Theological Discussion

Originally Posted by LeHah

Hehehe, half-right. I think Feuerbach was more "Hey, stop this shit about there being a higher power if you can't support the idea with logic. Just be happy you are the highest power you know and get on with your freaking lives, foo"

Well, I mean, you can't prove either side of the fence with God.

Thats why we're sitting here over an eCoffee discussing Satan. And God. Because no one can prove shit.

Kinda like saying Pink Floyd sucks ass. A lot of people would disagree, but that doesn't make them right or wrong.

Do you have any links for this Feuerbach dude? Get some for AIM tonight.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Man, I really hate QuoteWarstm so, I'm just gonna do what I intended and respond to one point at a time.

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Why would he care about a person like me, sir. I don't believe in God. Why would Satan care about me because of that? I am a neutral in both parties!

He cares because God wants you in his camp. And there are only two camps, sadly. If you don't want to be with God, you end up in the other camp. Satan couldn't be happier than when someone doesn't care either way. Takes the burden of winning you over off his shoulders.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Minion

Man, I really hate QuoteWarstm so, I'm just gonna do what I intended and respond to one point at a time.

You, sir, hate everything but Jesus Praise. =p

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He cares because God wants you in his camp. And there are only two camps, sadly. If you don't want to be with God, you end up in the other camp. Satan couldn't be happier than when someone doesn't care either way. Takes the burden of winning you over off his shoulders.

WHAT IF I AM MUSLIM?

I am TECHNICALLY on the Jedi Side. Just not batting for God and Jesus. More like Mohammed. My sponsor is a little different.

I still can not get over the fact that you people SERIOUSLY THINK that your religion is the ONLY RIGHT religion. Man. BOGGLES THE MIND. Thats not proud AT ALL!

(Dont get mad at me, Minion)

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Sassafrass

Ah. THere we go.

Of course we have the right to be proud.

If you're a good Christian, God will send you to heaven! Isn't THAT AWESOME? Aren't you PROUD that you can live your life like a good Christian??

Aren't you PROUD God favors you over people like me? Don't you deserve Heaven?

No, I do not deserve Heaven. I am extremely glad that God will accept me how I am. I am happy and thankful for the chances I have been allowed. This still does not give me any right to be proud in the context in which you are referring to. It was through no effort of my own, but all the work had been done by god already.

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But Alice and Minion just told me that you can kill a person and get into Heaven! This makes no sense, Fyodor! ;_;

WELL SHIT. Sounds like you can be a murdered and you CANT get into Heaven! You were playing God!

Can SOMEONE PLEASE tell me if I murder someone, whether or not I can get into Heaven if I accept the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into my black little heart?

Ignoring your satire... Yes, you can be forgiven for the sin of usurping the role of God. Which is the whole point.
A murderer can still get into heaven, if he realize that what he was doing what wrong, and gave up this sinful desire.

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Jesus isn't God, dude. He's apparently the SON of God.

Let me ask you something.
When humans have progeny, what are they? Humans
When God has "progeny" what is it? God
This is only an illustration to explain what on earth is going on, because, like you said, the Trinity is intangible.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Fjorder

There are many references in Isaiah to "the morning star" that had fallen, and taken 1/3 of the heavens with it.

The 1/3 of the heavens is half a verse out of Revelation which is taken out of context in order to fit some kind of "pre-earth rebellion" timeline. Goes something like "and the dragon took a third of the stars of heaven with his tail" or some shit. But it's stuffed inbetween a bunch of other imagery that "isn't" connected with a pre-earth rebellion of Satan. In other words, people don't know what the fuck it really means since it was most likely a political reference that made sense to the people who it was written to at the time mystical prophecy.

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But, I mean, it seems like Satan himself can hardly compete, you know? He only has one BIG flaw - he's proud. Or so you guys are telling me? I mean, does he have more faults?

Actually Sass, there's an interesting theory on Satan within the Jewish Kabbalah. According to one theory, when this world is over we're all going to be absorbed back into God as "one" being. We'll lose anything that defines us as a unique being, but be part of the awesomesuperduperness that is God. Satan didn't like this. He was like hey, I like being me, I want to stay an individual instead of being sucked back into the big black Holy hole that is God. This is why he was such a draw for so many souls; Satan offered a rebellion for individuality. This theology goes on to say that the reason we exist is to experience life for God, then He'll absorb us back in with our experiences. I even believe there's a few verses in the Bible that talk about us all becoming one with God when we die (but of course, there will be debate as to the meaning). I find the whole idea of this really interesting, and one of the more plausible arguments for Satan other then "he's teh evil dood."

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I think Christianity is right, but that's not to say that every other religion is 100% wrong. It's just that .0000001% that matters that seems to elude people. Nevertheless, I told you about accountability. If a Muslim doesn't really understand the Gospel and never gets around to rejecting it, I don't seriously know if he's any different from a baby in God's eyes. What I do know is that it's up to God. I don't know who goes to hell and who doesn't. I do know that if you want to be separate from God, he gives you what he wants, but people who just don't get it? I dunno. It's not my place to say. I make it a point never to answer the "where am I going when I die?" question. I usually tell people to ask God themselves.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Is it me - or does Minion suddenly sound a hell of a lot like Matthew Harrison Brady all the sudden? "God tells Brady what is good; to be against Brady is to be against God!"

There's nowhere I can't reach.

What are you talking about Lehah? I just said that I don't know what God is thinking...

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Fyodor, I think you should whip yourself daily. I bet that would make God sure that you weren't full of nasty, stinking pride.

Whereas me? Most arrogant son of a bitch ever created. And I LOVE it. I'll send you a postcard from HELL.

(Seriously. This is insane. Being proud is a sin. Because O SHIT you may put yourself on the same level of GOD!)

So. What are your thoughts on free will, Fyodor?

Minion, you expect a Muslim to even BOTHER reading the Gospel? Why should they? It's against THEIR religion.

And, I mean, how can you say they're WRONG?! Muslims believe in the SAME FUNDAMENTAL IDEAS that you Christians do.

This is wars are started, man.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Actually, Jesus is in the Koran. Muslims feel the same way about Jesus that the Jews do. Most of the people in the Koran are in the Bible. I can't help but think that Mohammad ripped the Koran off of the Bible, frankly.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Minion

What are you talking about Lehah? I just said that I don't know what God is thinking...

You're literlly sounding like you walked off the set of Inherit the Wind.

Minion: If a Muslim doesn't really understand the Gospel and never gets around to rejecting it, I don't seriously know if he's any different from a baby in God's eyes. What I do know is that it's up to God. I don't know who goes to hell and who doesn't. I do know that if you want to be separate from God, he gives you what he wants, but people who just don't get it?

LeHah: Is it me - or does Minion suddenly sound a hell of a lot like Matthew Harrison Brady all the sudden? "God tells Brady what is good; to be against Brady is to be against God!"

Minion: What are you talking about Lehah? I just said that I don't know what God is thinking...

===

Henry Drummond: Is that the way of things? God tells Brady what is good; to be against Brady is to be against God!

Matthew Harrison Brady: No! Every man is a free agent!

Henry Drummond: Then what is Bertram Cates doing in the Hillsboro Jail?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I'm saying I don't know, but I believe God will accomodate anyone who wants to be with Him. Far from telling you what the "way of things" is.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Minion

I think Christianity is right, but that's not to say that every other religion is 100% wrong.

Well, if you believe that you MUST accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior to get into Heaven (which is a requirement to be considered officially Christian), then yes, all other religions are 100% wrong, because they don't accept this.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Minion

I'm saying I don't know, but I believe God will accomodate anyone who wants to be with Him. Far from telling you what the "way of things" is.

Well, how can you say you don't know "the way of things" - but you can tell me God is accomodating anyone?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

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Well, if you believe that you MUST accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior to get into Heaven (which is a requirement to be considered officially Christian), then yes, all other religions are 100% wrong, because they don't accept this.

No, they're only wrong in that one respect, necessarily. Unfortunately, that's the most important part. It's definitely not 100%, though.

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Well, how can you say you don't know "the way of things" - but you can tell me God is accomodating anyone?

That's the kind of guy God seems to be, from what I understand and believe, based on my research and personal experience.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Minion

Actually, Jesus is in the Koran. Muslims feel the same way about Jesus that the Jews do. Most of the people in the Koran are in the Bible. I can't help but think that Mohammad ripped the Koran off of the Bible, frankly.

Who wouldn't acknowledge Jesus? He was a historical figure. I think he was a bullshit artist with a few tricks up his sleeves for the idiots, but hey. He was a pretty good dude. No one to worship, though. All those palms and bathing and stupid - ugh. Bothers me just to THINK about it. Prideless my ass.

Have you ever read the Koran, Minion? You may enjoy it. I think its a little more passionate than the Bible. Makes it sexier.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Uh, actually yeah I have read some of it and I own a copy. Haven't read it all, no. Have you?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

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No, they're only wrong in that one respect, necessarily. Unfortunately, that's the most important part. It's definitely not 100%, though.

Well, I'd consider it 100% since you go to Hell for not believing it. If you believe 90% of whatever else Christianity believes, it doesn't matter because you'll still go to hell, so why deal in percentages when there's such an absolute condition?

I was speaking idiomatically.

I think the fact that other religions have some things right just shows that God reveals things to everyone. He's trying to connect with everyone. I see Christianity as God's last effort to help people connect with him.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Minion

That's the kind of guy God seems to be, from what I understand and believe, based on my research and personal experience.

I'm glad you can get a know someone on such a deep personal level - but if I told you my invisible friend named Horthax The Sungod was a great guy and liked to eat smelly cheese, how would you take it?

I mean, are you so arrogant to say you've solved one of the greatest mysteries of all time?

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Minion

Uh, actually yeah I have read some of it and I own a copy. Haven't read it all, no. Have you?

Not all of it. But you'd be surprised.

I had this Jew in high school history class - Dr. Pulda. He converted, and made it a point to teach us EVERYTHING he could about the Koran. Our exposure was limited at the time, so he took it upon himself to teach us about it.

Whether or not it was RIGHT for him to teach it to us, I dont know. But I learned a lot about the religion and the Koran itself from him. We DID read passages in class.

He since died of cancer, I believe. I wonder if he went to Heaven or Jannah. Which are essentially the same place - "a place beautiful abode where, those who believe in only God, humble themselves to worship Him, do the good and avoid the evil, are promised to go after the end of this worldly life."

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Minion

I think the fact that other religions have some things right just shows that God reveals things to everyone. He's trying to connect with everyone. I see Christianity as God's last effort to help people connect with him.

Last effort? It happened 2000 years ago, and it was His last effort? He seems to be giving up pretty damn early. And what's point of God revealing things to everyone if He then makes one of His religions completely exclusive, supposedly holding an absolute truth that no other religion has? Is it like He's teasing them with just enough truth so they keep their faith, only to find out they still go to Hell when they die since they weren't Christian?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

Last effort? It happened 2000 years ago, and it was His last effort? He seems to be giving up pretty damn early. And what's point of God revealing things to everyone if He then makes one of His religions completely exclusive, supposedly holding an absolute truth that no other religion has? Is it like He's teasing them with just enough truth so they keep their faith, only to find out they still go to Hell when they die since they weren't Christian?

This is actually how a lot of cults work.

And yea, in the scheme of the entire history of man and his beliefs, even MONOTHEISM is a fairly new idea.

Which makes it even MORE questionable as a religion. I think we should go back to worshipping Amen Ra. He made more sense.



Sun worship. Its logical, in a sense.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Since i'm not clued up on Christianity and all the various permutations, do Lutherans believe in the Rapture or is that another sect? I used to know someone who did and she was mildly fearful for my soul because the simple fact that I didn't need a religion to tell me what was right and wrong meant that I was going to burn. I asked her about babies and starving kids in Africa, many of whom don't even get the chance to learn to read, let alone read the Bible. Her response was iffy so someone should clarify.

I'm not religious myself but I nevertheless consider myself to be more of a decent guy that most people I know, and people tell me this too (it's not my PRIDE :O). You can acquire and develop a perfectly fair and decent moral framework without religion, but experiences can help to shape that.

For Sass (who probably already knows all this):
http://www.pbs.org/muhammad/film2.shtml

It's very brief but I didn't know any of this and it's my heritage so maybe I should get off my ass and actually look into it ^_^.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

All Christians basically believe in the rapture, but I don't see why that belief would make anyone particularly zealous.

The thing about Africans who can't read and babies I've address earlier in the thread. There is a concept of accountability in both Christianity and Judaism. Basically you have to hear and understand the Gospel in order to be accountable.

So what happens to the people who don't? That's largely up to God. I've heard some weird stories from people who had never heard of Christianity and were mysteriously lead to it (I've actually met these people). I believe God gives you everything you need to make the decision. He is fair and just. If you want to be with Him, He'll give you every chance to make that choice. If not, He gives you what you want (or, at least, what you think you want).

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?