AdLib side so low, on all levels and almost to the point of excluding it, that irritates me.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Sorry guys If I ask this. But basically, what is adlib? I try to read this whole tread, and it's bit hard to comprehend for me. Is it similar emulated format like these spc, psf, vgm, etc? Or is it the midi files that using better sampling for these pc games? I hope you wouldnt mind to explain about it in less difficult explanation.

Originally Posted by Spikey

And Eriol- cool, you're from Indonesia? Alway nice to see someone from either my country or Indonesia.

Ah australian? I have a friend that living in Australia, he said the country is wonderful. Looking forward to chat with you some other time. =)

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

What we're (simplistically) refering as Adlib in this thread is an old PC audio chip. FM based, so not MIDI, just like the Megadrive chip for example. Check this out for more. =)

FELIPE NO

Thanks to my memory, which I just stirred, I've been able to recall about something very interesting for this debate. Spikey, I guess you're already familiar with it: the "Live From The Sierra Lounge" promo cassette. It was a tape released by Sierra to promote the PC music cards at the time (1988). On it, tracks from a couple of games are featured, with the MT-32 sound. Additionally to those, there is a publicity track, in which a narrator demonstrates how revolutionizing the capabalities of the MT-32 are, but also, those of the AdLib card, over PC speaker! From the selection of samples featured, it's easy to realize the MT-32 is showcased more, that it is the favorite, but still, AdLib was not put out of the picture completely. To quote the narrator:

"Both the AdLib music card and the Roland MT-32 are designed to provide advanced composing capabalities on your computer."

I believe you when you say your Sierra contacts told you they composed for the Roland modules and the like. Still, this tape is a proof Sierra did not consider AdLib so inferior to take it out of the way, and even actually promoted it. This is what I want to convince you of, that the AdLib version of the soundtracks still has a value, even if it's not on the same level as the MT-32 et al. ones.

Here's a link for the promo track in question, if you would happen to not have it handy or if anyone else would like to listen to it: http://www.sendspace.com/file/hxlocj

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Just on the Sierra Lounge, the reason Adlib was promoted was simply because as we discussed before, the MT-32 was out of reach for most people. I mean, it was 500 bucks or so back then, and most people won't spring 200 for a pro sound card now!

Ken Williams wanted people to hear something, otherwise it literally would have been MT-32 or PC Speaker.

That's basically why Adlib existed in Sierra games- also, it was around in other games too, obviously, but I don't have much knowledge about that.

And it's a good thing too. For years, I played with the Adlib music.

I think you're too quick to be defensive rather than listen to what I have to say. But, I still don't want to offend you, as you seem really uncomfortable, I'll say it again. I don't hate the way Adlib sounds, I just consider it inferior (in most cases) to original soundtracks where they were not composed for Adlib, and Adlib was a second or third class option.

I'll finish this later, the wife wants me.

- Spike

P.S. Teioh, is that sarcastic or what? Either way, Frank Klepacki asked me to do just that, pretty much.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I'm defending my point, yes, but I still hear what you said and agree with most of it, just not with the part that AdLib, although it would have not been the optimal sound of choice, is not a valuable version of a soundtrack. I concur with the fact it's inferior technically, however not in a direct line if I could say that, meaning that it's not lower by being simply worse, but also by being different (FM sound), implying that some people can like elements in this difference (and not be stupid and go by saying: "Hey, I like this version better because it's the exact same thing as the superior one, but with a more shitty sound!"). For example, someone who would prefer a 11 KHz file over a 44.1 KHz one. I also support your view on the fact more people prefer the more advanced version; I'm not trying to pretend the contrary.

You seem to consider AdLib as being less negative in this last remark, allowing it a place in the possible "worthy" versions now. Maybe that's what you thought since the beginning, but I had the impression you had pretty much no consideration for it, even if now it's still low, which is normal. So, in the end, it's a matter of preferences, since both are a face of the soundtrack, although as I mentioned, one is getting more light, and for a good reason. If I interpreted things right and this is indeed what you also think, that's the consensus I wanted to reach.

You didn't really hurt me or anything, and hopefully I didn't made you angry either, and I'm comfortable with the debate, only tried to explain things as much as I can since I didn't agree with parts of your opinion. If you'd like to continue the discussion, I wouldn't mind, but I believe we have made our points good enough and in the end, we have a different view or approach on this subject, which is not in an opposite way, but rather as a tangent.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Hm, nice info. So I guess I won't check out Sierra games when I want to hear good use of Adlib.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Um, that isn't my point. Rather than "don't check out Sierra or other games for Adlib", I'm saying listen to a given soundtrack with the device it's supposed to be heard with. With GM scores like TIM, almost everyone here will have the Microsoft Synth, so that's not an issue.

If you want good use of Adlib FM Synthesis, my point is- listen to an actual Adlib soundtrack! I don't think that's a very hard concept to grasp. That's not to discount people like Rimo or Niki's tastes, I'm saying this for all those who aren't necessarily Adlib fans (not that they'll hate it, but for those who play GM games with GM, etc).



Bottom line to Rimo: I don't consider Adlib 'negative', it sounds good, when it's composed for it. Your fondness is a personal preference, which is fine, but most people will concur that the original soundtrack is a vast improvement. There's a difference between liking a particular sound, and liking a soundtrack to be heard the way it was intended.


I didn't mean this to drag into some saga, although I think Rimo and myself enjoy talking about such things. I just think Rimo lets his personal bias influence some of his comments a little too much, which can be misleading. I'm sure there's many people who think some of his Adlib game rips for non-Adlib composed games are the way the game was intended to be heard, and potentially think the game's score isn't much cop because of that. That's something I as a big old PC game music fan don't like very much. Of course the guy's allowed to like the way Adlib sounds, but when it comes to talking about it with other people, call it how it is- don't use terms like 'advanced version' and 'limited version'. It's very misleading.

- Spike

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Spikey

Um, that isn't my point. Rather than "don't check out Sierra or other games for Adlib", I'm saying listen to a given soundtrack with the device it's supposed to be heard with. With GM scores like TIM, almost everyone here will have the Microsoft Synth, so that's not an issue.

Hum. I guess that's why you never sent me those Sorcerian MIDI recordings from the Sierra port, eh? Definitely not worth listening to since the original tunes were composed for the PC98. =p

I was speaking idiomatically.

And that's a different scenario again. Ports aren't the same as dumbed down versions of tunes.

I mean, it's almost the reverse for Sorcerian and Silpheed, the MT-32 is a 'better' format than the PC-98 sound. Unfortunately, the tunes were messed with. Although I prefer a couple of the MT-32 tunes over the various Falcom CD recordings, I can confidently say the reverse is true for 95%+ of the soundtrack. That said, I don't really like the original versions of the music from the PC-98 either, where all sounds are played by one instrument. But the Sierra port is very unsatisfactory as well. But that's another story, I think Silpheed and Sorcerian have never been fully explored as far as CD or live recordings of the game music goes.

- Spike

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Heh, I really meant that in a not so serious way as you guessed. Still, I'm pretty curious about the Sorcerian MIDI arranges and will have to find a way to listen to these without relying on my crappy system.

As for the PC98, ah well personal tastes here again. I love the PC98 sound, and Sorcerian represents the pinnacle of early Falcom music composed for that system, to me. As for Falcom arrangements, they're so numerous much can be said about them. I love some and dislike others, heh.

About Silpheed, I'm not familiar enough with it. I like the PC98 tunes without being a great fan of it, and I haven't heard many of Sierra's renditions. I know there are some really nice things on the Sega CD version, but I'm not sure those weren't composed expressly for it.

FELIPE NO

Well, AdLib is still one of the ways a soundtrack can be heard, for the better or the worse. As I said earlier, people don't always have the choice to pick either the FM or GM version; they can only get what's shared in the VGM scene (or what they can rip themselves). Maybe my rips of games with such formats have mislead some people into thinking AdLib was the only sound source; it wasn't my intention. And I don't believe using the terms "limited/advanced" to be wrong; what I consider false is you saying there is only one version (my "advanced"). On the other hand, for a number of the rips I did, it gave the possibility to people to be able to actually listen to the music. They might not have found what they heard to be as fantastic as if they would have heard the GM version, but at least they heard something. So, AdLib in those cases is, in my opinion, not completely without any use, for it serves to provide at least one version of the soundtrack, if not the one some people actually prefer.

I know you're not against the AdLib sound, only when it's used as a second option. I guess I'm lucky to be able to enjoy it in almost all occasions, although this doesn't imply I can't enjoy the GM version as well, or even better.

I believe that, while I indeed have a bias by considering AdLib as a version of a soundtrack this can still have value when it wasn't composed for this sound in the first place, but that it still was one of the options in the game, it's not as big as your bias, which excludes everything aside GM (in those cases), the best way it was intended to be heard, yet not the only one (again, I consider that AdLib is not simply worse, it's also different (that might be my bias, but that's still what I believe)). But this is something quite understandable, since you are mainly a Sierra music fan and for those games in general, the AdLib versions aren't very interesting since, as niki mentioned, it was probably the company that was the most closely connected to the MT-32 et al. And you're not alone to think this way: the huge majority of the Sierra music community is in the same league of vision. What I don't like is not this part of the vision, of which the GM (or main version) is more worthy of being listened to and is superior, but rather the total exclusion of the AdLib version and harsh commentaries about it, when there are actually some people who can enjoy it by finding different things to like. It can be perceived as a lack of respect with a dose of elitism. I'm repeating myself, but yes, it's a matter of preferences, but the problem is that those who prefer the AdLib side (at least for me) don't say the GM version is crap or worse, but in general, the GM side always try to bring down the FM version, which on some points they are right, that it is inferior, but not to the extent that it's absolutely devoid of qualities. This is frustrating!

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Spikey

If you want good use of Adlib FM Synthesis, my point is- listen to an actual Adlib soundtrack!

Uh, isn't that what I said? Not listening to Sierra games since they have no actual Adlib soundtracks? Anyway all I wanted to state is that I appreciate the info not to check out Sierra games when looking for good use of Adlib.

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