[General Discussion] Overly Frustrating RPG Boss Battles - Sephiroth kicked my ass

Originally Posted by Denicalis

Oh, so it's a Qwarky-Rat combination? No wonder it's so incredibly unfunny.

Also, by your logic there, cap'n, anyone who finds Mega Man difficult has nothing to do with the game, as they can just train their hand eye co-ordination and memorise patterns of enemies and they'll be fine. Same thing with any platformer.

Of course if you overtrain your characters things are going to be easy in an RPG. The point of threads like these is attached to an unmentioned rule of saying "on average levels" at the end.

Man, I don't know how anyone could find puzzle games hard. Just get used to the patterns and spend a few hours wrapping your head around the concept to train and it gets easy.

This is why no one takes you seriously.

P.S.

Never end anything with "it is for this reason that I think", as it makes you look like you're writing a 6th grade essay. Go home.

You mean you've never been in a boss battle where you've tried out a different strategy and then suddenly realize that's what you were doing wrong?

For example, I imagine you could make just about any boss in FFV almost impossible, but if you take a little bit of time and think about how to build your party, then you'll get phased by hardly any boss in the game.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Denicalis

Oh, so it's a Qwarky-Rat combination? No wonder it's so incredibly unfunny.

Also, by your logic there, cap'n, anyone who finds Mega Man difficult has nothing to do with the game, as they can just train their hand eye co-ordination and memorise patterns of enemies and they'll be fine. Same thing with any platformer.

Of course if you overtrain your characters things are going to be easy in an RPG. The point of threads like these is attached to an unmentioned rule of saying "on average levels" at the end.

Man, I don't know how anyone could find puzzle games hard. Just get used to the patterns and spend a few hours wrapping your head around the concept to train and it gets easy.

This is why no one takes you seriously.

P.S.

Never end anything with "it is for this reason that I think", as it makes you look like you're writing a 6th grade essay. Go home.

In all my time at GFF, I don't think I've ever seen such a thinly veiled trolling attempt as this one. Sir, I am honestly insulted that you'd even think for a second that I'd bite on this. Sorry, but I'll pass.

Back on topic, I think the RPG that gave me the most harsh assraping has to be the original version of Tales of Phantasia for the SNES. I can recall countless bosses that required at least a couple of attempts to defeat and the one dungeon (can't remember the name but it I think it is the Mines of Morilia or something) was absolutely ridiculous. Even some of the enemies in that dungeon can wipe members of your party out with one hit. Fiendishly difficult, I say. While hard, that game has to be one of my favourite RPG experiences. I think I'm a sucker for old games.

As for individual annoying bosses, there was this one demon early on in the game. I recall traveling out to an island by boat from Venussia and the fight occurred in the basement of an old house there. Ya, the boss kept on casting lich on me, something that kept decimating my party. I think in the end, I just pounded the hell away on him and somehow managed to survive it.

While I also liked Tales of Symphonia, the game was really quite tame unless one tries the optional difficulty settings. Am I the only one who has witnessed an overall decrease in the difficulty of games since the NES era?

RR, my Robotrek RPG adventures are what taught me about the importance of character building in the RPG genre. Since the enemies in that game are visible, my 15 year old self saw fit to avoid all battles, a fact that was responsible for my lack of success that time around. The one thing I found very interesting about Chrono Cross was how you didn't actually gain levels in that game, at least not in a traditional sense. It really eliminated 'bullying' one's way through an RPG through grinding and forced the player to consider the strategy required to defeat the different bosses.

Most amazing jew boots

P.S. Essentially walking out

P.P.S. and then coming back in

P.P.P.S to attempt to throw one

P.P.P.P.S. last insult in on the other hand

P.P.P.P.P.S. doesn't make you look like an adolescent

addendum addendum oh and by the way just FIY kid post scriptum at all.

Just as a note, I haven't been to RPG for days and didn't change the name. Take your neckbeard elsewhere you you insecure fake american you!


As for topic, I had hueg problems with Mother 1 Giegue. I was probably badly underlevelled (despite my best efforts) and so Giegue could wipe me out fast, considering you had sing a good 10+ turns. It took me so many game overs and reloaded quicksaves to finally get lucky enough to survive this attack, heal enough on this turn to finally beat him it wasn't even funny. Awesome battle and set piece either way~

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Traumatized Rat

The one thing I found very interesting about Chrono Cross was how you didn't actually gain levels in that game, at least not in a traditional sense. It really eliminated 'bullying' one's way through an RPG through grinding and forced the player to consider the strategy required to defeat the different bosses.

That is one of the main things I always appreciated about Chrono Cross. While I see the point Deni brought up earlier, I always felt that it was a bit different with RPGs. Different as in very little thought is required in grinding. You dedicate an hour or so and that usually will let you blaze through the next 2 - 5 bosses in you average RPG. I always found it funny how some of the Shin Megami Tensei games made it even easier by letting your characters auto attack. Talk about mindless.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Auto-attacking got me in more trouble in SMT than not, what with the reflecting/nulling/absorbing physical attacks.

Although, I want to throw up Matador as being a fucking bitch too. You might have media, but it doesn't matter, since he goes twice and hurts you more anyway. Not to mention his constant buffing evade, and the fact that you don't have access to dekunda. The only strategy I found on a new new game is to throw up the snuffleupagus and hope that he got hit with a zanma. Also popping health like an addict. =/

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by Manny Biggz

That is one of the main things I always appreciated about Chrono Cross. While I see the point Deni brought up earlier, I always felt that it was a bit different with RPGs. Different as in very little thought is required in grinding. You dedicate an hour or so and that usually will let you blaze through the next 2 - 5 bosses in you average RPG. I always found it funny how some of the Shin Megami Tensei games made it even easier by letting your characters auto attack. Talk about mindless.

When it comes to JRPGs, I think that grinding for an hour just to fly through four or five bosses detracts from the overall gaming experience. When I mentioned level building in my post, I was more commenting on problems that can arise if a player doesn't pay attention to developing his / her party i.e. blowing through the game and avoiding as many fights as possible. (If you are playing a game that allows you to do this.) I personally have run into this problem because when I become fatigued while gaming, I'll try to avoid as many fights as possible.

I think an interesting game design was the boss fights in Lunar Silver Star Story. In the PSOne iteration of the game, the boss stats were always based on the stats of your main character so no matter how strong your party was, the boss fights were always frightfully intense. I noticed when I went to fight Galleon that my three supporting characters were far too week to do much good. With all the powerups from the super weapon and armour set, my main character ridiculously outbalanced the rest of my party so while he stood tall against Galleon, the rest of my party was continually wiped out in short order. As a simple solution to this problem, I actually build up the levels of the support characters while sending my main character running from all the battles I was fighting. This evened things out a bit and made for a much more tolerable experience.

Hmm, does anyone remember the underwater Gear battle with Ramses and Miang in Xenogears? I remember that one was a royal buttpain as well. Those gears always running out of fuel.

FELIPE NO

I never had much of a problem with the gear battles. It was my experience that if you optimized power over fuel, you could beat them down in fairly short order.

edit: I should say, the first time I played through I tried to use the frame hps and all that other bullshit and wound up getting my ass kicked on several occasions. On subsequent play throughs I optimized power over fuel and never had a problem.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Dr. Uzuki

Saga Frontier II. Knight's or Gustave's time lines, the end battles. Gustave's strat-rpg battle was downright impossible. Performing every move as perfectly as you could still relied heavily on luck.

That's as far as I ever got in that game, never did finish it because of that strategy battle.

I found the battle against the Esper in FFXII where you can't use magic incredibly difficult, mainly because I walked in there having no idea I wouldn't be able to use magic and having very few items on me. I did actually beat him on that first attempt but my party were pretty over-levelled and I got really lucky with a mist chain that damn near took off three quarters of his hp.

As far as FFX goes, I never had any problems with any of the stories but I never managed to beat a single dark Aeon. They just require too much level grinding to reach the point where you can make a dent on their ridiculous hp levels and I didn't enjoy FFX nearly enough to be bothered.

I'd also say that Lucifer in SMT Nocturne is very tough, if only for the insane amount of time it takes to build a decent party to fight him. I ended up killing him with the Trumpetter, Metatron and Beezlebub but getting each of them with Pierce skill on takes some effort.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Summonmaster

Valkyrie Profile:

Iseria Queen was still largely luck, although partially controllable. Probably the first three or four times to you descend through all three or four large levels of the Seraphic Gate (when you haven't memorized the layout) are the hardest, as the damage output was lower due to levels and such. If your guts didn't kick in on at -least- one member out of four (and it does happen!), you die and have to trek all the way down to her again! As fun as Empress Massacre was, Cosmic Spear was really the dreaded attack every turn. Without Angel Curios for additional insurance, you'd really have to cross your fingers, come every cosmic spear.

That's the thing. The moment you see the enemy first using great magicks, that applies. I think even Barbarossa's Calamity Blast can one-shot you if you don't have guts. This trend remains throughout the entire game, which makes guts no longer optional. As for Iseria, because of guts, your basically good to go, the chance of guts failing on all 4 is pretty small. I've seen if a few times myself, but not often enough to resort to angel curios. Besides, as I recall she only used Cosmic Spear every 3 rounds or so, plus you can reduce its damage significantly by equiping -dark items. All her other attacks were single target.

If you want frustrating, talk about the 2 Dragon Tyrants that appear in SG. They still scare me, even today. They are basically 2 Bloodbanes, except 3 times stronger. Pretty much ALL their attacks hit the entire group. =/

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Traumatized Rat

In all my time at GFF, I don't think I've ever seen such a thinly veiled trolling attempt as this one.

I'm over here Rat. You're talking to the wrong guy.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I don't think that RPGs have gotten easier over the past few years, they just have become more balanced. Take 7th Saga, from the SNES era, which had one boss battle that was just so frustrating that I just stopped playing it. This battle was ridiculous because the boss would get stronger as you levelled up, meaning that you had to rely on sheer luck to win the fight.

SMT games in general have challenging boss battles. Playing Nocturne on Nightmare mode was just ridiculous, I got my ass kicked in most of the random battles, and some of the boss battles were basically impossible, like Matador and Lucifer. With Matador you were ridiculously underleveled since it was still early in the game, and there weren't enough effective demons available, so you just had to pray that he didn't use his uber attacks. Lucifer was even worse, and I must have grinded for hours just to be able to stand up against him, and even then it was a battle that took me over an hour because I had to keep healing all the time.

DDS2 was also pretty difficult, mostly because you were force to use certain characters at various boss battles, so you would end up being slammed because you couldn't compensate for their weaknesses (Heat in EGG was incredibly frustrating). I tried a few of the optional boss fights, but even after a few hours of grinding Shiva still kicked my ass.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Peter

Take 7th Saga, from the SNES era, which had one boss battle that was just so frustrating that I just stopped playing it. This battle was ridiculous because the boss would get stronger as you levelled up, meaning that you had to rely on sheer luck to win the fight.

Uh, this is common in RPGs. The enemies level up along with the players to allow for, you know, a challenge in gameplay.

I was speaking idiomatically.

I'll never forget getting smashed by some of the bosses in Final Fantasies 4-5 including IV's Wyvern (who guards Cecil's final sword) and the optional mega-bosses in V - especially that damned turtle Gilgame and the infamous Skulleater squirrel who flat out owns your ass the first time you run into him and don't realize you have to run like hell. In Final Fantasy VII, Bizarro Sephiroth kind of a pain because enough of my party members stunk to the point that each of my two teams had some real dead weight characters who I'd foolishly ignored throughout the latter parts of the game.

I also hated FFIV's Dark Elf/Dark Dragon, who throttled me 2-3 times because I didn't realize he was weak to Cecil's Legend Sword (which, apparantly, is a holy weapon) and his Dark Breath kept wiping me out. Again, my levels were probably kind of lousy.

In FFVIII, I kept trying to fight Diablos (the summon you carry around as an item for a while) way too early, and that quickly became frustrating.

No matter what game it's from, I always hated battles where the boss could wreck you with a level 3-this or a level 5-that, especially Level 5 Doom or something. FFV particularly stunk with this, because your characters level up roughly parallel throughout the game, so one of those attacks runs the change of shredding you just because you didn't remember your whole team was level 40. I always thought those attacks were cheap and stupid.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by LeHah

Uh, this is common in RPGs. The enemies level up along with the players to allow for, you know, a challenge in gameplay.

Fuck off Lehah, I'm not an idiot. Of course this provides challenge as long as the systme has, you know, balance. If I gain one level and the enemy gains 10 levels, I wouldn't exactly call it a fair system. Learn to read an entire post, as I was just citing 7th Saga as an example of how unbalanced games can be.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by SuperSonic

Speaking of cheap...

Final Fantasy IX:

The majority of the bosses in this game were cheap, but the one I remember most is the final one...I believe Necros was its name. First it had that one attack where it crossed its arms and shot a laser at a party member, reducing he/she to 1 HP. Then, there was Grand Cross...if your party members weren't at a high enough level, you were fucked. I remember my normal party of Zidane, Dagger, Steiner, and Vivi couldn't get the job done so I had to switch out Vivi for Amarant because he had higher HP.

FF9:

This one bothered me as well, probably because you have to endure two other boss battles before you are thrust into this (incredibly tricky) one at the end.

Now this next one was one of the most depressing moments I had ever encountered in gaming, but also one of the most frustrating battles as well:

Originally Posted by SuperSonic

Chrono Cross:

Miguel. Freakin, Miguel. He doesn't look tough at first, but the fact that one move in his arsenal can bring your HP to critical or even kill you is just unbelievable. I've forgotten the name of the move, but his whole arm becomes a light elemental sword (and the fact that two of my characters were dark elementals don't help either) and he just dashes and slashes once. Once is enough...heal fast or die.

Chrono Cross:

Yes. Miguel was frigging REALLY difficult, mostly the music makes you not want to kill him! Like most people who were playing it for the first time, I definitely did not expect to get thrashed by his giant holy excalibur or whatever he had stuffed in the back pocket of his khaki shorts. The boss in Chrono Cross who gave me a major run for my money was the knight who was under the spell of the Masamune (at least I think that's what was going on). He ripped through my group like we were tin foil and I remember not believing that I actually beat him eventually.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

This thread seems to be going down in flames rather quickly, so I'll try to say something interesting.

The very first time you play through Suikoden II, Luca Blight seems to be almost impossible to beat. Three consecutive battles which, if you happened to somehow emerge victorious from the last of them, are rewarded with the hardest duel in the game. Suikoden II was weird in that, no matter how good you are at the RPG genre, you don't really seem to be good enough to do all the right things to prepare for the fight until you beat it and play through it again.

Of course a part of that reason is because you now know what's going to happen, but the game's mechanics don't seem to be perfectly clear until you've taken some time to absorb the information.

As Suikoden II fans know, when you're playing the game a third or fourth time, Luca Blight is frighteningly easy. Those first two battles you fight against him that seemed impossible are now being intentionally lost because you want some semblance of a challenge for the last fight and duel.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Qwarky

P.S. Essentially walking out

P.P.S. and then coming back in

P.P.P.S to attempt to throw one

P.P.P.P.S. last insult in on the other hand

P.P.P.P.P.S. doesn't make you look like an adolescent

addendum addendum oh and by the way just FIY kid post scriptum at all.

Just as a note, I haven't been to RPG for days and didn't change the name. Take your neckbeard elsewhere you you insecure fake american you!

I didn't assume it was you for no good reason there, slick. Rat claimed you'd done it.

Originally Posted by Rat

It is for this reason that I think the new thread title is so fitting. (thanks for that, Qwarky)

So you know, feel free to go fuck yourself at your leisure, Moby.

Originally Posted by LeHah

I'm over here Rat. You're talking to the wrong guy.

No, Rat just claims anyone is trolling when someone proves him wrong. As a result, Rat feels he gets trolled a lot.

How ya doing, buddy?

Can't we just talk about the topic at hand? This shouldn't get bogged down in melodrama.

To add to the growing list of hard bosses, I think I'd put Bloodbane from Valkyrie Profile up there. He's easily the toughest boss in the main game, and the only boss outside of Seraphic Gate that really requires you to know Guts (a skill that has a pretty good chance of reviving your character if they are KO'd).

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Denicalis

I didn't assume it was you for no good reason there, slick. Rat claimed you'd done it.



So you know, feel free to go fuck yourself at your leisure, Moby.

And you took his word for it.

I wouldn't bare to show my face around here. Luckily you have enough facial hair to hide behind.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by LeHah

Uh, this is common in RPGs. The enemies level up along with the players to allow for, you know, a challenge in gameplay.

Well, not really. The normal status quo is that bosses remain at a static level - you just meet bigger and stronger bosses as you progress through the game. If you get stuck, normally you can go level grind for a few hours and get a leg up.

7th Saga occasionally had boss fights against the other selectable main characters, and they would all match your level. Level grinding would often be counter productive, since coming back at a higher level meant THEY would be boasting a host of new abilities as well.

The game was particularly unfair about this, since your partner typically wouldn't help you out when dueling the other main characters. This made life particularly harsh if you were playing as one of the magey types. The elf wizard chick had practically 0 defense, so trying to use her meant getting your head punched off in the first couple turns.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Generic Badass

Can't we just talk about the topic at hand? This shouldn't get bogged down in melodrama.

I just remembered a really frustrating example, and I hope it just wasn't me being slow or something. If anyone has played Illusion of Gaia, they should probably remember those DAMN vampires at Mu! You had:
1) The time limit of the bomb countdown going on throughout the fight.
2) Two enemies at once.
3) To disarm the bomb after you kill both vampires.
4) Poor, poor attack strength unless you made a long trek back to a warp door to change into Freedan instead of being Will.
5) The vampires doing massive damage to you with certain attacks.

That certainly was one of the most frustrating fights I remember with all those factors kicking in.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Qwarky

And you took his word for it.

I wouldn't bare to show my face around here. Luckily you have enough facial hair to hide behind.

Just making up for your bald-headed/faced antics there, O master of techno and all things early 90's.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by indutrial

FF9:

This one bothered me as well, probably because you have to endure two other boss battles before you are thrust into this (incredibly tricky) one at the end.

FF9:

Actually, after I beat Deathguise I went back to save and heal up...then I went on to fight Trance Kuja. Now that I think about it, there was one attack of his called Dark Star or something that tore into my group. However, Necros still remains the cheapest boss in that game next to the dragon thing that was in the sewers (it's been a long time since I've played that game).

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Summonmaster

I just remembered a really frustrating example, and I hope it just wasn't me being slow or something. If anyone has played Illusion of Gaia, they should probably remember those DAMN vampires at Mu! You had:
1) The time limit of the bomb countdown going on throughout the fight.
2) Two enemies at once.
3) To disarm the bomb after you kill both vampires.
4) Poor, poor attack strength unless you made a long trek back to a warp door to change into Freedan instead of being Will.
5) The vampires doing massive damage to you with certain attacks.

That certainly was one of the most frustrating fights I remember with all those factors kicking in.

I always found the fight in the pyramid to be a lot more frustrating. I don't think I ever beat it without using a few of my herbs up (and I needed them for the red gem dungeon ).

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Summonmaster

I just remembered a really frustrating example, and I hope it just wasn't me being slow or something. If anyone has played Illusion of Gaia, they should probably remember those DAMN vampires at Mu! You had:
1) The time limit of the bomb countdown going on throughout the fight.
2) Two enemies at once.
3) To disarm the bomb after you kill both vampires.
4) Poor, poor attack strength unless you made a long trek back to a warp door to change into Freedan instead of being Will.
5) The vampires doing massive damage to you with certain attacks.

That certainly was one of the most frustrating fights I remember with all those factors kicking in.

While I can honestly say that I can hardly remember anything from Illusion of Gaia, I mean it was a game I rented for a few days, about 10 years ago or so, I can absolutely back you up on that, buddy.

That fight truly was insane, there was so much stuff going on at once that you couldn't help but get overwhelmed. I sure as hell got my ass kicked. I never even made it past that fight. =/

Most amazing jew boots