Your Thoughts On Blatant Plagarism In VGM

Or music in general.

I have no problem with people borrowing ideas. Hell, the beatles did it with beethoven. I suppose I wanted your take on BLATANT borrowing of the compositions of others. Do you think it's okay if it's public domain? Does it lower the composer in your eyes? I know Stravinsky's take on the matter but sometimes you'll hear a piece of music and go, "heeeey, I know that."

This question was brought on by playing Grandia III and hearing Alfina's Theme for the first time. IMMEDIATELY, I thought..."Vocalise?" It irked me, though, because if it WAS going to be Vocalise by Rachmaninoff, then play Vocalise! If not, come up with something of your own!

Maybe you think I'm being a little too harsh. Well, I present to you excerpts from both. You compare and be the judge.

What examples of this have you heard in other various VG soundtracks or in music in general. Again, I mean OBVIOUS stealing, not just developing other's themes or ideas. Take a listen.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I would say check the liner notes...Sometimes the composers come right out and say what their influences are, so it may be intentional to pay tribute. Daisuke Ishiwatari does this with various metal influences for Guilty Gear music.

But yeah, no mistaking those two themes.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I don't mind it. Personally, I'd think it's great for the Baroque, Classical, Romantic, and heck, anything instrumental section of music, period, to have an occasional insertion of a theme. I think it helps makes Classical music (not referring to the period) much more accessable to a larger audience. After studying music for over 10 years, I can still listen to Beethoven or Mozart and be in complete awe of the complexity that is still difficult to understand. Many people are unable to get past this. But with game music (or other modern music) allowing for insight into the past with these themes, it allows people to say "Hey, this sounds sorta like _______ from _______" and it may allow them to understand that piece of classical music better. From there, it's even possible to branch off further, and see what else the composer wrote.

You can also run into a situation where a composer could write a piece of music which came to him or her and simply has no idea whether or not it's been done before. It's impossible for every composer to have listened to every musical work of eternity and have knowledge of the melodies. It's even difficult for a single performer to have knowledge of every piece in existance for their instrument. I played a college Viola audition, and none of the 4 faculty members (violin, viola, cello, orchestra director) had ever heard of the piece, and were barely even familiar with the composer. Sure, it's less likely in a case like Rachmaninoff, but you never know.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Almost all game music comes from classical influences now. In that regards simply copying off classical music isn't that big of a deal unless ALL of the tracks are done that way. And again, check the linear notes first, a lot of people credit with tribute information.

Anyway, I doubt the composers of these soundtracks can even get away with plagiarism, they'd probably tell their co-workers that they indeed did use a classical composer's track.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by tetre

I think it helps makes Classical music (not referring to the period) much more accessable to a larger audience.

Ditto that. ^^ Not many people would want to sit down and listen to pure classical music these days, and maybe if incorporating it into a game, it'll expose today's generation to more genres. I mean, it's always good to know about history, and if it sounds good, then, why not?

Originally Posted by tetre

You can also run into a situation where a composer could write a piece of music which came to him or her and simply has no idea whether or not it's been done before.

There are afterall only 8 notes in an octave. So yea, erm... if you do some Maths, there're only a limited number of variations (excluding the different octaves and stuff) one can come up with. And with the number of people coming up with music these days, it's pretty impossible not to have "created" something someone before you had already done. ^^

I was speaking idiomatically.

It might have been a subconscious thing. I know there have been situations where I've tried composing a melody only to realize later I had copied something I heard before.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Yea, that too Dhsu. I mean, with music and writing and art... or just plain creativity, it's pretty difficult to break away from your conscience and really create something. Meh... I don't even know whether I'm making sense or sticking to the topic. ^^

FELIPE NO

Suikoden main theme = Grand Funk Railroad - I'm Your Captain
Tengai Makyou: The Apocalypse 4's "Get Glory! G Robo!" has a guitar solo that sounds alot like the theme from Saved by the Bell.
The opening song of Lunar for PS1 has the same beginning as Lorelai by Styx.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

As I see it, there's nothing wrong with music that's clearly inspired by another piece. And, for that matter, there's nothing wrong with pilfering and re-using your own stuff, as long as it doesn't lead to laziness and sloth.

After all, all music is to some extent inspired by what went before. To insist in complete and utter originality (an impossibility) while decrying every similar sound as blatant plagiarism seems small-minded. So what if there are a bar or two from Mozart in that Final Fantasy game? The original's been mutated, reinterpreted, served as the impetus for something new. So what if Uematsu recycled some of his early bloopy tunes later on? The same thing is happening.

Add to that the fact that none of the artists that are being named as "plagiarlized from" are losing anything--no one is going to stop listening to pop music in favor of VGM that sounds vaguely similar.

I think--at most--the musical inspiration(s) a composer blatantly appropriates should be listed in the credits.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

True, but I draw a huge line from "inspired by" and "using the exact same melody and harmonies." I don't mind being inspired or borrowing here and there from a theme. I've done it plenty of times as a nod to composers I admire. It just bothers me when someone uses almost the EXACT theme, and calls it something else, crediting it to themselves. That's not creative and just because you CAN do it that way doesn't mean you should. I know no one is hurt by it. Just one of those things you hear once in a while that kinda irks me.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Kabukibear

True, but I draw a huge line from "inspired by" and "using the exact same melody and harmonies."

Ay, there's the rub indeed. Considering though, that you cite Iwadare as the thief in your opening example, the knowledge that "Wrapped in Black" from the Sonic Rush soundtrack completely rips off his "Snow Town Laine" from Grandia with equally shameless abandon. There is balance in nature, it seems.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

There are only eleven notes.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

I'm pritty sure that he snuck in a bit of Jet Set Radio's soundbites in Sonic Rush as well.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Inspirations are koo...

but Sonic the Hedgehogs theme (I'm not sure of the main title) has a pretty similar melody to Ravel's Tzigane at around the bottom of the 3rd last page... pretty freaky stuff even if it may be coincidence.

Our orchestra is trying to do just that, putting VGM as a means for our audience to listen to other classical music as well. Many of the Symphonic stuff I think it's actually neo-classical...

On another topic, Joe Hisaishi's work on Nausicaa was pretty appalling. The beginning was a direct copy of some minimalist composer I forgot his name... but anyway, I was pretty disappointed. This dude's got some character problem too... I think it was last year in April, his whole staff quit on him. Like every single one. A new team took over Wonder Studio with his wife as director. Great Musician < Great People. Usually Great People are naturally Great Musicians if you get my meaning.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Breath of Fire III had many, MANY melodies and riffs lifted straight out of the Chrono Trigger music. The "game over" theme is just Wind Scene looped, and the forest theme is identical to CT's. Annoys me.

FELIPE NO