[PS2] Final Fantasy 12 - Unappreciated or underwear

Story in games is one gigantic gray area to me, so I really can't dispute that nor can I stand behind it. I was more disappointed by the game at hand, characters taking a second hand to other types of plot is something I've learned to tolerate in certain instances. I was especially fond of FF Tactics, though most traditionalists I knew hammered the point home about how none of the storyline characters mattered after their parts had been played.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

First of all, I really like FFXII. However, I agree that the main plot isn't very beefy. I felt like it ended too quick since I like stories that take me for a ride. Not much happened. And I think that's why the characters are underdeveloped, because they were presented like characters in a serial drama and were being revealed slowly through the main plot. This is what FFVI did, but it also gave more character development through side quests. If FFXII had that kind of side quests, it'd be fixed. The story as it is only really satisfies people with a sweet-tooth for history because Ivalice has plenty of character development.

The battle system is cool, but it's too easy to exploit like the one in FFVIII. Whenever I replay both of these games, I systematically impose limits on how I customize the characters. In FFXII, you can turn off gambits and common battles are demanding, but then boss battles are sometimes impossible so you have to use the gambits for them a lot. I can't say it's not a flaw that taking advantage of the battle system makes it less engaging. I found a way around it so that it's fun for me, but games should force you to have fun.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Here's a different kind of write up from the usual:

Toastyfrog.com: Compendium of Useless Information : Games - Final Fantasy XII browse

Originally Posted by Talaysen

Personally I found it pretty bad, but believe me, the "majority of fans" don't hate it.

I think that the majority of Final Fantasy fans do indeed have less than joyous feelings on it. At least that's what I always read about on IGN's Final Fantasy board. "The battle system sucks because you're watching the computer play", "the game has no story", "the characters have no development", "I hate random chests", "Fran's voice is horrible", etc. I'd say that FFXII is probably the most love or hate Final Fantasy game since FFVIII.

Even though I absolutely agree with most that the end of the game seemed rushed and that the pacing was noticeably off during the trek to Archades, I liked FFXII a great deal. For me it's easily the best Final Fantasy game since FFVII, and I agree with Kikoha Hater that it has the best Final Fantasy cast since FFVI. I'm one of those who thought that FFX was pretty bad, however, so my taste is not quite the same as that of most Final Fantasy fans. It should also be said that I've always been a fan of Matsuno since the original Ogre Battle. While the characters could've been touched upon a bit more, I didn't mind the emphasis on plot at all, and the storytelling itself was mostly way better than the over the top crap we've been getting from Kitase/Nomura since FFVII. The characters were MUCH more mature and the political story, while perhaps not up to the level of FFT or Tactics Ogre, was definitely a breath of fresh air compared to the cliched anime stories of FFVIII/X.

As for the combat system, I liked it. The License Grid was pretty unremarkable, and I would've liked some way of differentiating your characters a little better, but mostly I had fun. The world was great and hunting marks was certainly much better than the ridiculous minigames from FFX. I'm a gameplay kind of guy and FFXII was mostly good for me in that regard. That being said, maybe the most disappointing thing for me is that there weren't enough new enemy types towards the end. The enemies started getting recycled earlier than I would've liked.

Oh, and I like the soundtrack too. It's not Vagrant Story, but it's still pretty damn good, and definitely one of Sakimoto's best efforts. I disagree with anybody who thinks that Uematsu ever surpassed or matched FFVI with his later Final Fantasy scores anyhow.

Ultimately I thought it was a good fusion of Japanese and Western RPG styles, so I'd probably agree that it's underappreciated, though I'm not sure that I'd consider it a 'great' RPG. 'Very good' isn't a bad place to be though, and I like it way more than FFVIII, FFIX, and FFX.

Originally Posted by Rotorblade

I was especially fond of FF Tactics, though most traditionalists I knew hammered the point home about how none of the storyline characters mattered after their parts had been played.

If by traditionalists you're referring to Final Fantasy or JRPG fans, I've found that most of them like FFT a great deal. In fact, just about every person *that I've run into* who dislikes FFXII happens to like FFT a lot.

I actually agree with that notion however, but only because Tactics Ogre does a better job of reminding you that various party members are still there as the story progresses. As much as people love to heap praise upon FFT's story, it's true that NPC characters like Agrias pretty much disappear from the story once they join your party. FFT is strange in that a couple of moments make you think it'll be a Tactics Ogre kind of affair where you can influence the outcome of events and the direction of the storyline but that aspect was obviously dropped from the final product.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

I didn't quite run into that crop of Final Fantasy fan, and I don't know if I was clear about it, but I do agree with that point of theirs. Just didn't really deter me from enjoying the game's plot. It just wasn't a character driven story, there are stories like that and I appreciate them.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Rotorblade

Just didn't really deter me from enjoying the game's plot. It just wasn't a character driven story, there are stories like that and I appreciate them.

Me neither and me too. Which makes it all the more strange that fans of character driven stories would love FFT and yet dislike FFXII. I guess that it's primarily because of Ramza and Delita. That prologue chapter was a great setup for the story.

How ya doing, buddy?

Because FFT was a full, robust story, whereas FF XII feels like a little kid running through a big world and some stuff happens, but you can't ever really find out anything about it oh and here's a pretty CG cut scene and Balthier is funny.

That's why.

FELIPE NO

I'm sure someone out there could summarize the plot and make it sound strikingly good on paper, Deni. Again, I know of people who could play a Final Fantasy game and remove the story from the equation as far as their enjoyment is concerned.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Denicalis

Because FFT was a full, robust story, whereas FF XII feels like a little kid running through a big world and some stuff happens, but you can't ever really find out anything about it oh and here's a pretty CG cut scene and Balthier is funny.

That's why.

I don't disagree that FFT probably has the better story, but I really don't think that FFXII's story is so bad. It's simply told through a larger perspective. It really is the story of Dalmasca. I guess that it's alienating for those who are accustomed to having the world revolve around the main character. In FFXII it's more like you're part of a larger whole. FFXII makes you feel smaller in that respect, but I appreciate that as an element of the kind of realism that the game goes for, and I found myself enjoying the NPC interaction. Rather than having things happen constantly to your guys in scripted fashion, FFXII has a lot of moments where it's up to you to make something happen, and that sort of design approach is definitely not for everyone, but I personally don't mind it. Some of my favorite RPGs are like that, and yes, I like FFVI's World of Ruin, which some Final Fantasy fans abhor.

Originally Posted by Rotorblade

I'm sure someone out there could summarize the plot and make it sound strikingly good on paper, Deni.

Definitely. By the same token, it's easy to simplify things and make other Final Fantasy stories sound bad.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Excellent point there. This kind of trend is present in games like Front Mission, Final Fantasy Tactics, Ogre Battle/Tactics Ogre... all politically themed, with their respective characters sometimes taking a backseat to the events of the world. At another message board I frequent, it was basically put that Vaan isn't the main character of the game. It's Balthier, he states it as such. But I thought it was an interesting way of presenting the story to the player. There are so many things that aren't just spelled out to the player, and I've never been able to say it enough: I appreciate that.

There's nothing wrong with a story that doesn't do this, but I like seeing these large overarching events just transition, smash into each other, or branch off into other things. We get a greater look at certain themes that just aren't possible on a story that is scaled to the perspective of character experiences. It's hard to show how a political plot affects an entire nation when you're only staring at a few of its citizens.

I liked Final Fantasy XII's story, for pretty much similar reasons to Megavolt. They could have done so much worse.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

"They could have done so much worse."

You mean like they did in Revenant Wings?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Witty, Torte.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Goddammit, I like Revenant Wings. The story doesn't have its head up its own ass so much.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Rotorblade

They could have done so much worse.

Well I'm not sitting here saying it's FF VIII levels of atrocious story and character development. Not even close. What I'm saying is, yes, it's good but given the amazing world they're in, it could have been so much more.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Shit does indeed happen. And I can get behind that. Compared to a lot of games I've played for story, it's still comparatively better but I can't argue that it could have been so much more. There are so many things I nitpick XII about as far as story or even just the game is concerned. I'm sure Matsuno lost his mind (I know about his departure from the game) trying to fuse his style of game and story with what we traditionally expect from Final Fantasy.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Denicalis

If by a few hours you mean level grinding with AI that basically means you don't even have to touch a button. So if you want to watch your people run around a desert and then run away and hit something, repeat ad nauseum, then sure.

Yeah I really wish there was a way to turn gambits off. That would have eliminated that problem pretty much entirely. If only it were possible.

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Originally Posted by Hindman

If we're discussing whether FFXII is underwhelming or underappreciated:
Talaysen already pointed out that with an average numerical score of about 91%, and high marks wherever you go, it's certainly not underappreciated.

Does this really have much bearing on anything? As has been established by now, reviewers who don't give good marks to high profile games get fired. The game could be a giant steaming turd and it's still going to get 90%+ because it's a big name Final Fantasy game and nobody dares say anything bad about it because they want to keep their jobs and ad revenue.

As I see it, the problem is two-fold. One, it seems to still be a novel idea to hire honest-to-goodness writers to work on these games, so you're not getting what might be considered professional work to begin with.

Two, Squeenix really doesn't have to put that much effort into the storyline, and they know it. They're not going to waste time and money on developing the plot when they can just pump resources into their CG farms, make it pretty, and get fat off the easily-pleased fans who only care about the visuals... or who will slavishly buy any Final Fantasy title no matter how bad it is, feeling that they're not a "true fan" if they skip any in the series.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Monkey King

Does this really have much bearing on anything? As has been established by now, reviewers who don't give good marks to high profile games get fired. The game could be a giant steaming turd and it's still going to get 90%+ because it's a big name Final Fantasy game and nobody dares say anything bad about it because they want to keep their jobs and ad revenue.

Dude, you know that entire Gertsmann incident was hardly a simple case of "guy gives bad review and gets fired." There was a lot more going on than him turning in a bad review, as if he were trying to be subversive or some shit. The dude had shit taste in games and even shittier writing ability, but that brings us here:

Quote:

As I see it, the problem is two-fold. One, it seems to still be a novel idea to hire honest-to-goodness writers to work on these games, so you're not getting what might be considered professional work to begin with.

Just because a person is a shitty writer, doesn't mean they aren't one. You make a living off writing, guess what? You're a writer.

Quote:

Two, Squeenix really doesn't have to put that much effort into the storyline, and they know it. They're not going to waste time and money on developing the plot when they can just pump resources into their CG farms, make it pretty, and get fat off the easily-pleased fans who only care about the visuals... or who will slavishly buy any Final Fantasy title no matter how bad it is, feeling that they're not a "true fan" if they skip any in the series.

This just discredits the production crew. Just because Square doesn't care about the story, doesn't mean their development teams don't care about their own projects. It's obvious this game took a toll on Matsuno, so I'm not quite sure what basis your comment has here at all.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

People need do disconnect the marketing and business side of videogames from the development side.

It's been an obvious truth, for a very long time, that developers are often not given the opportunity to fulfill their artistic principles by forces outside of their environment. Final Fantasy XII was an interesting case. Why did they hire Matsuno? His games are usually aggressively deep in both story detail and gameplay. I wonder how much of his work was kept in the final product, and how much was changed when he stepped down. It definitely comes off as a half and half type of product. Matsuno and Minagawa's influences are seen, but they're almost obscured by traditional Final Fantasy staples.

I hear they fixed the license board in the re-release, though.

Quote:

Does this really have much bearing on anything? As has been established by now, reviewers who don't give good marks to high profile games get fired.

Are you referring to Gerstmann in particular? I don't think he was fired because he gave a game an average score. I've been reading his reviews over the years. He wasn't very good, and his Kane & Lynch video review was pedestrian at best.

"This game is ugly because A, B, and C. They curse alot. I do not like this game. It is kind of boring. There should be co-op online."

Being a professional, you'd think he'd write with a bit of flair.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Monkey King

Does this really have much bearing on anything? As has been established by now, reviewers who don't give good marks to high profile games get fired. The game could be a giant steaming turd and it's still going to get 90%+ because it's a big name Final Fantasy game and nobody dares say anything bad about it because they want to keep their jobs and ad revenue.

As I see it, the problem is two-fold. One, it seems to still be a novel idea to hire honest-to-goodness writers to work on these games, so you're not getting what might be considered professional work to begin with.

Two, Squeenix really doesn't have to put that much effort into the storyline, and they know it. They're not going to waste time and money on developing the plot when they can just pump resources into their CG farms, make it pretty, and get fat off the easily-pleased fans who only care about the visuals... or who will slavishly buy any Final Fantasy title no matter how bad it is, feeling that they're not a "true fan" if they skip any in the series.

Heh... I think the problem with the game (now that I had a moment to think about it), is that they were too ambitious.

This guys really tried to make not a great game or another generic FF, but an epic one... sadly they kinda crashed with "reality" and everything went downhill from there. But even then, they archive a good game. (I have to agree -now- that the story has many flaws, however, it isn't THAT bad)

In any case, I wonder how different was the original concept of the game... by the looks, it was going to be much more darker.

Finally, I hope this guys will have the chance to make what they want in the future.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Also.

Quote:

The game could be a giant steaming turd and it's still going to get 90%+ because it's a big name Final Fantasy game and nobody dares say anything bad about it because they want to keep their jobs and ad revenue.

AllRPG.com - Final Fantasy XII - Review

Suffering no loss of ad revenue or free games.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Monkey King

Does this really have much bearing on anything? As has been established by now, reviewers who don't give good marks to high profile games get fired. The game could be a giant steaming turd and it's still going to get 90%+ because it's a big name Final Fantasy game and nobody dares say anything bad about it because they want to keep their jobs and ad revenue.

So now "One incident at Gamespot" = "Every reviewer everywhere."

Quote:

AllRPG.com - Final Fantasy XII - Review

Suffering no loss of ad revenue or free games.

Also, there are *cough* a few places one can look for that...don't fall back on ad revenue...at all:
RPG Land: Merry Christmas » News » Square Enix declines to show gameplay, knows you’ll buy crap anyway

But the best counterpoint to that, perhaps, lies in forums like this one and aggregator sites that let users review things. When the users are also gushing and giving 90%+, well, that says quite a bit too.

Really though, there are counterstories lying all over the place, plenty numerous, that aren't worth delving into individually to avoid spending too much time on this, but in recent memory, lots of people gave Assassin's Creed -- a high profile game with lots of bucks spent on advertising -- pretty average scores. Such to the point that Penny Arcade wrote a counter-review saying "Hey, reviewers, I thought it was great, ease up" which IGN subsequently got pissed about. (LOLIGN)
Speaking of IGN, I think they gave Kingdom Hearts II something like a 7.3, which by most people's scales, is not a blockbuster score. That guy didn't get fired. So let's not take the practices of Gamespot/CNet and assume they apply to every single media outlet in the world, eh?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Sigh.

Well, I personally loved FFXII. It was almost offputtingly different from most other Final Fantasies, but I felt this was neither a hindrance nor a benefit. I loved the game, and it's been a long time since I've last had so much quality time with a PS2 RPG. Easily in my top three favorite FFs.

Sure, it wasn't as gripping and utterly captivating as Vagrant Story, but then nothing is. I WISH it had the direction, pacing and tight writing of Matsuno's other works, but it was epic, it was fresh, it was a game that just kept giving. Maybe most RPG fans insist they're allowed to select Attack over and over instead of having the game do it for them. Maybe they felt vehemently insulted they're denied this privilege and let feel safe in their line dancing

The only thing I'd really complain about the game was that the statistics presented when buying equipment was far too limited. You had all that space, why only show like two values when the equipment altered a dozen more.

FELIPE NO

Any adventure or RPG title that doesn't have a contrast/compare buy/equip system gets docked a point.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

The problem with FF12 is there's barely any story. What little there was had promise and seemed interesting, but there was so little of it that I ended up not caring at all about what was going on. The characters also had next to no development what so ever. Vaan and Penelo were just kind of there and if they had fallen off the face of the planet, the story wouldn't have skipped a beat. At least Fran was kind of important since she's the only way you could get into her village, but other than that she was also just kind of there.

Not even the sidequests had anything to do with character or plot. The only time anyone says a damn thing is when you beat up those bounty hunter guys, but even then Balthier says about three sentences. Mostly you just wander around various locations and take out monsters. It's also like that with the plot. Go through a dungeon and maybe you'll get a short scene if you're lucky.

Overall, I was just throughly disappointed with how little they tried concerning character and plot development. Pretty graphics and a different battle system can only go so far.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

The problem with the whole "world being the main character" argument is the fact that we're talking about a video game. This is not a movie. The world and society as the main focus of a narrative story is all well and good for a movie, but for a video game, it's completely ridiculous. Controlling characters who ulitmately affect something indirectly in the background is wholly unsatisfying. It's the same reason why movies that have flat, unmotivated characters fail - There's no personal connection. Looking for the personal connection with FFXII? Look elsewhere, this game is as distancing as they come.

How ya doing, buddy?