Israel invades Gaza

No, I do not see the humor in bombs and rockets.

Not very much.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Oh you know what I mean. Bleh.

I was speaking idiomatically.

No, nobody can understand what you mean because you keep typing with your giant shrieking vagina instead of your hands.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Anyways...

To get back on topic, it looks like the UN is halting aid missions into Gaza as the Israeli's have been attacking their convoys.

UN halts aid to Gaza, citing Israeli attacks on staff

"Sure, we'll let aid come in for a few hours every other day, we'll even stop shooting at the 'rabs for you, but now we'll just practice with you!"

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Cetra

No actually, you measure culture by propriety. Lets look at the most prosperous nations in history. Oh look at that its a list dominated by Western Culture civilizations. Oh are where are the Arab nations? Sitting along the bottom with the African civilizations. But we can just continue to refuse to ignore any possible correlation here. I mean doing so has just worked out so well for the world so far.

Oh but the Arab nations want to continue to blame western culture for holding them back. I mean its just could not possibility be that Arab culture is holding itself back. No need for reform here! If they can wipe Western culture off the planet Arab culture will prosper again!

You're an idiot. If you had any sense of history you would understand just how devastating colonialism was to Africa and the Middle East. It's not that once colonial powers left everything went back to the way it once was.

National borders were arbitrarily drawn, dividing similar peoples and creating artificial distinctions. Infrastructure was built that was designed to prevent regional trading (all the railroads led to ports). Farmers were forced to grow cash crops that destroyed the soil and left them without sustenance. Brutal regimes killed hundreds of thousands. Of course, that was 50+ years ago. Then the IMF and World Bank came around and gave crippling loans to desperate governments, knowing that they would never be able to afford the interest.

I'm not a post-modernist, but to say that Africans and Arabs don't have culture as defined by your arbitrary definition is simply fucking retarded.

Also, let's forget entirely about Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait, Jordan and all the other Arab nations that enjoy relatively high standards of living with less of the religious fundamentalism. Even Iran, the predominantly Shiite outsider hated by Arabs is lumped into the group and given a bad rep when most of the population is quite progressive, but ruled by Ayatollah's.

oh whatever. lol at the above

SHOW THEM MOZLEMS WHOS BOSS

edit: MUTHAFUCKAAAASSSS



What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Wear my heart on my sleeve.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Israel's unrelenting attack on Gaza is so unjustified. But this thread brings to light what Israel's true intentions for the invasion may be: oil reserves off Gaza's coastline.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by jurgen

Israel's unrelenting attack on Gaza is so unjustified. But this thread brings to light what Israel's true intentions for the invasion may be: oil reserves off Gaza's coastline.

Protip: If you'd like to be taken seriously, don't link to a website that talks about 9/11 truth and UFO invasions.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Well, although that thread is from a conspiracy forum, it refers to multiple articles from reputable news sources to back up its claim. I could have just provided a link to one of those news sources, but I think providing a collective of sources from that thread would be more helpful.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Israel could violate Gaza's economic exploitation zone and nobody would care. I'm not even sure if the PLA is entitled to those kind of rights.

Israel invaded Gaza to time the post-Christmas news cycle and Bush leaving office. As much as Obama is probably going to support Israel as much as every other president he's still a wild card so Israel is doing their best to damage Hamas to the point where it'll take them years to recover.

I was speaking idiomatically.

There was a particularly poignant piece on Al-Jazeera earlier where a Norweigan doctor working in Gaza was on the phone talking about the situation. There's been no power for a fortnight now, 33 ambulance crewmen have been killed trying to help people, the Israelis seem to be just indiscriminately dropping bombs on civilians and he reckons they've barely hurt Hamas at all.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Israel is hurting HAMAS. A HAMAS higher up can't take a shit without Mossad knowing about it. Problem is for every HAMAS they kill you're also counting about 4 kids 8 women and 3 men. vv

FELIPE NO

I read an opinion piece today by Mona Charen (a neocon rabble-rouser, but still) the nugget of truth nestled in there was that Israel is damned if they do and damned if they don't. Fundamentalist papers and the Hamas government are more likely to see Israel's concessions as signs of weakness than as gestures of goodwill.

Now given, they haven't been as discriminating as they should be, but with Hamas' tendency to use civilian structures as bunkers, is there a way that Israel can defend itself without drawing international ire?

Most amazing jew boots

Not really, which is what I going for before.

Even that's not the entirety of it, though. For Israel, the ire of the international community is nothing compared to that of the Palestinians living in all this. By invading Gaza to rid themselves of Hamas the Israelis have only united and inspired Palestinian youth to act, effectively swelling Hamas' as-yet-untouched ranks. But again, what would you have they do? Sit idly by as missiles explode on their own land?

It's a hell of a situation, that's for sure.

Most amazing jew boots

And one of the most annoying things about all of this is that neither side will stop the violence. Both sides have turned down the UN's much called for cease-fire, saying that they will not stop until the other side stops. Both sides want to have the last word in this fight, and I'm not sure if peace is even going to be possible at the rate Israel and Hamas leaders are going.

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by Skexis

Now given, they haven't been as discriminating as they should be, but with Hamas' tendency to use civilian structures as bunkers, is there a way that Israel can defend itself without drawing international ire?

Hmm, I wonder how Israel can defend itself from a movement born from opposition to apartheid?

hmmmmmmmmmmm

hhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmhhhhhhmmmmmm

People talk about HAMAS "hiding in civilian centers" like they should stand out in the middle of a field and wait for Israeli F-16s to line up the laser designators. These are weekend warriors to begin with so they're already embedded in the civilian population as they're, durp durr, civilians. Cry and moan and gnash your teeth about how HAMAS uses human shield tactics all you want but this is how asymmetric wars are fought, it's just that in this particular instance the IDF doesn't give a shit about human shields.

The "best" route for Israel has already been chosen, since Israeli policy makers have committed themselves to crippling HAMAS and ensuring their defeat in the Palestinian civil war. If Israel was looking for a long term solution to sectarian violence meted out by unguided rockets that kill a handfull of people a year their best course would have been to do nothing.



This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Quote:

It wouldn't be out of the question if Jewish settlers were stopped from encroaching on Palestinian land and the Israelis themselves stopped electing hard right fascists like the Likkud.

Why would that make a difference? Even when Israel reversed its settlement policy by pulling out of Gaza in 2005 Hamas wasn’t satisfied. I can’t think of one occasion when the PA or Hamas ever took the initiative in extending some kind of peace offer to Israel. Maybe if the Palestinians hadn’t elected a party that wants to drive Israel into the sea this conflict could have been avoided...
Kadima isn’t perfect, I’ll concede that, but they’ve been more willing than Hamas to pursue peace. No other country would absorb rocket attacks without reacting for as long as Israel did. I don't know what reality you live in if you think people are going to tolerate their government not acting when rockets are being launched daily near their homes.
EDIT:
Your cartoon is fucked. Think about it, if you’re entrusted to defend your country, and you see the enemy launching rockets dangerously close to civilian areas, which are killing your own people, what are you going to do? Are you just going to sit by and let it happen?
Furthermore, are you really going to have any sympathy for someone who knowingly congregates near a place where rockets are being launched into Israel? You know it’s going to be a target, so why are you staying there? It’s not that hard to hear rockets being launched from your backyard. Get the fuck out if you’re too chicken shit to throw them off your land.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Hamas isn't a Gaza separatist movement, numbnuts.

But then I'm debating political nuance with a dbzatar.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Quote:

Get the fuck out if you’re too chicken shit to throw them off your land.

Wow. Isn't the Gaza strip densely populated to a ridiculous degree? Even the best of Israeli guided munitions wouldn't be able to hit the launch sites without killing tons of innocent civilians.

Factoring in the ground force that's firing on aid workers, we can see it's unlikely fleeing would get you anything other than a quick trip to the grave.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Look, geopolitical realities are no excuse when you're living next to terrorists. Maybe if you don't want to get bombed by the IDF you should leave Gaza.

*gets shot at IDF checkpoint*

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by lordjames

Your cartoon is fucked. Think about it, if you’re entrusted to defend your country, and you see the enemy launching rockets dangerously close to civilian areas, which are killing your own people, what are you going to do? Are you just going to sit by and let it happen?
Furthermore, are you really going to have any sympathy for someone who knowingly congregates near a place where rockets are being launched into Israel? You know it’s going to be a target, so why are you staying there? It’s not that hard to hear rockets being launched from your backyard. Get the fuck out if you’re too chicken shit to throw them off your land.

Are you suggesting that when the IRA were perpetuating a bombing campaign against train stations and shopping centres in mainland Britain, the best course of action for the UK government would have been to indiscriminately blow the shit out of south Belfast? Maybe send the tanks into Dublin because a lot of IRA members lived there too you know? Quite a lot of the IRA's funding came from New York you know, maybe we should have started blowing up Manhattan? We all know how popular a move that turned out not to be...

Edit:



What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Bradylama

Hamas isn't a Gaza separatist movement, numbnuts.

But then I'm debating political nuance with a dbzatar.

I never said they were separatists.

Originally Posted by Bradylama

Look, geopolitical realities are no excuse when you're living next to terrorists. Maybe if you don't want to get bombed by the IDF you should leave Gaza.

*gets shot at IDF checkpoint*

Well, if staying in a target-zone is your preference, that’s fine. It wouldn’t be mine.

Originally Posted by Effstar

Are you suggesting that when the IRA were perpetuating a bombing campaign against train stations and shopping centres in mainland Britain, the best course of action for the UK government would have been to indiscriminately blow the shit out of south Belfast? Maybe send the tanks into Dublin because a lot of IRA members lived there too you know? Quite a lot of the IRA's funding came from New York you know, maybe we should have started blowing up Manhattan? We all know how popular a move that turned out not to be...

Maybe my history’s a bit off, but I’m pretty sure Britain conducted military operations against the IRA. If you read my post I wasn’t suggesting anything except that some kind of reaction was needed. Do I think saturated bombings are going solve the problem in the long-term? No, but I do think that Hamas’ rocket attacks have to end, and the easiest way to do that in the short-run is to bomb their launching sites. Of course, there’s always Brady’s advice, which is to just let Hamas fire rockets into Israel indefinitely (post 91). If we just leave them alone long enough eventually they’ll see the error of their ways and stop, right?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by lordjames

I never said they were separatists.

You said Israel withdrew from Gaza and ended their settlement program, as if that was supposed to make Hamas go "gee thanks guys" and just completely ignore everything that's been going on in the West Bank.

Not like Israel has left Gaza alone, mind. There's still the economic strangulation and fun stuff like low-flying Israeli jets creating sonic booms that cause health problems like damaging children's ears.

Quote:

Well, if staying in a target-zone is your preference, that’s fine. It wouldn’t be mine.

Yeah, they should have just put that children's hospital on wheels and rolled it into Egypt. Or hey maybe the aid workers should leave as well since clearly marked vehicles and UN schools are also military targets.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by lordjames

Maybe my history’s a bit off, but I’m pretty sure Britain conducted military operations against the IRA.

Well, they put up checkpoints to search cars for bombs and guns and they assisted the police in arresting suspects when need be but they managed to avoid using bombs or tanks throughout. Yes, it was a long conflict and yes there were some civilian casualties but Israel has killed more civilians since invading Gaza than the entire IRA/loyalist war did in it's duration. The way to stop people killing civilians is not to kill more civilians.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I haven't really been reading the arguments in this thread, but I read an article the other day that I thought was quite well done and I thought it might be appreciated here.

Spoiler:

The Gaza Ghetto and Western Cant

By TARIQ ALI

The assault on the Gaza Ghetto, planned over six months and executed with perfect timing was designed largely to help the incumbent parties triumph in the forthcoming Israeli elections. The dead Palestinians are little more than election fodder in a cynical contest between the Right and the Far Right in Israel. Washington and its EU allies, perfectly aware that Gaza was about to be assaulted, as in the case of Lebanon a few years, sit back and watch. Washington, as is its wont, blames the pro-Hamas Palestinians, with Obama and Bush singing from the same AIPAC hymn sheet.

The EU politicians, having observed the build-up, the siege, the collective punishment inflicted on Gaza, the targeting of civilians, etc [See Harvard scholar Sara Roy’s chilling essay in the latest LRB] were convinced that it was the rocket attacks that had ‘provoked’ Israel but called on both sides to end the violence, with nil effect. The moth-eaten Mubarik dictatorship in Egypt and NATO’s favourite Islamists in Ankara, failed to even register a symbolic protest by recalling their Ambassadors from Israel. China and Russia did not convene a meeting of the UNSC to discuss the crisis.

As result of official apathy, one outcome of this latest attack will be to inflame Muslim communities throughout the world and swell the ranks of those very organisations that the West claims it is combating in the ‘war against terror’.

The bloodshed in Gaza raises broader strategic questions for both sides, issues related to recent history. One fact that needs to be recognised is that there is no Palestinian Authority. There never was one. The Oslo Accords were an unmitigated disaster for the Palestinians, creating a set of disconnected and shrivelled Palestinian ghettoes under the permanent watch of a brutal enforcer.

The PLO, once the repository of Palestinian hope, became little more than a supplicant for EU money. Western enthusiasm for democracy stops when those opposed to its policies are elected to office. The West and Israel tried everything to secure a Fatah victory: Palestinian voters rebuffed the concerted threats and bribes of the ‘international community’ in a campaign that saw Hamas members and other oppositionists routinely detained or assaulted by the IDF, their posters confiscated or destroyed, us and EU funds channelled into the Fatah campaign, and US Congressmen announcing that Hamas should not be allowed to run. Even the timing of the election was set by the determination to rig the outcome. Scheduled for the summer of 2005, it was delayed till January 2006 to give Abbas time to distribute assets in Gaza—in the words of an Egyptian intelligence officer: ‘the public will then support the Authority against Hamas’. Popular desire for a clean broom after ten years of corruption, bullying and bluster under Fatah proved stronger than all of this.

Hamas’s electoral triumph was treated as an ominous sign of rising fundamentalism, and a fearsome blow to the prospects of peace with Israel, by rulers and journalists across the Atlantic world. Immediate financial and diplomatic pressures were applied to force Hamas to adopt the same policies as those whom it defeated at the polls.
Uncompromised by the Palestinian Authority’s combination of greed and dependency, the self-enrichment of its servile spokesmen and policemen, and their acquiescence in a ‘peace process’ that has brought only further expropriation and misery to the population under them, Hamas offered the alternative of a simple example. Without any of the resources of its rival, it set up clinics, schools, hospitals, vocational training and welfare programmes for the poor. Its leaders and cadres lived frugally, within reach of ordinary people. It is this response to everyday needs that has won Hamas the broad basis of its support, not daily recitation of verses from the Koran.

How far its conduct in the second Intifada has given it an additional degree of credibility is less clear. Its armed attacks on Israel, like those of Fatah’s Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigade or Islamic Jihad, have been retaliations against an occupation far more deadly than any actions it has ever undertaken. Measured on the scale of IDF killings, Palestinian strikes have been few and far between. The asymmetry was starkly exposed during Hamas’s unilateral ceasefire, begun in June 2003, and maintained throughout the summer despite the Israeli campaign of raids and mass arrests, which followed, in which some three hundred Hamas cadres were seized from the West Bank. On 19 August 2003 a self-proclaimed ‘Hamas’ cell from Hebron, disowned and denounced by the official leadership, blew up a bus in West Jerusalem, upon which Israel promptly assassinated the Hamas ceasefire’s negotiator, Ismail Abu Shanab. Hamas in turn responded. In return, the Palestinian Authority and Arab states cut funding to its charities and, in September 2003, the EU declared the whole Hamas movement to be a terrorist organization—a long-standing demand of Tel Aviv.

What has actually distinguished Hamas in a hopelessly unequal combat is not dispatch of suicide bombers, to which a range of competing groups resorted, but its superior discipline—demonstrated by its ability to enforce a self-declared ceasefire against Israel over the past year. All civilian deaths are to be condemned, but since Israel is their principal practitioner, Euro-American cant serves only to expose those who utter it. Overwhelmingly, the boot of murder is on the other foot, ruthlessly stamped into Palestine by a modern army equipped with jets, tanks and missiles in the longest armed oppression of modern history. ‘Nobody can reject or condemn the revolt of a people that has been suffering under military occupation for forty-five years against occupation force’: the words of General Shlomo Gazit, former chief of Israeli military intelligence, in 1993.

The real grievance of the EU and US against Hamas is that it refused to accept the capitulation of the Oslo Accords, and has rejected every subsequent effort, from Taba to Geneva, to pass off their calamities on the Palestinians. The West’s priority ever since was to break this resistance. Cutting off funding to the Palestinian Authority is an obvious weapon with which to bludgeon Hamas into submission. Boosting the presidential powers of Abbas—as publicly picked for his post by Washington, as was Karzai in Kabul—at the expense of the Legislative Council is another.

No serious efforts were made to negotiate with the elected Palestinian leadership. I doubt if Hamas could have been rapidly suborned to Western and Israel but it would not have been unprecedented. Hamas’s programmatic heritage remains mortgaged to the most fatal weakness of Palestinian nationalism: the belief that the political choices before it are either rejection of the existence of Israel altogether, or acceptance of the dismembered remnants of a fifth of the country. From the fantasy maximalism of the first to the pathetic minimalism of the second, the path is all too short, as the history of Fatah has shown. The test for Hamas is not whether it can be house-trained to the satisfaction of Western opinion, but whether it can break with this crippling tradition. Soon after the Hamas victory I was asked in public by a Palestinian what I would do in their place. ‘Dissolve the Palestinian Authority’, was my response and end the make-belief. To do so would situate the Palestinian national cause on its proper basis, with the demand that the country and its resources be divided equitably, in proportion to two populations that are equal in size—not 80 per cent to one and 20 per cent to the other, a dispossession of such iniquity that no self-respecting people will ever submit to it in the long run. The only acceptable alternative is a single state for Jews and Palestinians alike, in which the exactions of Zionism are repaired.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?