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Fluffykitten McGrundlepuss
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 12:28 PM Local time: Oct 14, 2011, 06:28 PM #26 of 73
I can tell you now that this whole movement thing has received exactly zero news coverage over here so I don't really know what it is people are protesting about. I followed Sass's link but nowhere there does it actually state what their issue is.

I'm guessing though it's one of these "Big businesses are greedy and taking all the money and not paying enough tax and now we're all poor" deals? Kinda ironic to see that in the most capitalist country on the planet. Free healthcare not looking so silly now is it?

There's people over here banging on about how terrible it is that companies are registered in tax havens and not paying their full rate of corporation tax and unemployment is getting a bit silly here too but it'll stop being an issue once job prospects get so bad that all the Eastern Europeans leave for home, enough people can't afford to buy or rent a house so living costs fall and we kick all the lazy people off benefits so the government have cash to spend on infrastructure.

Essentially countries are going through a massive settling and adjustment and eventually market forces will balance things out. We have the advantage of being able to up sticks and move to another country pretty easily so things'll calm down in Europe long before they do in the US but eventually things will sort themselves up.

I'm surprised more Americans don't realise this, you guys pretty much invented the concept of a market-led economy.

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RacinReaver
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 01:14 PM Local time: Oct 14, 2011, 11:14 AM #27 of 73
I think a number of people are upset at the large-scale government bailouts given to large banks and companies, yet many people don't feel they're seeing any benefit from how their tax dollars were spent.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 01:23 PM Local time: Oct 14, 2011, 01:23 PM #28 of 73
Quote:
I can tell you now that this whole movement thing has received exactly zero news coverage over here
That's not true. One of the defining images of this whole thing first showed up in the Daily Mail.

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Old Oct 14, 2011, 03:03 PM #29 of 73
eventually market forces will balance things out
Shin, I know you're doing pretty well for yourself but this in itself does not make "The Market" a benevolent nature spirit that fixes all problems. You're being significantly more naive about economics than Radez, which is more impressive than I can really convey in words.

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The middle class in the States has been waiting about 30 years for "The Market" to kick in and make everything magical sunshine again. It's a stubborn little thing, that Market.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Last edited by The unmovable stubborn; Oct 14, 2011 at 03:04 PM. Reason: This member got a little too post happy.
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 03:50 PM Local time: Oct 14, 2011, 09:50 PM #30 of 73
That's not true. One of the defining images of this whole thing first showed up in the Daily Mail.
I'm not nearly biggoted enough to read the Hate Mail so I must have missed that.

I'm not being naive, Pang, I'm being deliberately obtuse (Borderline trolling really). The problem with relying on natural market correction is that there are no truly free markets, even the most laisez faire government will step in eventually to try to help. If the government hadn't stepped in to bail out our banks over here, then some would have gone bust, people would have lost their savings and jobs and been unable to keep up the repayments on the mortgages on their second homes. The remaining banks would have repossesed a load of them then sold them on. The glut of available housing would have bottomed out house prices, the income from the sales would have propped up the banks and hey presto, corrected market.

Of course in the mean time there would have been abject poverty across the country, a huge drop in wage rates, civil unrest and it would have been generally shit for ages before we emerged utopian the other side. No government is going to do that though, except a mentalist dictatorship and that's not a form of government known for standing back and letting people get on with it.

The difficulty states have and the whole reason why theoretical economics is largely pointless in these situations is that political systems the world over rely on keeping the populace happy in the short term. Sure the long game is the best idea on paper but you can't explain that to the electorate unless they all have economics degrees. There's also the fact that you can't run a government on a purely economic basis. Social security requires government intervention, the market will never support people who for whatever reason are unable to be economically active because the only people with a demand for that are the people who need help because they have no money.

My suggestion that the Austrian school of economics would fix everything is of course a naive one because in the real world, you can't just leave people to die of starvation in the street without becoming an oppresive police state.

I know a bit about economics really, I just choose to ignore it.

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Old Oct 14, 2011, 06:34 PM Local time: Oct 14, 2011, 11:34 PM 1 #31 of 73
That's not true. One of the defining images of this whole thing first showed up in the Daily Mail.
I just came in here to scoff and hope that you were being ironic.

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Old Oct 17, 2011, 04:54 AM Local time: Oct 17, 2011, 02:54 AM #32 of 73
A friend dragged me into participating in the whole thing tonight in my city. The grievances do seem to be centralized on Wallstreet, the government's bailouts of banks, and by extension the general corruption of Washington who are thought to be bought lock stock and barrel by the gigantic corporations (Example: A custom United States flag was shown that replaced all the stars with name brand logos), there were also during a call-and-response part where everyone was suggesting ideas a general anger at a great number of other topics, such as general Anti-War sentiments, a lone 9/11 conspiracy sign "Google Building 7", and of course the obscenely low taxes that corporations actually end up paying (A sign I saw: "I paid more Taxes than G.E. last year") and just... you know, a "I'm Sick of this shit" mentality that everyone seemed to be suffering as a collective whole.

Now one thing that I did like was that, at least today, everyone was very peaceful and respectful, even to the Police who showed up later (Although 20+ officers is a little excessive) that were mentioned in the marching "We are the 99%, Police are the 99%", with peace signs shown at the Police as a gesture of no-harm-intended. For the most part they seemed content to sit back. Of course I wasn't there too late in the evening so I don't know if things heated up.

While I'm still a bit skeptical and cynical that this movement will go anywhere, In seeing so many diverse Americans showing up for this-- some in wheelchairs, some well-off looking, some very hippie, some hipster looking, a few punk-anarchists, etc., I was inspired to show up again in the future and help out in some small way if I can.

Note: I have a job, but its low-paying, I live in a house but its due to living with my extended family. I don't have a credit card but I have student loans and a degree which hasn't gotten me anywhere I wanted to go. I'm about half and half on good and bad ends in my life, so perhaps that's a bit why I'm teetering on the edge of this. Go ahead and mock me if you like, I am not saying this movement is perfect by any stretch, but I empathize with many of the reasons this whole thing has started and well, I need to do something: I'm nowhere near rich enough to buy a lobbyist in congress, nor can I go into these corporations and fix their finances (nor would I want to: I'm no accountant), so this is the best I can do at this point in my life, as far as I know.

On a tangentially related note, I'll be closing my BoA account soon and moving to a credit union most likely, for a number of reasons including but not limited to these protests developing so uh, that's one small thing.

Anyway, I need to sleep, good night and peace to you all.

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Old Oct 17, 2011, 05:51 AM 1 #33 of 73
I have been itching to go down and join the many down in Zucotti Park. Unfortunately with my school and my work schedule it has been impossible to protest. I have walked by Zucotti park many times and am always amazed by the crowd that is still there camping out and occupying the spot. I only hope that this movement doesn't lose any steam and continues through the elections next year.

Also, I happen to be in the same spot as most of the people protesting. Having been stuck in the same level on the corporate ladder without any promotions in sight, coupled by a tough job market with an extremely unfair job market where people get better positions just by "knowing someone" as opposed to being functionally capable to perform the job well (We have a woman here at the office who drinks heavily and continues her party in her office. A few officemates have seen her come in trashed beyond relief, not to mention the constant sniffles makes one assume she has a chronic and consistant cold, or loves cocaine. She got the job cause she's a friend of many of the senior partners. Oh the sexual favor(s) she might have done.)

I apologize for the bit of the rant at the end, the workday started, kinda wish I was at Zucotti Park

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Old Oct 19, 2011, 09:05 PM 1 #34 of 73
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Old Oct 23, 2011, 01:20 PM Local time: Oct 23, 2011, 02:20 PM #35 of 73
Eric Cantor was supposed to speak at my school on Friday and canceled at the last minute because the school opened up 300 seats to the public. "Occupy Philly" had planned to march to campus and protest his appearance. So he cancels, and the protesters show up anyway. Then they go inside and basically block the entrance of an academic building and start shouting "ERIC CANTOR WE'RE INSIDE, ERIC CANTOR YOU CAN'T HIDE" knowing that he's not there, along with "SHAME, SHAME, SHAME" to the students and a bunch of other random chants.

Then some guys in one frat started chanting "Get a job!" and held up a sign that said "Get in our tax bracket"

YouTube Video

Cue outrage. Honestly, I don't really care about the Occupy movement at all, but I felt like I was getting dumber watching the protest.

Controversial speaker is set to speak. Organize protests against speaker. Show up even after the speaker has canceled. Protest against the university students who have no clue wtf is going on. Get upset when they don't respond nicely? Grow up. Comments online are like "Sorry that we inconvenience you. We're only fighting for freedom" or "Don't be upset with the protesters, we're just so upset with inequality and want to be heard!" which is fine, but that doesn't mean I can't think you're an idiot when you go about it in an abrasive and incoherent manner.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Last edited by nabhan; Oct 23, 2011 at 01:22 PM.
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Old Oct 23, 2011, 02:15 PM Local time: Oct 23, 2011, 02:15 PM #36 of 73
Going about the protesting in a dumb way is no way to gain support obviously, and this video shows that this situation is a whole load of dumb and ridiculous. But taunting a mob and then causing shit is no different than this:

YouTube Video

Quote:
Eric Cantor was supposed to speak at my school on Friday and canceled at the last minute because the school opened up 300 seats to the public.
This is part of the real problem too. "Shit, I might have to answer uncomfortable questions. Time to bail the fuck out."

Coulter has done this too of course, along with morons on both sides of the political divide. But canceling and running away because you're scared shitless shows a complete lack of trust in your convictions and it's a whole load of horsefuck. If you're gonna spout stupid shit, at least stand up and spout it. Cain at least has that on these guys.

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Old Oct 23, 2011, 03:00 PM Local time: Oct 23, 2011, 01:00 PM #37 of 73
I like the "Get a job" chant coupled with the person's sign that says, "I'd prefer not to."

I was speaking idiomatically.
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Old Oct 23, 2011, 03:42 PM 6 #38 of 73
I think we can put this down to the intense stupidity that immediately affects any human who enters the physical confines of a "business school".

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And let's face it nobody gets an MBA because they want to do something useful for the world, I'm okay with these students being protested if nobody else is handy

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Last edited by The unmovable stubborn; Oct 23, 2011 at 03:49 PM. Reason: This member got a little too post happy.
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Old Oct 23, 2011, 05:46 PM 1 #39 of 73
Wonder if those guys were inconvenienced on their way in to work?

sorry radez much love tho

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Old Oct 23, 2011, 08:15 PM 4 #41 of 73
>Wall Streets Face when protestors



Jam it back in, in the dark.

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Old Nov 15, 2011, 11:58 AM Local time: Nov 15, 2011, 12:58 PM #42 of 73
Well, apparently the powers that be have had enough of this movement.

Just looking at front page news today I saw that at least three Occupy camps have either been evicted or will be shortly. New York's Zucotti park was cleared by police during the night, the Occupy Toronto camp woke up to eviction notices being handed out and posted on tents, and the Occupy London camp is likely to be served one soon from what I've read.

I don't know how much interest remains for this here, but I thought I'd post it anyway in the interest of furthering discussion.

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Old Nov 15, 2011, 12:20 PM 1 #43 of 73
Well, what did you expect? In the entire history of civilization, protest marches have not done a single thing. Unfortunately, you need something like the Watts Riots or people fighting police dogs because they have no other choice to get stuff moving.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
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Old Nov 15, 2011, 12:21 PM Local time: Nov 15, 2011, 06:21 PM #44 of 73
In the US though the authorities can just turn up with the police and move people on. Over here if they try to evict the campers outside St Pauls there will probably be a months long legal battle before anyone even thinks of going anywhere.

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Well, what did you expect? In the entire history of civilization, protest marches have not done a single thing.


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Last edited by Fluffykitten McGrundlepuss; Nov 15, 2011 at 12:23 PM. Reason: This member got a little too post happy.
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Old Nov 15, 2011, 01:03 PM Local time: Nov 15, 2011, 02:03 PM #45 of 73
I guess the question that is on my mind is does this signal a death knell of sorts for the movement?

I'm not convinced that it is, simply because it's pretty clear that a lot of the people in the movement are pretty adamant about adapting to whatever the situation becomes. On the other hand, if police are going to hound them wherever they go and not let them set up camp anywhere, I don't see how people will have any other choice but to leave.

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Old Nov 15, 2011, 01:46 PM Local time: Nov 15, 2011, 01:46 PM 1 #46 of 73
I guess the question that is on my mind is does this signal a death knell of sorts for the movement?
No, but shit like this does.

Well, shit like that and all the crime and disease Occupy camps attract.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
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Old Nov 15, 2011, 01:58 PM #47 of 73
It all depends on how committed the protesters are. At this point, the public at large has grown tired of hippies camping out in their public places, and I don't think they've made a huge long-term impact. They've gotten people talking about financial reform, but if they go away now, I doubt lawmakers are going to feel pressured to make changes. As much as I hate to agree with LeHah, it's going to take some violence to stir up public outrage. Not from the protesters, but if more and more videos of police attacking peaceful (or at least not agressive) protesters, then maybe that will spur some real change.

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Old Nov 15, 2011, 02:12 PM #48 of 73
Maybe if the Occupy folks had a single (or at most, two or three) CLEAR goals (I no longer know what exactly the Occupy movement stands for), or didn't have retarded ways of expressing those goals (talking about the redistribution of wealth in those exact terms is fucking stupid, sorry), then maybe this would all have an effect. I think it's dumb that the police are allowed to evict protesters, given, y'know, the Constitution and all, but still. The movement is horribly watered down and without any sort of central leadership. I mean, to extend the point Shin made: would the Civil Rights movement have done as well as it did without the charismatic, well-spoken, and honestly beautiful human being that was Dr. King?

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Old Nov 15, 2011, 05:59 PM Local time: Nov 15, 2011, 05:59 PM 3 #49 of 73
The point is that it DOESN'T have clear goals, though. They've accomplished a lot, in making discussion on many of these topics actually occurring both in American (and international) households and to some extent politically. The movement is about being discontent with the entire fucking system. Not some arbitrary list.

Having a list that says DEMAND ONE: WE DEMAND FREE BREAKFAST BURRITOS FOR LIFE would make it easier for the media to shit on this list and mock it. Part of Occupy's strength is how difficult it is to pigeonhole the whole damn thing.

The outliers and fagboats shitting up both sides of the front lines (asshole cops and twatrocket protesters damaging property) are unfortunately setting the tone of this thing and causing too much of a bullshit focus. On the whole, this movement isn't negative in the least.

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Old Nov 15, 2011, 06:17 PM 5 #50 of 73
See, the problem with appointing a quote-unquote "leader" is that then the leader becomes a target. It's all fine to lionize Dr. King but let's not forget that some asshole shot him precisely because he was an identifiable leader of a movement threatening to upset the status quo. That's the part of the whole CIVIL RIGHTS GLORIOUS SUCCESS STORY everybody kind of mumbles over.

Am I suggesting that whatever random leader you decide to designate (really, just pick whoever) is going to have an "unfortunate accident"? No, but I think we're all smart enough to understand how much easier it is to destroy one man's reputation than the reputations of thousands.

(And, of course, when you designate someone the "leader" of a group you get to dismiss everyone else's agency since they're all just followers now don't you know.)

Maybe if the Occupy folks had a single (or at most, two or three) CLEAR goals (I no longer know what exactly the Occupy movement stands for)
At this point I just have to assume some of you motherfuckers are either willfully ignorant or just straight-up deaf.

Here, look. The way modern government is in bed with corporate capital is straight-up awful. Ok? Is this a succinct enough sound bite for you? If it helps, imagine a picture of that and there's a cat in the picture and the cat is going "DO NOT WANT". That is, in essence, their function. To complain. This is not a picturesque process but it is necessary because if no one talks about it then it doesn't fucking change.

Evicting people from parks isn't the "death knell" of jack shit. Oh no we'll have to go and be loud and cantankerous somewhere else! Surely you have slain the dragon this time, brave officers.

V 2011 and people are still scared of "communists" and "anarchists". srsly wut

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Last edited by The unmovable stubborn; Nov 15, 2011 at 06:54 PM.
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