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[General Discussion] "Rap Isn't Music"
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No. Hard Pass.
Salty for Salt's Sake


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Old Nov 29, 2007, 06:50 PM Local time: Nov 29, 2007, 05:50 PM 5 #26 of 41
No other genre of so-called music not only accepts being a complete idiot but encourages it.








Yeah, guys. Only rap encourages utter idiocy amongst its ranks. Seriously.

There's nowhere I can't reach.


John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD.

Dalkaen
hi i want to creat a 21 songs


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Old Nov 29, 2007, 07:39 PM Local time: Nov 29, 2007, 07:39 PM #27 of 41
And this one!


This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
Winter Storm
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Old Nov 29, 2007, 07:41 PM #28 of 41
My personal opinion is that anyone who thinks rap is music, is only living on the memory of what it used to be. Get rid of the posers, and these other lame thuggish new comers, and bring back the long gone rappers..(except the dead ones for obvious reasons..although it is sad that they are gone. I miss big punisher the most)and rap will be appealing.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?
knkwzrd
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Old Nov 29, 2007, 07:53 PM Local time: Nov 29, 2007, 06:53 PM 1 #29 of 41
My personal opinion is that anyone who thinks rap is music, is only living on the memory of what it used to be. Get rid of the posers, and these other lame thuggish new comers, and bring back the long gone rappers..(except the dead ones for obvious reasons..although it is sad that they are gone. I miss big punisher the most)and rap will be appealing.
Sorry for pointing out the obvious here, but bad music is still music.

How ya doing, buddy?
Grilled Carrots
Chocobo


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Old Nov 29, 2007, 08:21 PM Local time: Nov 29, 2007, 07:21 PM #30 of 41
And weird noise with hot chicks counts as some form art too.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
Will
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Old Nov 29, 2007, 11:34 PM #31 of 41
It's all about exposure, when it comes down to it. White people aren't exposed to enough rap, black people aren't exposed to enough metal. There's nothing inherently racist about it. When you've listened to it all for long enough, you realize that hip hop can be as bad or as good as any other genre. Mainstream music in any genre is generally bad. And it is all music, even that weird crap knkwzrd just posted in the MEC. =p

FELIPE NO
niki
Valar Dohaeris


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Old Nov 29, 2007, 11:41 PM Local time: Nov 30, 2007, 06:41 AM #32 of 41
While I do think cultural background and races will heavily influence what kind of music you listen to, I don't think it applies to the "rap isn't music" argument.

I personally listen to quite a lot of black 70's music, and I'm seriously horrified at the massive amount of tracks I hear here and there performed by skilled musicians (who for the most never became famous) that some little fucker sampled, spoke shit over and got rich with.

No, it doesn't take much effort sampling and editing it, breakbeats were already invented back then. Just gotta add your louder bitchass one to the original.

No, it doesn't take a huge musical culture. Ever heard of Dusty Fingers and the likes ? They're compilations of 70s/80s music featuring obscure breakbeat based tracks purposely made for rappers to abuse use. And fuck, they've got no complex using those (they're great listen btw).

No, rapping isn't just "speaking over a beat". It requires certain skills and/or training. How does it even compare to mastering a musical instrument though ? "but man rappers are from the ghetto they can't learn music ..." No, shut up. Most funk, soul acts from the 70s (that rappers are pillaging) were from the ghetto and still played like gods.

No, it's not all rap that is like this. Most of the successful stuff is, though.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?
Traumatized Rat
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Old Nov 30, 2007, 02:00 AM 1 #33 of 41
It's not racist to claim rap isn't music, it's just fucking stupid.
LOLHATERISM!

Seriously, I find it bizarre that people are actually arguing that musicians have to be talented to make music. (lol niki) ZOMG RAP NO TALENT LOLZ.

Spoiler:
I think there has been a huge amount of debate over this sort of thing, especially in academic circles. Take the idea of the scratch orchestra, for instance. While the symphony orchestra is not the only authentic venue for musical expression, it is often seen (by older, dusty, and wrinkly people) as being this pinnacle of musical achievement. Of course, the technical mastery necessary to play the sort of repertoire written for such an ensemble is mindblowing, to say the least. People spend 25+ years learning a trade that is playing music, music that some feel is one of the greatest cultural accomplishments of European civilization.

If you think I am merely saying this to extol the virtues of symphonic music (at the expense of banal pop music) you are sadly mistaken. The 'high and mighty' orchestra is not exempt from examination. As with every establishment, there are always critics and in this case, the critics often see the orchestra as being some sort of fascist hierarchical organization. Furthermore, they don't believe it is the only realistic venue of musical expression.

The reaction against the almost religious adulation of symphonic music is the concept that conceived the scratch orchestra. This is an ensemble that musicians of every level can play in, no matter what instrument they can play. The idea is that this ensemble is equal opportunity and open to whoever is interested in playing, irregardless of what amount of talent they have. Music is not seen as a form of high art, being critically examined by connoisseurs. Instead, it is viewed as a form of authentic self expression which occurs in a much more socialist setting.

So, just because the scratch orchestra is filled with commoners instead of prodigies, does this detract from the intrinsic value of the art in any way? Just because the music isn't written by a genius and performed by geniuses, does this discount it from being called music?

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that rap isn't a style that doesn't require talent to compose / perform. Rather, the point is this: Massive talent is not a prerequisite for attaching the label of 'art' to a creative work.

I think another thing to realize about music is that it can be good, even if you don't like it. I was complaining about how Tchaikovsky rubs me the wrong way and a colleague of mine confronted me about it. He asked me how I can say a Tchaikovsky symphony is a masterwork if it bothers me. I went into an explanation about the balance of the form, the use of themes, motives, development, orchestration blah blah blah blah. Anyway, he asked how I can consider the work successful even if I don't like it. (The obvious implication being that there must be something wrong with the work if it bothers me) Well, I consider the problem to be personal preference, i.e. the problem is the listener, not the music. No matter how objective I claim to be, there will always be certain music that does appeal to me and music that does not.

This relates back to rap in terms of style or 'idiom'. People who dislike 'rap music' often have some sort of bias against the style or the image associated with it. They try to justify the visceral nausea they feel the music generates within them by concocting false logic to discount the artistic validity of the entire genre. They try to blame the music for having the problem when it is actually the listener.

Rap isn't music because it doesn't have a tune. Well, you can use this to argue that rap tracks aren't songs* and I might buy it, but I think people have a severely distorted idea of what music actually is. Many people have attempted to define music and a few have succeeded in coming up with decent definitions. I think the most popular of which is "sound events which occur in time". Of course, even that broad of a definition was eventually challenged by the experimental American composer John Cage and his infamous piece 4'33".

But ya, maybe John Cage and his pals are part of some sort of fringe cult which doesn't reflect the sentiment of the masses. Ok then, lets examine the more conservative definition of music. Music contains pitch and rhythm. (bye bye, stockhausen*) Alright, well maybe the rapper doesn't have pitch in his flow, but beats definitely have rhythm and most I've heard have pitches as well.


So, rap is music even by the fairly stringent conservatory definition, rap is a valid form of artistic expression according to musical intellectuals, and just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it sucks.

tl:dr version: If you think rap isn't music, you're an idiot.


*Stupid music joke no one will get.

Jam it back in, in the dark.
niki
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Old Nov 30, 2007, 06:23 AM Local time: Nov 30, 2007, 01:23 PM 1 #34 of 41
Seriously, I find it bizarre that people are actually arguing that musicians have to be talented to make music. (lol niki)
I never mentioned talent. =/

And you can apply what I wrote earlier to a good amount of house/electronica music who pillage 70s/80s disco just as much and in the same immoral way.

There's nowhere I can't reach.
No. Hard Pass.
Salty for Salt's Sake


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Old Nov 30, 2007, 07:04 PM Local time: Nov 30, 2007, 06:04 PM #35 of 41
Don't forget this one deni!

YEEHAW TOBY KEITH!

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.


John Mayer just asked me, personally, through an assistant, to sing backup on his new CD.

i am good at jokes
LUCKY!!!


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Old Nov 30, 2007, 07:43 PM Local time: Nov 30, 2007, 08:43 PM #36 of 41
Well, since most arguments have already been fleshed out pretty well by the people who've already posted, I'll only make a slight addendum of sorts to what Rat wrote out (well done, by the way).

I think the aspect of rap that makes the people question it's authenticity as a form of music is probably the fact that rapping in and of itself is more related to the arts of oration/rythmic declamation than it is to music. In fact, a rapper freestyling without a backbeat is probably gonna be closer in experience to that of listening to someone making a lecture, a poetry reading or a sermon(albeit a more lively one than most I've attended). Add a beat, and voilà! It becomes Hip-hop which, in opposition to just rap, is purely music if you remove the rapper. Of course, certain artists tend to be more borderline between signing and rapping, and in these cases I guess I consider it to lean more towards music than the preceding examples I've given.

So, as the ballet or the opera, one has to be ready to adapt to a hybrid form of art if they are to appreciate rap. I for one don't care much for either of these three forms of art, as I am solely (or almost) interested in music. I'm not saying they don't have merit, just that they aren't really my bag.

Now, as to wether saying rap isn't music is racist or not, I think Dr. Uzuki said it best when he said that we can only tell on a case to case basis. I consider rapping to be a form of artistic oration by itself (so not music) but I do consider the constructions these guys use to rap on music. Does that make me a racist? I sure hope not. Now, If my only argument would have been "them's niggers, they can't make music" or something along those lines, then certainly the answer would have to be yes.

However, I think in most cases people who don't like hip-hop tend simply to find themselves alienated by it in being unable to relate to the experiences these guys are sharing, as Rat said in his post.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Juggle dammit

Last edited by i am good at jokes; Nov 30, 2007 at 10:30 PM.
Will
Good Chocobo


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Old Nov 30, 2007, 09:46 PM #37 of 41
No, it's not all rap that is like this. Most of the successful stuff is, though.
Again, mainstream music is bad. So what? Rap has samples, rock has power chords.

I was speaking idiomatically.
Contracts
Chocobo


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Old Dec 3, 2007, 07:32 PM #38 of 41
My personal opinion is that anyone who thinks rap is music, is only living on the memory of what it used to be. Get rid of the posers, and these other lame thuggish new comers, and bring back the long gone rappers..(except the dead ones for obvious reasons..although it is sad that they are gone. I miss big punisher the most)and rap will be appealing.
And it seems you've completely ignored the underground. Regardless of how "garbage" you consider the mainstream, Underground is still live as ever. And while you say living off that memory, a lot of underground rappers are still imposing that basis to there music - or elevating. Almost all of the Def Jux line up is impressive lyrical and beat wise; Rappers like Mr. Lif bring back that essence of what Chuck D was preaching years ago, Or the revolution that was Company Flow who brought some of the freshest concepts since Kool Keith dropped Critical Beatdown. Underground is still alive and kicking, yet any average listener of hip hop looks at it as "Mainstream is garbage now, were's my Pac?".

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
Fireman Joe
Superhero Extroadinaire


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Old Dec 5, 2007, 02:49 AM Local time: Dec 5, 2007, 06:49 PM #39 of 41
I feel I can clarify my thoughts on this fairly succinctly.
"Rap" is a vocal technique, not a musical genre. You're probably looking for hip-hop. And as for that, there are lots of white hip-hop artists (many of which rap about many things other than sex/drugs/drive-bys). It's not racist to say 'rap isn't music', it's just stupid, that's all.
I second that quote of Dizzy Gillespie.

FELIPE NO
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Let's have activities!


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Old Dec 7, 2007, 09:25 PM Local time: Dec 7, 2007, 07:25 PM #40 of 41
I stand corrected. Rap is still horrible, though.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?
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