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Lord Styphon
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Old Nov 15, 2011, 06:50 PM Local time: Nov 15, 2011, 06:50 PM 1 #51 of 73
Quote:
The point is that it DOESN'T have clear goals, though.
Well, that's just stupid. If the movement doesn't have any clear goals and just exists as an unorganized mass to complain, all it's doing is inviting groups with goals and organization (like various strains of Communists and anarchists, who are currently aligned in their desire to destroy capitalism) to co-opt it for their own purposes.

If you don't want the Communist or anarchist agenda to become, de facto, the Occupy movement's agenda, Occupy needs to put forward one of its own. Just complaining isn't going to do anything, and letting the Black Bloc and the Reds be the face of the movement isn't going to make the general public more sympathetic.

It would also help to stop all the assaults and rapes. Seriously, that shit ain't cool.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
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Old Nov 15, 2011, 07:08 PM 3 #52 of 73
I think its fair to say that Occupy is rather post-modern in its construction.
That is to say that it is similar to Queer, in that its definition is the refusal of definition.
Such a movement cannot be co-opted by those with a structuralist agenda, as it is necessarily hostile to bullet points and hierarchical leadership structure.

The Tea Party was easily co-opted into partisan politics specifically because they structured their agenda, and could then be classified, used, and filed away conveniently by the media and in the public consciousness.

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Last edited by packrat; Nov 15, 2011 at 07:11 PM.
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Old Nov 15, 2011, 07:25 PM Local time: Nov 15, 2011, 08:25 PM #53 of 73
Though the movement as a whole may not be so clear-cut, the fact that general assemblies are held very frequently in most of the camps means that at the very least there is a well defined democratic aspect to the movement.

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Misogynyst Gynecologist
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Old Nov 15, 2011, 07:53 PM 1 #54 of 73
A thoughtful man whom I have deep respect for - but unfortunately he became a better symbol as a martyr than he did when he was alive. Similar to JFK.

The Watts Riots and the Detroit riots had a much more lasting effect on the American public.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
Maris
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Old Nov 16, 2011, 02:16 PM Local time: Nov 16, 2011, 09:16 PM 1 #55 of 73
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FELIPE NO
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Old Nov 16, 2011, 04:11 PM 1 #56 of 73
Ratty, queer as a political movement still has clear goals, despite its acceptance of all sorts of subcultures.

And Pang, don't get me wrong. I'm a firm believer in the idea that big corporations get all sorts of stupid bullshit from the government that doesn't make any goddamn sense. I do not want. My problem with occupy is that it's gotten away from being just that. It's turned into a shitstorm of a bitchfest, and what none of these people seem to understand is that bitching and complaining, by itself, doesn't get anything done. It's the start of something, but there needs to be more happening than just bitching.

I mean, I have to bite my tongue to stop myself from getting into a shouting match with my ever more conservative father when politics comes up. He talked about how he can't understand how the Occupy movement is being called a bunch of heroes for civil rights, while the Tea Party has been demonized as a bunch of racist ignorant hicks. I had to leave the room because we were at my grandmother's for her birthday, and I was not about to start fighting with him about how retarded that statement was.

Sometimes I think I make myself sound much more conservative than I actually am on here.

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Suddenly, Tina Belcher appeared in the doorway.
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Old Nov 16, 2011, 10:39 PM Local time: Nov 16, 2011, 11:39 PM #57 of 73
And Pang, don't get me wrong. I'm a firm believer in the idea that big corporations get all sorts of stupid bullshit from the government that doesn't make any goddamn sense. I do not want. My problem with occupy is that it's gotten away from being just that. It's turned into a shitstorm of a bitchfest, and what none of these people seem to understand is that bitching and complaining, by itself, doesn't get anything done. It's the start of something, but there needs to be more happening than just bitching.
I'm starting to lean towards this position myself, but I can't quite bring myself to say that nothing is being achieved, if only for the fact that, no matter what, the events of the last two months have at least gotten people's attention and that certainly is better than just getting news about politicians creative ways of helping people and the latest in sports-related drama.

What came up a lot in what I've read on the subject since I first read about the evictions yesterday was that it might possibly be the best thing that could have happened to this protest movement since yesterday because the press was starting to pile on about the living conditions in the camps. All this talk of drugs, violence and lack of salubrity was partially becoming the image of the movement to a lot of the common-folk who had started paying attention, and by kicking the protesters out in a dramatic fashion, rather than testing the resolve of the protesters to bear the winter, it has given them a means to regroup in a different way to pursue the ideas that emerged from the process, if in a somewhat different fashion.

I know that in a lot of places the camps are still present, so it may be a bit early to say that the protests won't just keep going the way they were, but at least it makes it possible that something more than bitching and whining will come out of this.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

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Old Nov 16, 2011, 11:18 PM 1 #58 of 73
bitching and complaining, by itself, doesn't get anything done. It's the start of something, but there needs to be more happening than just bitching.
I don't think anyone's disputing that, and I don't think anyone is claiming that bitching in and of itself is accomplishing anything. The point is to make people aware of the problems, to disseminate information, and to make the cause part of the national conversation.

What do you expect them to do instead? By definition these people are largely powerless. That is the essence of their complaint. I suppose if the entire mass of protestors across the country threw their funds together, they might have enough money to get one representative elected.

Quote:
He talked about how he can't understand how the Occupy movement is being called a bunch of heroes for civil rights, while the Tea Party has been demonized as a bunch of racist ignorant hicks.
In fairness, a significant part of the Tea Party has essentially the same complaints as Occupy does (although somewhat different ideas about how to solve them). In a less partisan world they'd be working together.

(Yes, a proportion of the Tea Party is a clusterfuck of racist hicks, but then a proportion of Occupy is teenage hippies following the crowd. I don't think it's fair to judge either group by their worst members.)

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Old Nov 17, 2011, 07:59 AM 1 #59 of 73
I don't think anyone's disputing that, and I don't think anyone is claiming that bitching in and of itself is accomplishing anything.
Unfortunately, the people I've talked to who support or have been to OWS think exactly this - and get very, very angry when I ask them if they've seen any results from standing around and yelling a lot (Not in those words but you get my meaning). They seem to be under the pretense that being Hippies 2.0 is going to get some kind of result when that original movement was a complete failure as well.

I like the reason these people are angry but talk about doing everything the wrong way.

What do you expect them to do instead? By definition these people are largely powerless.
Riot? I mean, I'm into the idea really. Nor looting or people coming to harm. But would *be* something. Its still an option. And I'd much rather see people riot now against a rotting establishment than in 20 years when people are rioting to break into a bread truck because no one can afford food anymore. (Something of a stretch but we'll see.)

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Old Dec 3, 2011, 07:54 PM 1 #60 of 73
So, since Occupy is all about the airing of grievances, does that mean that the 23rd is the movement's high holy day?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?
It was lunchtime at Wagstaff.
Touching butts had been banned by the evil Headmaster Frond.
Suddenly, Tina Belcher appeared in the doorway.
She knew what she had to do.
She touched Jimmy Jr's butt and changed the world.
Philia
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Old May 3, 2012, 01:25 AM #61 of 73
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Old May 3, 2012, 09:05 AM #62 of 73
This thread world have just gotten depressing.
So you can't protest where an elected official is speaking.

So what?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
Philia
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Old May 3, 2012, 09:16 AM #63 of 73
Oh. Even if I didn't catch that, the precedent that this is setting is worrying me either way.

For example, legal loopholes for what is an "elected official", "speaking", location, distance, even getting a permit for protesting is likely.

I should rephrase that, I do not have a whole lot of hope in the legal system when majority of our politicians are being paid to speak.

FELIPE NO

Last edited by Philia; May 3, 2012 at 09:21 AM.
eks
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Old May 3, 2012, 02:22 PM #64 of 73
So you can't protest where an elected official is speaking.

So what?
The elected officials have largely ignored this movement, so being able to get some direct contact would be beneficial. With this law, that's impossible to do without risking prison time.

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Old May 3, 2012, 02:34 PM #65 of 73
The elected officials have largely ignored this movement
Well to be honest - this movement isn't anything in the first place.

Yes people are angry and for good reason - but holding signs and screaming a lot isn't action. Its that whole "raising awareness" bullshit - the passive-aggressive "if I inform other people, then THEY can act on it!" mindset - thats the problem. Everyone is talking. No one is acting.

Of course the officials aren't taking this seriously. Anyone with two firing synapses can't.

As to this law, heres what it says - "Don't do protests during elected officials speeches, rallies, etc". Yeah. Okay. That didn't stop Ron Kovic or any of the other people who've acted instead of just talked.

If you are afraid of being arrested for what you believe in, you are chickenshit and what you believe in will not be taken seriously by anyone.

Jam it back in, in the dark.
eks
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Old May 3, 2012, 04:58 PM #66 of 73
As elected officials, isn't that their job? Don't we vote for them in the hopes that they will pass laws/regulations that prevent unfair actions by some people or encourage actions that are beneficial for everyone?

That's not entirely what that law does, either. It bans protesting from anywhere that's considered a '"National Special Security Risk", not just places where officials are speaking.

It's not that anyone's "afraid" of being arrested for standing up for themselves. It's that such a threat shouldn't exist to begin with. We're supposed to be able to speak and assemble freely, and that law directly contradicts that idea.

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Old May 3, 2012, 08:13 PM #67 of 73
eks... Read what LeHah said again. He's the only person that's making sense. Also, yeah, we vote people in in the hopes that they'll do what we would like them to do, but, let's face it: pork in bills wouldn't exist if politicians of all stripes weren't in it for themselves. Politicians suck ass. That's why this bill got turned into law.


So protest the bill. Get your ass arrested. That's the only way for this bill to be shown to be retarded.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.
It was lunchtime at Wagstaff.
Touching butts had been banned by the evil Headmaster Frond.
Suddenly, Tina Belcher appeared in the doorway.
She knew what she had to do.
She touched Jimmy Jr's butt and changed the world.
Watts
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Old Aug 20, 2012, 11:50 AM Local time: Aug 20, 2012, 09:50 AM #68 of 73
TL DR; The people will make demands, the politicians will make empty promises and threats, and nothing will change what is probably going to happen anyway. History is a bitch.

What has Occupy Wall Street really accomplished besides blocking downtown traffic? All their 1% rhetoric is Wal-Mart grade jingoism. Nobody does class warfare jingoism better then Marxists, who are noticeably absent from the political debate. This inspite of how hard government officials around the world are trying to prove them right. Marxists ranging from left wing intellectuals to the Soviet Czars predicted that capitalism would implode because the political landscape could not be united under one economic policy during a time of extreme economic crisis. This prediction is the most accurate when applied to the Europeon Union.

Spoiler:
When the euro was introduced the average German started paying more for basically everything from food to toilet paper. While German-based multinationals saw a rise in their market shares and total profit realized in other Europeon countries. In those countries the average spending power of their citizens saw an increase and a decrease in their borrowing expenses leading to today's very noticable and probably irreconcilable financial mismatch.


Far from matching that level of sophistication the Occupiers are just as ignorant as everybody else on what is happening. The concrete measures and reforms they have embraced are far from the cure-all they've proclaimed the Glass-Steagall Act (It's called the “Volcker Rule” nowadays) would be. In the Lehman aftermath there was a huge bank run on the money markets. Which is primarily a source for short-term bank credit. Even if commercial banking activities were separate from investment banking any crisis that seriously harmed one would threaten the solvency of the other. This is the dilemma our fearless leaders face.

I don't think the Occupiers deserve a lot of credit for waking Americans up to the fact they're getting screwed either. They just want their uninterrupted economic prosperity back. A sentiment I don't have a lot of sympathy for anymore. Seeing as practically nobody had a problem with the economic bubble while it was being blown in the first place. It was only when it started to threaten their slice of the American dream did the masses of people start to care about excessive Wall Street banker bonuses. What OWS basically boils down to is a lot of unproductive street theater. Which other activist causes tried and succeeded at co-opting. (Which is why Occupy Portland really cares about the fluoridation of Portland's water.) It lacks the clarity, organization, and inspired leadership other mass movements like the civil rights movement possessed. Despite all that it's given politically discontent and economically dispossessed people a banner to rally under. Which is why the political elite seem to be so scared of and are quickly passing all sorts of laws against public protesting.

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Old Aug 20, 2012, 02:28 PM 7 #69 of 73
Thanks for that report, Watts. Next up after the break: Linda, is it Panda Monday? I think it just might be. Stay tuned!

I was speaking idiomatically.
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Watts
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Old Aug 21, 2012, 06:44 PM Local time: Aug 21, 2012, 04:44 PM 1 #70 of 73
Thanks for that report, Watts. Next up after the break: Linda, is it Panda Monday? I think it just might be. Stay tuned!
Hah! There couldn't have been a better parody example of why OWS failed.

Don't engage potential supporters. Don't listen to your opposition. Don't debase yourself by involving yourself in a political debate. Oh, that's healthy for a democracy! At least nobody should be surprised that American politics is devolving into overly emotional hysteria.

You sir, are a GIANT among peanuts. I bid you good day!

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?
Old Aug 21, 2012, 06:53 PM 2 #71 of 73
Thanks again, Watts, for that exciting PSA on how to give a fuck. Now back to our Kitten Power Hour with Janet and Tyrone. We sure love those playful kittens. Don't we, Linda? Also, don't miss "I'm a huge raging cunt" at eleven.

How ya doing, buddy?
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Old Aug 21, 2012, 06:59 PM 3 #72 of 73
"I'm a huge raging cunt" moved to 12:30, replaced by Knight Rider reruns

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Last edited by The unmovable stubborn; Aug 21, 2012 at 07:00 PM. Reason: This member got a little too post happy.
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Old Aug 21, 2012, 09:44 PM #73 of 73
Those Knight Rider or 2008 reruns?

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Jam it back in, in the dark.
It was lunchtime at Wagstaff.
Touching butts had been banned by the evil Headmaster Frond.
Suddenly, Tina Belcher appeared in the doorway.
She knew what she had to do.
She touched Jimmy Jr's butt and changed the world.

Last edited by wvlfpvp; Aug 21, 2012 at 09:47 PM. Reason: This member got a little too post happy.
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