Color Banding on LCD's?

I've been experiencing some minor, horizontal lines while using my PS3 on my new TV

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-WgDH0lSs1eY/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?search=westinghouse&i=647LVM37W3

. I am told this is called "Color Banding", which results in the sudden shift between bright and dark colors.

In this video I took,

http://www.sendspace.com/file/x56e7b

you should be able to make out the lines if you focus on the stairs between audience members. This also occurs in Resistance, during indoor areas or up on the sky. Even when using Avia Home Theater to calibrate my set, the banding can still be seen.

I was told by a friend that this is a normal thing in most LCD sets, and that I shouldn't be worried. I asked another person, though, who says that it isn't very common in newer sets, but supports my theory that the banding may only be apparent on a select few games; I haven't noticed these lines on more colorful games like Genji 2 or Lemmings. I have noticed it a couple of times on PS2 games, however, though they're a bit harder to see.

I ran my PC through the TV and did a sort of test, posting wallpapersized pics of solid colors. In colors like red, green, blue, etc, I didn't notice any banding, but on gray I could make the lines out.

So I'm now asking for opinions from HDTV owners in this forum. Is the banding a common thing, and I shouldn't worry about it? Or is this a warning sign that something might be wrong with my TV, and I should ask for a replacement? I've been quite concerned with this, and I would greatly appreciate opinions from people who know this sort of thing (Dayvon).

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Yeah the grey banding thing can be common in lower-end LCDs. NOTE: just because it is common doesn't mean it isn't a defect. If I remember correctly, it has something to do with backlighting.

Generally, most people that have banding will try to RMA/return/exchange their LCD. Not everyone does, because as you said, it's not that noticeable in most situations. Personally, I would try to exchange with the company you bought it from. If that doesn't seem to be working, then I would contact the LCD manufacturer and try to go through their process of returns/exchanges.

This could get ugly if you've had the set for over 3 months (90 days), but giving it a try is worth it. Many people say screw it and just ignore it. Getting a HDTV can be a spotty experience. Between dead pixels or leaking-light corners (like mine has ) getting a "perfect" set is nearly impossible. Think about whether you want to try and go through the process (not having a set for awhile too), and know that doing so may get you a better unit, or worse one (banding w/ dead pixels?). If it's worth it to you to be rid of the banding because it is distracting you, jump on it ASAP because the longer you wait, the harder it will be.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I've been looking for an HDTV as well. Most people seem to be going for LCD screens. What about Plasma displays? I don't know much about those, but I've heard the complaints that the bulbs die with 2-3 years and whatnot. Higher cost would be another factor, I guess. I don't know. They aren't THAT bad, are they?

From what I've seen, they have superior image quality to the tune of a 10000:1 contrast ratio and virtually no response time.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

LOL didn't notice you had a link to the TV, fellow Westy owner! So yeah, from Crutchfield, I'd definitely get in contact with them. You may have to pay for shipping back, which might be quite the bitch of money, but hey, you paid for a good unit.

DOUBLE LOL
I was about to post a link to the www.avsforum.com Westy 37w3 thread and noticed you were already posting there!!

Okay so I watched your video and I can't really tell what I'm looking for. But you did it right, if you have a solid grey background from VGA/DVI, and you can see lines either up/down or left/right that appear as different colors/brightnesses of grey, then you have banding.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Yeah, the people in AVS haven't been any help. I've asked time and again for PS3 owners to compare their sets, but I haven't heard any confirmation whether they have the same issue or not.

I recently tried the Black Hawk Down 1080p trailer, and didn't notice any banding whatsoever. I haven't noticed it in any cable TV programming either. That's why I'd like to think that it has more to do with the quality of games rather than the set itself.

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NOTE: just because it is common doesn't mean it isn't a defect. If I remember correctly, it has something to do with backlighting.

Well here's the thing, how can I tell whether the set has too much banding that it would be considered "defective", or should it not have it period?

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Personally, I would try to exchange with the company you bought it from. If that doesn't seem to be working, then I would contact the LCD manufacturer and try to go through their process of returns/exchanges.

Well that's the problem. Crutchfield no longer carries this TV. If I were to return it, it would have to be a for a straight refund, and no other place sells it for the same price (which is pretty much my price limit). If I were to have Westinghouse exchange it, I wouldn't want to have to pay for the shipping and handling, unless they cover that (which I doubt).

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leaking-light corners

Could you explain this further? Because I've noticed on the top right of my screen, when pitch black (like say, when a game is loading), I could make out a very faint trail of light, sort of leaking like you said. I don't think this has affected the picture whatsoever, since I fired up Silent Hill just to make sure.

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Okay so I watched your video and I can't really tell what I'm looking for.

If you mean the video in this thread, look at the stairs as I move the camera left and right.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Render

I've been looking for an HDTV as well. Most people seem to be going for LCD screens. What about Plasma displays? I don't know much about those, but I've heard the complaints that the bulbs die with 2-3 years and whatnot. Higher cost would be another factor, I guess. I don't know. They aren't THAT bad, are they?

From what I've seen, they have superior image quality to the tune of a 10000:1 contrast ratio and virtually no response time.

Response time depends on the LCD/Plasma.

Here's a short summary for how it works. LCDs are lower cost at the same size and resolution as plasmas. They are all backlit however, so black is never "truly" black. This is a very noticable in a theatre-esqe situation (aka no sunlight, no light in the room). LCDs tend to try to compensate for this by having backlight control to lower or heighten the amount of light coming from the display. Plasmas do have better picture quality overall (aka color/contrast...truly black blacks).

Response times are a fairly null point for both units. 16ms or 4ms can look almost identical. Alot of people confuse response time for "fade" time. See when a pixel becomes, say blue, then the next moment turns grey, the crystal/phosphor has to change from blue to grey. Though the electric current is saying grey, the crystal/phosphor still might be changing. This is what can cause "blurring" or ghosting that some people complain about. Response time can help this, but older LCDs had problems with the fade time.

Most LCDs now do not have response/fade issues. If your LCD has 16ms or lower, you will more than most likely be good to go.

As for plasmas lasting 2 years, that is BS. From the Panasonic website,

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Panasonic plasma TVs have a projected life of 60,000 hours before they're only half as bright as when they were new. That's 20+ years at 7 hours a day (which is the average daily viewing time per U.S. household).

Double Post:

Originally Posted by SOLDIER

Well here's the thing, how can I tell whether the set has too much banding that it would be considered "defective", or should it not have it period?

It shouldn't have it, period. The only way to REALLY check though is the grey screen test. Like in the video, is it the lighting affecting the steps? Or is it just the refresh rate of the scaling (if you are HDMI)? The best test is HDMI/DVI grey solid background. Works everytime. If you see varying shades of grey with a solid grey background, you've got banding.

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Well that's the problem. Crutchfield no longer carries this TV. If I were to return it, it would have to be a for a straight refund, and no other place sells it for the same price (which is pretty much my price limit). If I were to have Westinghouse exchange it, I wouldn't want to have to pay for the shipping and handling, unless they cover that (which I doubt).

That can be the suck of buying HDTV through online at a lower price. At a B&M store, you got somewhere to go, and someone to yell at. That's why I picked mine up at Best Buy . How long since you bought the TV?

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Could you explain this further? Because I've noticed on the top right of my screen, when pitch black (like say, when a game is loading), I could make out a very faint trail of light, sort of leaking like you said. I don't think this has affected the picture whatsoever, since I fired up Silent Hill just to make sure.

Leaking light is exactly that. Where the middle of your screen will look dark, and the corners will fade to a brighter shade of grey. Still dark mind you, but not the same color. This a trait that can be common in Westinghouse's and is not something that really can be RMA'd. The best way to see it is throw in a 2.35:1 DVD, turn out the lights, and look at the corners.

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If you mean the video in this thread, look at the stairs as I move the camera left and right.

I do mean the video in the thread. Is it the really thin vertical lines? Or the bright grey to dark grey color shift when moving left to right, respectively?

Double Post:
Found a good pic of light vertical banding...

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

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It shouldn't have it, period.

That's not what Metal Sphere says. According to him, a good majority of LCD's have a tiny bit of banding, and there's hardly such a thing as a "perfect" set.

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The best test is HDMI/DVI grey solid background. Works everytime. If you see varying shades of grey with a solid grey background, you've got banding.

Will either of these do for the test?

http://babyholder.com/images/web_swatches/0782.jpg

http://www.fjwestcott.com/images/pro...makey/gray.jpg

Although I have a VGA connection to run the PC to the TV. I'm expected to get a video card along with DVI cable for christmas.

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How long since you bought the TV?

Less than a month. The 30 day return policy has been extended until the end of January. That makes little difference, unless some incredible sale occured, and I could return this one and use the money to buy a whole new set.

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I do mean the video in the thread. Is it the really thin vertical lines? Or the bright grey to dark grey color shift when moving left to right, respectively?

The lines aren't vertical, they're horizontal (up/down). The color shift, I thought, was the result of those lines. I'm not sure if the two are connected. Also, how wide is the banding in that screen you linked? Seems to take up the whole center of that monitor.

FELIPE NO

A couple test pages...

http://www.construnet.hu/nokia/Monit...itor_test.html

http://www.gdargaud.net/Hack/DeadPixels.html

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Can I link the results using printscreen, or would it have to be something I judge on my own?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by SOLDIER

That's not what Metal Sphere says. According to him, a good majority of LCD's have a tiny bit of banding, and there's hardly such a thing as a "perfect" set.

That is the truth. No HDTVs are perfect. The question is, is it good enough for you.

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Will either of these do for the test?

The easiest way is to set windows desktop to no background, and change the background color. It's all in the display properties tab.

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Less than a month. The 30 day return policy has been extended until the end of January. That makes little difference, unless some incredible sale occured, and I could return this one and use the money to buy a whole new set.

CALL CRUTCHFIELD. They have good customer service. They should help you out.

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The lines aren't vertical, they're horizontal (up/down). The color shift, I thought, was the result of those lines. I'm not sure if the two are connected. Also, how wide is the banding in that screen you linked? Seems to take up the whole center of that monitor.

I really don't trust your PS3 connection as a good test of banding on your LCD. I just really don't. So I can't really say. I see something is wrong, but hell if I know what it is (PS3, HDTV, Camera, video file?).

Look, bottom line is, if you see lines on a solid grey screen from your PC, you have to decide whether you want to go through the hassle of exchanging. My HDTV has bleeding corners. Did I think about taking it back? Yes. Did I? No. Do I still see the bleeding? Yes. Does it bother me? Not really at all.

Same goes for your banding. Live with it, and enjoy your 1080p, or go through the hassle/expense of RMAing it.

Double Post:

Originally Posted by SOLDIER

Can I link the results using printscreen, or would it have to be something I judge on my own?

Something you'd have to judge on your own.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Okay, I downloaded your test, ran my PC to the TV via VGA cable, and I checked out the colors section of the test. I went through all the available colors, one by one. I also set my desktop to gray, as per your instructions.

In what may hopefully be a case of good news, I didn't see any banding whatsoever. Even with these camera shots, they appear perfectly clean.

So what gives? Could this be a problem with the PS3, after all? Is it possible that just the HDMI port suffers from banding, or would it affect the whole TV no matter what output? Could maybe the HDMI cable have anything to do with it? It was bought in monoprice by Metal's recommendation

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&cs_id=1024002&p_id=2282&seq=1&format=2&style=

.

Should I rest easy, now?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I would rest easy.

A good non-defective HDTV does not lie. If you are seeing crap "like" banding, and those tests were/are clean, your PS3, or the game itself, or your HDMI cable is to blame. Getting a different cable might not be a bad idea. But honestly, I'd hold off and chock it up to imperfection.

Just a quick question here, but are Resistance and the NBA game both running 1080p?

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Dayvon

That is the truth. No HDTVs are perfect. The question is, is it good enough for you.

Thank you, Dayvon! I've had to hold my tongue while over at some of my friends' houses when they ask me if there's anything that would make them send the TV back. Because if I actually point out to them several types of artifacts, slightly off colors (often red push), they don't enjoy the set and wind up anxious.


Even with the best connections, cables, sources, ISF calibration, etc... you won't have a truly perfect picture. Enjoy your set, as it's going to look wonderful at its native resolution once you get that video card.

I was speaking idiomatically.

NBA, yes; Resistance however is 720p along with Lemmings and Genji 2 (both which did not appear to have banding).

Okay, I can pretty much confirm the banding is from the PS3's end. Earlier I tried both SOCOM 3 and Burnout Revenge on my PS3 (both on progressive scan) and nearly had a heart attack at all the banding on Burnout's tracks and SOCOM's skies. But just now I tried both on the PS2 (hooked to the same set via component) and nearly breathed a sigh of relief as neither game had the banding seen on the PS3.

This saves me a lot (and I mean A LOT) of grief, but I'll still wait for someone from another forum who plans to check his PS3 tommorow to confirm the banding (if that's what it even is anymore). As to how to fix this issue on the PS3, I'm not sure whether to wait for a firmware upgrade or try switching cables. I've heard a few people mention that they've gotten better results with an HDMI to DVI cable, although there hasn't been reports of any visual improvements.

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by SOLDIER

NBA, yes; Resistance however is 720p along with Lemmings and Genji 2 (both which did not appear to have banding).

Okay, I can pretty much confirm the banding is from the PS3's end. Earlier I tried both SOCOM 3 and Burnout Revenge on my PS3 (both on progressive scan) and nearly had a heart attack at all the banding on Burnout's tracks and SOCOM's skies. But just now I tried both on the PS2 (hooked to the same set via component) and nearly breathed a sigh of relief as neither game had the banding seen on the PS3.

This saves me a lot (and I mean A LOT) of grief, but I'll still wait for someone from another forum who plans to check his PS3 tommorow to confirm the banding (if that's what it even is anymore). As to how to fix this issue on the PS3, I'm not sure whether to wait for a firmware upgrade or try switching cables. I've heard a few people mention that they've gotten better results with an HDMI to DVI cable, although there hasn't been reports of any visual improvements.

It should be worth noting that the PS3's backwards compatibility with PS2 games is absolutely 100% horrid garbage. Textures are trash and blocky, colors are washed out, and polygon edges are jaggy like a serrated steak knife. It's no wonder that your PS2 games actually look better on the PS2 itself.

FELIPE NO

I'm aware of that, but I was worried when the banding appeared in PS3-legit games. But let's crunch numbers; if I don't see it on PC mode, or on cable TV mode, or very very little of it on PS2 mode, and probably none whatsoever on GC mode (this requires further testing), then it has to be a problem on the PS3's end. The question is how to fix it, or when it'll fix itself (firmware).

I was concerned mostly because I hadn't heard any PS3 owners bitch about it (and they bitch about a lot of things), and Blu Ray movies didn't have this issue whatsoever (drive is seperate from the drive for games?).

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

It probably just has to do with the coding in the games. I noticed that one of the guys on AVS forum mentioned that a lower color depth can produce such banding. And he's totally right. 32bit color has many shades of grey, whereas 16bit color has alot less.

It could be that a few of these early PS3 games are running in a lower bit-color-depth. I could easily see them using this as a way to boost performance while being indetectable to 99% of people. Trying to have any graphics system outside the new $600 8800's push 1920x1080 is asking too much. And they were really pushing the envelope to finish these games and have them running well. Probably just early release imperfections/cut-corners.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I'd be happy if that was the case, although I still have some slight suspictions as I haven't heard anyone in AVS complain about this. It's mostly been that one dipshit going on and on and on about the flickering issue.

I'll try a few Gamecube games just to be safe.

Double Post:
Tried Soul Calibur II. Almost no banding (a little seen in Astaroth's pea-soup level)

Tried MGS:TTS. Tons of banding This TV doesn't like gray shades. I almost feel like I'm back to square one. Maybe I should call Westinghouse after all.

There's nowhere I can't reach.